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FCP 6 disappointment - same old media/capture tool

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Neil Sadwelkar
FCP 6 disappointment - same old media/capture tool
on Apr 15, 2007 at 8:42:32 pm

Same old media tool
Still needs clip to be same for relink.

Same old capture tool. No live VU meters, no TC display

Neil

FCP Editor, Mumbai, India.
Completely PAL.


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Kevin Wild
Re: FCP 6 disappointment - same old media/capture tool
on Apr 15, 2007 at 8:47:35 pm

I agree 100%. I welcome the new stuff, but gads they need to fix the media manager and capture tool. UGH!

Lots of other little bugs (nesting, scopes, etc.) that need to be worked out, too. I hope they are.

Come on, Apple!




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Sean ONeil
Re: FCP 6 disappointment - same old media/capture tool
on Apr 15, 2007 at 9:46:23 pm

I agree with the weak capture tool. But can somebody explain exactly what is wrong with Media Manager, why so many people hate it, and what you would prefer instead?

I have never understood what is supposedly wrong with it. It's had some nasty bugs over the versions, but when it works like its supposed to I don't see what's wrong with it.

Sean


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David Battistella
Re: FCP 6 disappointment - same old media/capture tool
on Apr 15, 2007 at 10:16:29 pm



Plus one on Media Manager. The only problem is that it has different lanuage than the AVID tool. OTher thatn that it is a very, very powerful yet under used tool in FCP.

David.




Peace and Love :)


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Kevin Wild
Re: FCP 6 disappointment - same old media/capture tool
on Apr 15, 2007 at 10:16:36 pm

Have you had a need for it before? It's horrible. Try telling it to delete all unused media except for what you have in a sequence. I cannot believe they didn't change this...it's the #1 complaint for the past 5 years.


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JamieWorsfold
Re: FCP 6 disappointment - same old media/capture tool
on Apr 15, 2007 at 10:21:25 pm

The no.1 complaint?
I've never heard of anyone complain about that aspect before.

The only complaint I've heard of Media Manager is the bugs over the years. And they seem to pretty much have sorted that.


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CharlieX
Re: FCP 6 disappointment - same old media/capture tool
on Apr 15, 2007 at 10:39:28 pm

not only that:

Color? I get all excited about decent color tools in FCP6, only to find out it a "round trip" application. And then "round trip" to Motion for compositing tools.

Nothing has changed. Might as well stick to FCP 5, After Effects, and Combustion at this rate.

APPLE! WTF?!!? PLEASE PUT SERIOUS COLOR, BEZIER MASKS, AND TRACKING in your stupid program. We're going to have to go back to Avid Symphony if you keep this stupid nonsense up. DESIGN SOFTWARE FOR PROFESSIONALS - NOT WEDDING VIDEOGRAPHERS!

You want to kill Avid? Then stop making 30 applications to handle things that should be BUILT IIN!!!!!

(breathes deeply.)


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Nate Weaver
Re: FCP 6 disappointment - same old media/capture tool
on Apr 15, 2007 at 10:48:54 pm

What?

I wouldn't want all those color tools trying to clog up one filter panel or viewer tab. That's insane.

In any aspect of the business that I've been in, more complex tools need discreet steps to do properly. A "round-trip" application, given that the path works correctly without hiccups, seems to be just what the problem needs.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I'd rather have a better tool to do the job, not a compromised one stuffed into a place that won't fit.



New website, new work online:
http://www.nateweaver.net


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Kevin Wild
Re: FCP 6 disappointment - same old media/capture tool
on Apr 15, 2007 at 10:55:08 pm

Personally, I would also rather have color correction built in, since we use it every single project.

Yes, over the years Media Management would be the #1 complaint for most everyone that does broadcast and corporate work. Someone else can chime in with the one they've heard the most, but I would say this is by far the thing that AVID still kills FCP on.

That and the capture tool...again, it's been over 10 years with AVID that you could start logging your clip as it's being captured. Also, it would be nice to see levels as capture takes place.

Next a sequence, go change it and come back into your sequence. Nothing changed. D'oh. You have to unrender it and rerender it for the nested revision to take place.

Again, I'm loving some of the NEW features they're incorporating and the under-the-hood stuff they seem to be doing, but some of these things I mentioned need to be fixed. Especially for those of us that work on both AVID and FCP, it's painful to try and move media and/or capture and such...

KW


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NICK B
Re: FCP 6 disappointment - same old media/capture tool
on Apr 15, 2007 at 11:14:08 pm

Capture tool , how 1989

The future is tapeless !



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Bret Williams
Re: FCP 6 disappointment - same old media/capture tool
on Apr 15, 2007 at 11:31:54 pm

Yeah, well tapeless still requires logging and caputre silly. AND, the capture tool for P2 material is actually far superior to the tape capture tool. Bizarre. Seems they could combine the two instead of having 2 interfaces.


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Bill Marcellus
Re: FCP 6 disappointment - same old media/capture tool
on Apr 15, 2007 at 11:02:51 pm

A "roundtrip" is a problem? Isn't a trip from the beloved Avid to a DaVinci even farther than a roundtrip within two integrated apps?

Apple have taken the excellent Silicon Color Final Touch program and integrated it into the FCP Studio suite. If you haven't used this program (and it appears that you haven't) it TOTALLY blows the doors off of any color correction tools within any Avid short of a full out Nitris. Of course, a Nitris costs considerably more than $1295 (or $499 for the upgrade).

The addition of 5.1 sound mixing within Soundtrack Pro is another awesome addition to the FCS suite. That alone saves another $1000 to purchase Logic Pro...or worse, a Pro Tools HD system for about $25,000 (Pro Tools LE doesn't offer 5.1 mixing).

All in all, Apple have for a change exceeded my expectations with this release. I purchased Final Touch as a standalone almost two years ago for $5,000 and now it is included in FCS!

I think that there is a lot to be excited about in this release. Or you could always go spend $45-50,000 for a "professional" tool like an Adrenaline and watch it crash 4-6 times a day. Been there, done that...no thanks.


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CharlieX
Re: FCP 6 disappointment - same old media/capture tool
on Apr 15, 2007 at 11:19:13 pm

I guess I'm aksing for too much.... Yes, we have Discreet Smoke and Flame in the house. Do you realize what kind of circles Smoke runs around FCP for finishing???

Guess that's exactly why a Smoke license costs you the price of an import sports car.

I know. I know. If I want a finishing tool our of FCP, then they should make an offshoot. Much like Avid did.

Yes I know I'm asking for too much. But as somone who does online with FCP for high end projects, I guess I want more than the price of admission really can offer.

For the 2 years of nothing spectacular that FCP has offered up, FCP 6 really is a letdown. Admit it. Yes, we'll still use it, but it's still a little anemic.


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rcPics
Re: FCP 6 disappointment - same old media/capture tool
on Apr 15, 2007 at 11:29:53 pm

Yet still a bargain for $1299/$499 upg. Aside from the cool AJA interface, I do agree that a serious 'Extreme' package would've been nice to see, instead of touching upon it with an upgraded 'Studio'. It could be wise to really go for a full-blown take-no-prisoners package with what many above have mentioned. It would cost accordingly, of course, but could do even more to move into larger-scale commitments. Maybe in another year?



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Bret Williams
Re: FCP 6 disappointment - same old media/capture tool
on Apr 15, 2007 at 11:35:50 pm

Perhaps EXTREME is out there but requires coreimage, within Leopard. They had to release something at NAB, but the delay of Leopard put a damper on something big I'm sure.


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rcPics
Re: FCP 6 disappointment - same old media/capture tool
on Apr 15, 2007 at 11:46:58 pm

That sounds logical....probably put a hold on it when they decided to work on their little phone.

;-)



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CharlieX
Re: FCP 6 disappointment - same old media/capture tool
on Apr 16, 2007 at 1:04:33 am

Totally. FCP is an editing program, not a fnished package. And at THAT price - FCP gives you more than anyone else. End of story.


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walter biscardi
Re: FCP 6 disappointment - same old media/capture tool
on Apr 16, 2007 at 1:07:53 am

[CharlieX] "Totally. FCP is an editing program, not a fnished package. And at THAT price - FCP gives you more than anyone else. End of story."

As Apple clearly showed today, FCP Studio is where the game is at. Instead of one application trying to do everything ok, here's a suite of apps that each do what they do very well and collectively form an incredible tool for the artist.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

Read my blog! http://blogs.creativecow.net/WalterBiscardi


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NICK B
Re: FCP 6 disappointment - same old media/capture tool
on Apr 15, 2007 at 11:41:48 pm

Trouble is Charlie FCP studio 2 will drive those expensive Discrete / Avid Symphony facilities out of business.



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Matt Riley
Re: FCP 6 disappointment - same old media/capture tool
on Apr 16, 2007 at 4:53:35 am

[Bill Marcellus] "If you haven't used this program (and it appears that you haven't) it TOTALLY blows the doors off of any color correction tools within any Avid short of a full out Nitris. Of course, a Nitris costs considerably more than $1295 (or $499 for the upgrade)."

I use an Avid DS every day and I can tell you that color correction isn't exactly one of its strong suits. I actually find Color Finesse to be superior to DS's color corrector in many ways. There is no real-time secondary color correction in DS (and the "selective" color correction is really just a hack built from a simple tree). What DS does kick butt in is effects trees, media management and speed. Raw speed.

Color (neigh, Final Touch) is something to get VERY excited about. The fact that Apple chose to leave it as a separate app means a couple of things. One, that Color is strong enough to stand on its own. And, two, that Apple "gets it" when it comes to a collaborative workflow in a boutique facility (one artist working on the edit, one working on the color, etc. rather than a one-man-band approach).

Yes, FCP 6 seems like it received the least amount of attention in the studio package, but I think the integration and the addition of a real pro-level color grading app more than makes up for it.

-Matt



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Sean ONeil
Re: FCP 6 disappointment - same old media/capture tool
on Apr 18, 2007 at 7:21:00 am

[CharlieX] "
Color? I get all excited about decent color tools in FCP6, only to find out it a "round trip" application. And then "round trip" to Motion for compositing tools.

Nothing has changed. Might as well stick to FCP 5, After Effects, and Combustion at this rate."


Charlie, I love all your posts on this board. But I think you're nuts on this topic.

"Nothing has changed"!?! Maybe it's just not relavant to the work you do, but they had me at Mixed Formats. That alone is huge.

Then there's ProRes. This is a KILLER feature. A near-lossless codec. I've been geri-rigging Final Cut to use Photo-JPEG for a long time. That's how important it is to have virtually Uncompressed quality at 1/20th the size. Not only does this have major benefits to the size and speed requirements of your storage, this means you can have full quality HD running over a SAN. Even an ethernet based SAN like what I use.

As far as the round trip thing, you do have the option to leave these applications open at all times if you want to waste the RAM resources. When they're already open, it's not really much different than opening up the 3-way.

Sean


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Sean ONeil
Re: FCP 6 disappointment - same old media/capture tool
on Apr 18, 2007 at 7:15:20 am

[Kevin Wild] "
Have you had a need for it before? It's horrible. Try telling it to delete all unused media except for what you have in a sequence. I cannot believe they didn't change this...it's the #1 complaint for the past 5 years."


What are you talking about? There was a bug where it wouldn't work if the media was already offline. But they fixed that a long time ago. I use "Delete Unused Media" constantly. It works. End of story.

Sean


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walter biscardi
Re: FCP 6 disappointment - same old media/capture tool
on Apr 15, 2007 at 11:46:19 pm

Anybody who is disappointed I'm assuming was not in the room today?

I'm incredibly excited about this release.

We wanted realtime multi-format editing. You've got that with SD/HD in the same timeline AND variable frame rates in the same timeline.

You've got Apple Pro 4:2:2 codec for HD editing which is incredibly gorgeous and potentially an alternative for the DVCPro HD codec.

We wanted better media management. FCP Studio has some serious media management going on under the hood as was evidenced in the auto updating in Soundtrack Pro. In fact Media management was all we were talking about after show with the addition of Final Cut Server.

Motion now has 3D cameras and Lights.

Soundtrack Pro has ridiculous sound processing controls including 5.1 support.

You can't put a tool like Color inside Final Cut Studio, it has to be a separate app and you now have a tool that was $25,000 4 months ago for free inside FCP. Yes, I said $25,000 because this supports all the way up to 2K which was priced at $25,000. If you're disappointed you have to go ALL the way out to Color using the incredibly difficult "Export to Color" command, then I'm sorry, you really need to go spend your money somewhere else.

I'm actually much more excited about the entire Final Cut Studio package than I have been for a long time right now.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

Read my blog! http://blogs.creativecow.net/WalterBiscardi


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lasvideo
Re: FCP 6 disappointment - same old media/capture tool
on Apr 15, 2007 at 11:52:02 pm

Walter, your enthusiasm is refreshing and infectious. I am looking forward to hitting the South Convention Hall floor tomorrow!


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NICK B
Re: FCP 6 disappointment - same old media/capture tool
on Apr 16, 2007 at 12:00:56 am

I think anyone who is realy disappointed needs to consider their future in the post production business as there will be people who can produce fantastic creative work with those tools and at far cheaper rates than if working on the old 'high end kit' and not moan about it.





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walter biscardi
Re: FCP 6 disappointment - same old media/capture tool
on Apr 16, 2007 at 12:08:51 am

[NICK B] "I think anyone who is realy disappointed needs to consider their future in the post production business as there will be people who can produce fantastic creative work with those tools and at far cheaper rates than if working on the old 'high end kit' and not moan about it."

I'll add that anyone who is disappointed really needs to look at what is inside that box and then go look at what those exact same options, feature for feature, will cost you anywhere else.

"I'm disappointed because one thing wasn't in there." pretty much disregards the dozens of things that ARE in there and the hundreds of things we don't even know about under the hood. Yes we all wanted to see Leopard and how this will affect us, but geez, even Compressor is a major tool now.

I'm extremely disappointed that I spent $5k last year on a tool that's now free. But what are you going to do? I just need to be able to use that tool better than anyone else out there and that's what I intend to do. What Apple has just for me is to silence all the Avid and Adobe naysayers out there on what FCP Can't Do. Well now it Can and I'm excited.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

Read my blog! http://blogs.creativecow.net/WalterBiscardi


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Andy Edwards
Re: FCP 6 disappointment - same old media/capture tool
on Apr 16, 2007 at 12:16:13 am

[walter biscardi] "'m extremely disappointed that I spent $5k last year on a tool that's now free."

But don't you get the FCP Stduio 2 upgrade for free now? Or is that only the people that bought the 2K version? I know it does not soften the cost hit, but at least it is something.....

Andy


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walter biscardi
Re: FCP 6 disappointment - same old media/capture tool
on Apr 16, 2007 at 12:18:55 am

[Andy Edwards] "
But don't you get the FCP Stduio 2 upgrade for free now? Or is that only the people that bought the 2K version? I know it does not soften the cost hit, but at least it is something....."


Only if you paid the $1,500/year Maintanence fee which I didn't do. At least I can get FCP Studio upgrades for $499 each and I'll take that. It's the colorists who have spent $25,000 on the full 2K version that I really feel bad for.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

Read my blog! http://blogs.creativecow.net/WalterBiscardi


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Bill Marcellus
Re: FCP 6 disappointment - same old media/capture tool
on Apr 16, 2007 at 12:07:30 am

Walter, I couldn't agree with you more!

And, as an earlier poster mentioned, these type of tools will fairly quickly shrink the market for $100K-$250K systems. Remember SGI? They filed for bankruptcy a few months ago. All of the dollars they squeezed out of folks and now all of the Autodesk stuff runs under Linux on stock PCs.

Avid is heading down the same path. They seem to forget that there a LOT of folks working in post who don't have a fatal addiction to anything and everything that has an Avid or Autodesk nameplate affixed to it...probably because these folks have come into the business within the last five years or so.

When folks start writing the checks for their equipment (rather than the facility or TV station they work for writing them) they will see the light pretty quickly. The days of $750-1,000/hr. post suites are numbered.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: FCP 6 disappointment - same old media/capture tool
on Apr 15, 2007 at 11:59:19 pm

[walter biscardi] "Anybody who is disappointed I'm assuming was not in the room today?"

I wasn't there Walter, but I'm very excited too...

DRW


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Kevin Wild
Re: FCP 6 disappointment - same old media/capture tool
on Apr 16, 2007 at 12:26:42 am

Don't get me wrong...I'm very excited about the new features! I just wish they would go back and address the ones that AVID still has a leg up on. I'm so sick of hearing from AVID guys (and agreeing with them) about how much better Media Management and the Capture Tool is. I've been telling them for 6 months..."wait until NAB." So, I was a bit disappointed that it looks like the same Media Manager. Walter, has it been updated? It didn't seem like it had from the website, but I would LOVE to be wrong.

Most of the new features weren't surprising, so pardon the lack of real excitement on my part. Obviously, if you thought about it, we all expected a "Color" type of program and a "Media Server" type app if you've followed Apple's purchases recently. Everyone knew resolution/framerates living together on one timeline was coming, too. I will say they surprised me with how quickly they've integerated these into FCS2 and without charging more. Thank you, Apple!

Don't take my disappointment in a couple non-updates as a general disappointment. I've already ordered 4 upgrades and look forward to receiving them.


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walter biscardi
Re: FCP 6 disappointment - same old media/capture tool
on Apr 16, 2007 at 12:36:54 am

[Kevin Wild] "
Don't get me wrong...I'm very excited about the new features! I just wish they would go back and address the ones that AVID still has a leg up on. I'm so sick of hearing from AVID guys (and agreeing with them) about how much better Media Management and the Capture Tool is. I've been telling them for 6 months..."wait until NAB." So, I was a bit disappointed that it looks like the same Media Manager. Walter, has it been updated? It didn't seem like it had from the website, but I would LOVE to be wrong."


All media management has been updated across the board as far as we can tell with the addition of Final Cut Server and from some of the examples they were showing with Soundtrack / Motion integration. Looks like a LOT of work has been done under the hood. They only had 90 minutes, they could not show us everything they had done, but it really looks like Media management has been completely overhauled.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

Read my blog! http://blogs.creativecow.net/WalterBiscardi


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Kevin Wild
Re: FCP 6 disappointment - same old media/capture tool
on Apr 16, 2007 at 12:49:02 am

Ah, good to know. I may have jumped a little as it looked identical in their demo.

Walter, I'm pretty sure our places are about the same size. I haven't quite wrapped my arms around Final Cut Server yet. Is this something you think you'll use/need? Besides storing demo clips and frequent graphics, what else can this be used for? Judging from the 1 page info it has on the site, it definitely looks like it's aimed more towards news, but tell me if I'm wrong.

KW


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walter biscardi
Re: FCP 6 disappointment - same old media/capture tool
on Apr 16, 2007 at 1:02:02 am

[Kevin Wild] "Besides storing demo clips and frequent graphics, what else can this be used for? Judging from the 1 page info it has on the site, it definitely looks like it's aimed more towards news, but tell me if I'm wrong."

It looks really aimed at news because that's where it's been beta tested at a Los Angeles station, but I'm really seeing that it's a full project management tool. Apple did say it works on the internet so I want to see what that means because they mentioned it being a review and approval tool. I have clients all over the U.S. and while we're using SyncVUE right now, this might be something that works even more efficiently. Especially if my clients out of town can access all the clips and directly point out changes they want. I hope to have some time to speak to the Server folks and I'll let you know what i find out.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

Read my blog! http://blogs.creativecow.net/WalterBiscardi


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adkimery
Re: FCP 6 disappointment - same old media/capture tool
on Apr 16, 2007 at 5:53:52 am

I don't think it's aimed at news exactly. It sounds like a way to keep track of all your digital assets from a single app using meta data. Kinda like how iTunes keeps track of all your music and gives you a nice GUI to use to find it all instead of pecking around in Finder.

The company I currently work for generates about 1 terebyte of media a week (everything from DVCPro HD to DV to still images) and right now we are using a folder based organizational system on an xSan for all 14 of the editors. If FC server works like I think it will we won't have to drill down thru multiple folders looking for assets. We'll just do a search for what we are looking in FC server then drag the asset(s) into FCP. A common "gray area" problem we have right now is if we shoot person X at event Y do we file the footage away by event or by content? W/FC server it won't matter because once the asset is in the system (w/appropirate keywords and other meta data) we can look it up just like you can look up a piece of physical media in an app like PilotWare. I've worked on reality shows where something like this could come in very handy as well.

Also as tapeless acquisition and digital slating moves forward the need for cataloging physical media will disappear and we'll have to keep track of image files and QTs instead of tapes and CDs.


-Andrew


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Sean Lander
Re: FCP 6 disappointment - same old media/capture tool
on Apr 16, 2007 at 2:15:14 pm

Has anyone actually seen a demo of FCP 6's capture tool?
I was hoping for an update too, but am still blown away by Color.
Once learnt this will be a whole new stream or earning power for us.
I've already worked as a grader on many projects. Didn't want to but I just
seem to be the one that people call.

So if you want to separate yourself from the pack, I'd learn Color until it's
like the back of your hand.

I bet it will be a license to print money.


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AdamCJ
Re: FCP 6 disappointment - same old media/capture tool
on Apr 16, 2007 at 2:24:24 pm

"If FC server works like I think it will we won't have to drill down thru multiple folders looking for assets. We'll just do a search for what we are looking in FC server then drag the asset(s) into FCP."

Isn't it like the search feature in Windows? :D
If you name it right and know the name of what you are looking for, just type in the search box and hit search. Hehehe


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adkimery
Re: FCP 6 disappointment - same old media/capture tool
on Apr 16, 2007 at 7:54:54 pm

"Isn't it like the search feature in Windows? :D
If you name it right and know the name of what you are looking for, just type in the search box and hit search. Hehehe"

If that analogy was going to be made it would work more like the "spotlight" feature in OSX which is more more powerful than the search/find feature in Windows. ;) A normal desktop level search can't utilize metadata and can be pretty slow compared to searching done in database apps (which is essentially what FC server is). FC server won't be needed by everyone (especially smaller shops), but I'm looking forward to seeing what it can do as organization by folder and filename is limiting and clunky.


-A


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