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online vs. offline editing

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kyletroxell
online vs. offline editing
on Nov 28, 2007 at 2:55:48 am

What's the difference? Is one better over the other? I've heard people saying they do their offline edit first and then their online edits. Does that make it go faster? How do you start and offline edit and an online edit?

I've never really understood anything about offline or online edits. I haven't, and probably will never, look it up in the manual, mostly b/c I don't have the patience for it.

ANYTHING would be great.
THANK YOU.


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walter biscardi
Re: online vs. offline editing
on Nov 28, 2007 at 3:02:27 am

Offline is typically editing with low rez footage on a large project where storage is an issue. You capture and edit with all low rez footage until you have the project cut.

Then you recapture all the final footage at full quality and finish the project for the Online.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.

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Sycophant
Re: online vs. offline editing
on Nov 28, 2007 at 3:11:48 am

This comes up a lot with the 'younguns' of the DV era...
Here is a thread from the Avid forums about it.

Basically in older times, when non-linear editors were quite different the editing process worked very differently. Limitations of computing power and disk space meant that digitised footage was often much lower quality than the original recording. This was 'offline quality'.

The offline editor digitised all the source footage at low res and edited from that.

The online editor took the EDL from that offline edit and then recompiled the problem at full quality with only the clips required to make the finished product. This online process is also where effects and transitions were created, as these features were often unavailable on the offline system.

Increasingly the distinction between the two is blurred, as computers get more powerful and video is increasingly all digital (and often file based). It is now possible (and common) to have all the footage available to the editor at full resolution for editing, and it can all be finished in one pass.

Often now, the online editing process would be more accurately referred to as 'finishing' where an online editors polishes the edit for final broadcast. This may include standardising transitions, tidying up or adding baseline keys and graphics, colour grading and ensuring all necessary standards are met.

Still in large productions the offline/online workflow is somewhat maintained, with an online editor reconforming the program from a supplied EDL or timeline from the original tapes.

The specific expectations and roles vary from place to place and job to job, but generally the offline editor cuts the show, and the online editor finishes it for release.


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Sean ONeil
Re: online vs. offline editing
on Nov 28, 2007 at 4:04:15 am

Sycophant,

I GUARANTEE you that he isn't going to read your post. His self-proclaimed A.D.D. wouldn't allow it :).


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Paul Provost
Re: online vs. offline editing
on Nov 28, 2007 at 4:37:09 am

also you could look at offline editing as the creative process (choosing which part of which shots to use in which order - the storytelling)
and online as the technical process of making sure all the video/audio levels are correct, using the highest quality possible, while adding all final graphics, effects, titling etc.


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Sycophant
Re: online vs. offline editing
on Nov 28, 2007 at 8:03:48 am

Yeah, many people look at Online as 'button pushing' which can be a bit demoralising. I had one Online job where I was very much seen as a monkey - and then another where my work was really respected.

With online editors doing more and more colour grading that brings a bit more 'creativity' into that part of the process too.


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Winston A. Cely
Re: online vs. offline editing
on Nov 28, 2007 at 2:32:48 pm

I think this depends a great deal on the freedom the editor has in general on the project. Many of the projects I'm involved in, the offline section could be viewed as the more button pushing section because the producer or director are much more involved in calling the shots. While in the online section, the editor (in my experience) has more freedom in how the edit is tweaked and polished and how the graphics and other finishing touches are used and completed.

Winston A. Cely
Editor/Owner | Della St. Media, LLC

"If God could do the tricks we can do, He'd be a happy Man." - Peter O'Toole - "The Stuntman"

Mac Pro 3GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon
4 GB RAM | Final Cut Studio 5.1.4 | Aja Kona LHe


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Bob Flood
Re: online vs. offline editing
on Nov 28, 2007 at 5:21:48 pm

sweet

however, the only thing lacking (as is usually the case with avid) is personalitys

most creative types always welcome a fresh eye and viewpoint. part of the process is that when you go to "online" you have an individual who has an eye for not only color and sound, but flow and pacing and content. Many is the time that when the rough cut got to me it was still really rough, and needed a lot of air added here and taken away there as well as all the other stuff.

I think this is the biggest reason for this 2 stage process, and usually the one you hear the least about.

my 2.12 cents


"I like video because its so fast!"

Bob Flood
Greer & Associates, Inc.


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rafalaos
Re: online vs. offline editing
on Nov 28, 2007 at 12:14:20 pm

Off-line and On-line are terms from the past. People used to shoot in Betacam or 1'C and make a copy in VHS or U-matic with the TC burnt up. You edit in a cheap format and them bring a shoot list or EDL to re-make the editing with the high quality format. Video desks were (are) expensive, and like that you save money.
Now we are in a NL world. In the moment that you download to an HD, you'r Off-line. You may edit with a lower standard and recapture when the editing is finished. Save space in the HDs.
Daily news programs still working on-line When you are in a hurry you just push the tape inside the desk, and turn the shuttle. No waist of time downloading.
Rafael

PPC G5 2x2Gh 4GbRAM/BlackMagic SD/PMBP 17"Core2Duo 4GbRAM
JVC DTV-17"/FCS2/AE CS3/COMBUSTION/SHAKE


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KyleTroxell
Re: online vs. offline editing
on Nov 28, 2007 at 4:10:33 pm

Actually that all made sense! I had to read it a few times but it all makes sense.

My question is how would i bring in HD1080i footage to low res? Would I bring in the footage and go to the RT button on the side of the timeline? Any tutorials on logging footage or setting up offline or online?


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Peterd
Re: online vs. offline editing
on Nov 28, 2007 at 4:19:12 pm

Depends on what you have available. What format are you using? If it's HDV the file sizes are usually small enough you don't need to work with low-res versions. If it's HDCAM most HDCAM decks have a built-in firewire port that will allow you to output downconverted DV footage right into the computer.


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KyleTroxell
Re: online vs. offline editing
on Nov 28, 2007 at 4:31:58 pm

I'm editing in HDV. I know my way around FCP but there are still a lot of things I do not know. Like proper log and capturing, online-offline etc etc.


So with HDV, the sizes are small enough, that if doesn't matter if I do online or offline?


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rafalaos
Re: online vs. offline editing
on Nov 28, 2007 at 5:26:02 pm

HDV files take in your HD the same space than DV.
rafael

PPC G5 2x2Gh 4GbRAM/BlackMagic SD/PMBP 17"Core2Duo 4GbRAM
JVC DTV-17"/FCS2/AE CS3/COMBUSTION/SHAKE


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David Roth Weiss
Re: online vs. offline editing
on Nov 28, 2007 at 6:35:50 pm

[KyleTroxell] "I'm editing in HDV. I know my way around FCP but there are still a lot of things I do not know. Like proper log and capturing, online-offline etc etc.


So with HDV, the sizes are small enough, that if doesn't matter if I do online or offline?"


Because hard drives are so cheap these days, its best to avoid the the entire concept of recapturing, and just capture at the final resolution from the start. As Rafalaos said, HDV and DV are the same file size, both 13gb per hour so it makes little sense to do a two step process to save space, as no space is saved. In fact, with HDV, many are now capturing as Pro Res, which takes up quite a bit more hard drive space, simply because its full raster no anamorphic sqeezing and unsqueezing, its I-frame based with real video frames and no long GOP computing demands, and because its 10-bit with better color space.

One additional thing that no one else mentioned... A great rule of thumb if you ever do offline/online with an eventual recapture pass, is to make sure to keep everything at the same framerate and same aspect ratio if at all possible. Where the process becomes really gets complicated is shooting at somethng like 24p and offline ediitng at 29.97, then onlining at 24p. Even very expereinced editors get that messed up all the the time.

David

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY™

A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing, and Indie Film & Documentary forums.





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Alla Kovgan
Re: online vs. offline editing
on Dec 15, 2007 at 3:52:43 pm

Dear David and folks at Creative COW!

We shot on Panasonic AJ-HDX900.
We shot in 1080/24p on tapes.
I downconverted all the material to SD - that is my off-line version.

I plan to stay in 24p through on-line in hopes to output both on HD and 35mm.

What settings in FCPRO should I use when capturing my SD 24p material?

(1)
Shall I use the 2:3:3:2 pulldown setting but keep 23.98 as my frame rate?

or

(2)
Shall I use the 2:3:3:2 pulldown setting with 29.97 (as FCPro offers by default)?

or

(3)
Shall I create a setting with no pulldown but keep 23.98?

Please advise!

thanks so much
Alla


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