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Media Manage 29.97 Offline -> 23.98 For Recapture?

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Ken Peltan
Media Manage 29.97 Offline -> 23.98 For Recapture?
on Mar 11, 2008 at 10:02:49 pm

Hello All!

I work at a high-end trailer house, and whenever we need to online something at 1080psf23.98 we go through a long and annoying process in order to convert from our 29.97 NTSC offline into the 23.98 frame rate. I feel like there must be a better way to do this.

Here is the current workflow (using Cinema Tools & EDL's):

1. Export 29.97 EDL's for each video track of the offline.
2. Take each EDL into Cinema Tools, go to File->Export->Converted EDL->24FPS from 30FPS
3. Take each 23.98 converted EDL and import into FCP as 1080psf23.98 sequence. Combine all tracks into a master sequence.
4. Recapture all footage at 1080psf23.98
5. Recreate all motion, effects or anything else "fancy" that isn't included in an EDL


Step #5 is the one that burns me. I just onlined the same trailer in SD, and the whole process using media manager took about a minute plus the time to recapture.

Media manager or XML export/import will not allow me to change the frame rate when creating an offline sequence. Since my offline edit was at 29.97, I can only create an offline sequence to recapture from in 29.97

Is there anyone out there who has found a way to make this work more smoothly, without having to go through my long 5 step process that makes me feel like I am re-inventing the edited wheel.

Thanks!

-Ken

We are using FCP 6.0.2 for the HD online process, etc, etc.



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Aaron Neitz
Re: Media Manage 29.97 Offline -> 23.98 For Recapture?
on Mar 11, 2008 at 10:11:07 pm

Not really. Your best bet is to digitize your source material at ProRes or DVCPRO-HD for your offline edit. Then it's a simple matter of recapturing at uncompressed HD later.

It's a joy to work in 24fps all the way, no pesky 3:2, and ProRes looks incredible and can run off FW800



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Shane Ross
Re: Media Manage 29.97 Offline -> 23.98 For Recapture?
on Mar 11, 2008 at 10:12:33 pm

I suggest STOP making DV 29.97 masters and start working in HD. A great codec for this would be DVCPRO HD 720p at 23.98. About twice the data rate of DV, and you are already in an HD 16:9 realm and running the proper frame rate.

This codec is used on HD features, like Zodiak.



Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD now for sale!
http://www.LFHD.net
Read my blog!


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Ken Peltan
Re: Media Manage 29.97 Offline -> 23.98 For Recapture?
on Mar 11, 2008 at 10:23:45 pm

In an ideal world I would use a 23.98 workflow for the whole process. Whenever I post super anything that I am doing that is always my thinking.

Unfortunately for us, the only option that the film studios are willing to give us for our offline edits is at best DigiBeta. Therefore, and again I repeat unfortunately, we have no other option.

Knowing this... does anyone have any idea how to solve this problem???

-Ken



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Kevin Monahan
Re: Media Manage 29.97 Offline -> 23.98 For Recapture?
on Mar 11, 2008 at 10:32:10 pm

How about working at DVCPro HD 24P and then adding pull down when outputting the 29.97 D-Beta dubs?

Kevin Monahan

Take My FCP Master's Workshop!

fcpworld.com

Pres. SF Cutters


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Sean ONeil
Re: Media Manage 29.97 Offline -> 23.98 For Recapture?
on Mar 12, 2008 at 4:24:49 am

[Ken Peltan] "the only option that the film studios are willing to give us for our offline edits is at best DigiBeta. Therefore, and again I repeat unfortunately, we have no other option."

You can capture Digibeta at 23.98 with any Kona or Decklink product. Don't know about the other studios, but I get Digi masters from SPE all the time. They always have clean cadence and the A-frame starts at the even second mark like it's supposed to.

You don't even have to capture it in 23.98. You can capture in NTSC and then run it through Cinema Tools. In fact, that's probably the best option.

Sean


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Piri Miller
Re: Media Manage 29.97 Offline -> 23.98 For Recapture?
on Nov 12, 2008 at 11:13:24 pm

I am in somewhat the same situation as Ken. I am currently using a Blackmagic Decklink HD extreme with our FCP station. So, if I have a downconverted 29.97 digibeta which I would guess has framerate conversion and pull-down applied from a 23.98 HDCAM master. Is it the case that the Decklink card can do a reverse pull-down on the digibeta to conform back to 23.98 to match the master? If so, is there an Easy Setup to use for this? Or are there custom settings to change?

Perhaps wishful thinking...
Trying to convince Post Sup to just rent an HDCAM deck. Would truly make this easier...but I like the Blackmagic option since we have the tool at our disposal. Just trying to make sure I understand.

Thanks,

Piri




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Shane Ross
Re: Media Manage 29.97 Offline -> 23.98 For Recapture?
on Nov 12, 2008 at 11:22:06 pm

[Piri Miller] "Is it the case that the Decklink card can do a reverse pull-down on the digibeta to conform back to 23.98 to match the master?"

Nope. Capture cards cannot perform frame rate conversions. This is something you will have to do later. Reverse Telecine option from FCP, or open Cinema Tools and do it there. That would make it wise to rent the HDCAM player...J30. Hmmm...if you rented the J30, it would play out 23.98...so you should be able to capture as 23.98. Might have to make a custom setting for this. I'd capture as DV for offline.

Worth testing.



Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Piri Miller
Re: Media Manage 29.97 Offline -> 23.98 For Recapture?
on Nov 13, 2008 at 5:23:45 pm

Yeah....pretty much what I thought.
Just been reading some confusing posts...
Wanted some expert advice to convince post super to just rent the darn HDCAM deck. Seems to me it will just save money and time in the long run.

Cheers,

Piri


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Kevin Monahan
Re: Media Manage 29.97 Offline -> 23.98 For Recapture?
on Mar 11, 2008 at 10:26:02 pm

Hi Ken,
Your method is the correct one for going from a 29.97 project to a 23.98 one (pg. 207 of the Cinema Tools Manual).

The boys are correct (from page 205 of the Cinema Tools Manual):
When the online system also uses Final Cut Pro, it is highly recommended that you
perform the offline edit using a 24 fps timebase. This allows you to open the project
with the online system and maintain all special settings, effects, and filters—elements
that are not included in an EDL.


Is it at all possible to start working at 24P ProRes or DVCPro HD? Otherwise, you are stuck with your current workflow.

Kevin Monahan

Take My FCP Master's Workshop!

fcpworld.com

Pres. SF Cutters


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Shane Ross
Re: Media Manage 29.97 Offline -> 23.98 For Recapture?
on Mar 11, 2008 at 10:29:43 pm

Can you not reverse telecine the captured DV footage to get to 23.98? That would be the next thing I'd test.



Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD now for sale!
http://www.LFHD.net
Read my blog!


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Sean ONeil
Re: Media Manage 29.97 Offline -> 23.98 For Recapture?
on Mar 12, 2008 at 3:34:55 am

Like these guys said, doing you offlines in 24p is the ultimate solution. You'll still have to change motion settings whenever you change the frame size in FCP (Avid doesn't have this problem supposedly).

I cut trailers too BTW. If you do the offline in 29.97, one trick I've learned is when it's time to finish, capture the whole HD version of the movie in 23.98. You can do offline quality HD or do ProRes if space is an issue.

Then change the timecode format of the newly captured movie to 30 NDF (Modify -> Timecode) and then reconnect the media to the original project. Copy and paste attributes to fix most of the Motion tab settings.

Once the sequence is in order, I believe you can change the timecode back to 24-base (in order to keep it non-destructive). From that point, you can use Media Manager and then recapture used media only in Uncompressed quality.

Sounds like a lot, but it's a hell of a lot better than doing the EDL thing.

One thing, it only works if the offline has NDF timecode. You can't assign DF timecode to 24p footage.

Sean


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