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Need Help Converting 29.97 to 23.98 - New to using different frame rates

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Michael Kellam
Need Help Converting 29.97 to 23.98 - New to using different frame rates
on Sep 4, 2006 at 8:05:12 pm

Hi,

I have never used frame rates other than 29.97 before now. For my current project, I shot most of my footage on a DVX100 in 23.98 and imported it with advanced pulldown. Afterward, I decided to use some b-roll from some of our shows which is 29.97 FPS. I wasn't sure the best way to capture the 29.97 footage, so I captured using the same capture settings for the 29.97 as I used for the 23.98. When I added the 29.97 footage to the timeline, FCP indicated that I needed to render and when I did it seemed to look fine on the Computer monitor.

When I look at it on an NTSC monitor connected to my deck or if I make a DVD, all of the footage that originated as 29.97 is very jumpy, I assume because the equipment is applying a 23.98 to 29.97 conversion to footage that is already 29.97.

My question is, how can I convert the 29.97 to 23.98? There must be a way to do this. I assume I'd have to convert it and then re-cut the "new frame rate" clips into my timeline.

I tried several things in FCP and After Effects with no success, but since I have no experience in converting frame rates, I might not have tried the best process.

Please help!!

Thanks!

Michael


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Don Greening
Re: Need Help Converting 29.97 to 23.98 - New to using different frame rates
on Sep 4, 2006 at 8:17:15 pm

Hi Michael,

The article at the link below will probably help you:

http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/24p_in_FCP_nattress.html

But I'm pretty sure you're going to have to recapture your 29.97 footage using the regular DV NTSC codec, then convert that footage to 23.98 so you can match it up to your other footage. Graeme Nattress makes a FCP plugin for this purpose called 'Standards Conversion'. But read the article first.

http://www.nattress.com

- Don

"Please take a moment to fill out your profile, including your computer system and relevant software. Help us help you."


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David Battistella
Re: Need Help Converting 29.97 to 23.98 - New to using different frame rates
on Sep 4, 2006 at 10:57:28 pm



Woah People!!!

FCP does this.

You should capture this footage as follows:

Scenario 1. You are finishing 29.97

Capture all footage using the DV NTSC Preset, then switch to the KONA 2 DV 8 bit easy set up to edit.

Scenario 2. You are finsihing 23.98 (aka 24P) ( this mode is nessesary for a film out)

Capture all of the footage using the DV NTSC Advance puldown removal preset.


Explaination:

When shooting in advanced mode the Camera layed down flag frames to match the Pulldown patern. WHen the advanced mode is selected then FCP removes these redundant frames for you. It all gets recorded at 29.97 ALL THE TIME, only by using the DV NTSC Advnced mode do these redundant frames get removed. This allows you to edit in true 24 frame mode. When your cut is complete you can export a true 24 frame timeline so that each frame onteh video timeline would represent a film frame (24 frames per second) If you are not finishing film then there is no need to use this mode at all. Cut everyting at 29.97 and the "filmlook" of 24 fps with be retained.

David






Peace and Love :)


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Michael Kellam
Re: Need Help Converting 29.97 to 23.98 - New to using different frame rates
on Sep 5, 2006 at 1:35:02 am

David,

Thanks for your suggestions.

>>Scenario 2. You are finsihing 23.98 (aka 24P) ( this mode is nessesary for a film out)

>>Capture all of the footage using the DV NTSC Advance puldown removal preset.

This is what I was attempting, though in retrospect, it would probably have been easier to capture all as 29.97. I captured both the 23.98 and the 29.97 using the DV NTSC Advance pulldown removal preset. On the timeline, everything looks great, but on an NTSC monitor and on a test DVD I burned, the 29.97 was messed up. I checked and even though I captured the the 29.97 using the DV NTSC Advance pulldown removal preset, the system still considers it 29.97. I'm not sure if capturing it using the DV NTSC Advance pulldown actually did anything to the 29.97. I wondered if the FCP looked at the data and said "Hey, this is 29.97" and left it that way. In any case, using the Advance pulldown removal preset didn't help with the 29.97 footage.

Even though the system recognized the 29.97 footage as 29.97, since it required me to render, I hoped it made the conversion as part of the render, but this didn't work. Is there any chance it would convert it if I played it out to tape? If so, I could recapture and make the DVD from one clip.

I don't have a KONA, but I have another project where I captured all the 23.98 footage using a regular 29.97 DV/DVCPro NTSC preset in FCP and it seems to be fine. Unfortunately, the project I am having the problem with has lots of footage at 23.98 and just a few clips at 29.97. It would be no big deal if I founf a solution that required me to recapture all of the 29.97 footage, but it would be catastrophic if I had to recapture all of the 23.98 stuff.



Don,

I'll read the article you posted. I would like to try the Nattress solution, but I'm not sure I'll get a green light to buy the plugin. If they were paying me more for this project, I'd buy the plugin for my personal system and try it out. Still, I'll try to persuade them if I can't find another option.

Any other ideas?

Michael



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Michael Kellam
Re: Need Help Converting 29.97 to 23.98 - Would this work??
on Sep 5, 2006 at 1:42:51 am

Hello All,

Is it possible that I can use the following process in After Effects to fix the footage, even though the 29.97 was never film at 24P? If I "remove 3:2 pulldown", might after effects create something that fits with the 23.98?

Michael


***From After Effects Help***

Removing 3:2 or 24Pa pulldown from video transferred from film or DV cameras

It's important to remove 3:2 pulldown from video footage that was originally film so that effects you add in After Effects synchronize perfectly with the original frame rate of film. Removing 3:2 pulldown reduces the frame rate by 4/5: from 30 to 24 fps or from 29.97 to 23.976 fps, which also reduces the number of frames you have to change. To remove 3:2 pulldown, you must also indicate the phase of the 3:2 pulldown. (See About 3:2 pulldown.)

Before you remove 3:2 pulldown, separate the fields as either upper-field first or lower-field first. Once the fields are separated, After Effects can analyze the footage and determine the correct 3:2 pulldown phase and field order. If you already know the phase and field order, choose them from the Separate Fields and the Remove Pulldown pop-up menus in the Interpret Footage dialog box.

After Effects also supports Panasonic DVX100 24p DV camera pulldown, called 24P Advance (24Pa). This format is used by some cameras to capture 23.976 progressive-scan imagery using standard DV tapes.

To remove 3:2 or 24Pa pulldown from video:

1. In the Project window, select the footage from which you want to remove 3:2 pulldown.
2. Choose File > Interpret Footage > Main.
3. In the Fields and Pulldown section, select Upper Field First or Lower Field First from the Separate Fields pop-up menu.
4. Do one of the following and click OK:
* If you know the phase of the 3:2 or 24Pa pulldown, choose it from the Remove Pulldown pop-up menu.
* To have After Effects determine the correct settings, click Guess 3:2 Pulldown or Guess 24Pa Pulldown.

Note: If your footage file contains frames from different sources, the phase may not be consistent. If this is the case, import the footage once for each phase. Then, add the footage to your composition as many times as there are phases and trim each layer to use only the appropriate frames for each phase.


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David Battistella
Re: Need Help Converting 29.97 to 23.98 - Would this work??
on Sep 5, 2006 at 7:28:10 pm



Michael,

Are you editing in a 23.98 or 29.97 timeline?

David

One step at a time with the answers. This is a bit dense.

AS I understand it.

1.. You are doing a filmout.
2. Some of your footage is 29.97.
3. You want to convert that 29.97 footage to 23.98?


The best tool to do this with is on your machine. It's called compressor. It uses Shakes optical flow technology. You can build a preset in compressor to do this conversion and it looks great.

David



Peace and Love :)


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Michael Kellam
Re: Need Help Converting 29.97 to 23.98 - What I did
on Sep 13, 2006 at 6:32:22 pm

Hi guys,

Thanks for your suggestions. I'm sorry I didn't post back sooner. I had to go out of town.

Initially, a friend suggested that I create a 29.97 sequence, copy the clips from the 23.98 sequence and paste them into the 29.97 sequence. I thought this worked, but it messed up all of my variable speed clips. (I noticed that the slow motion spots contained the wrong b-roll. It was very strange.)

I tried several things based on your suggestions, but in the end, I created a 29.97 FPS sequence and re-cut the sequence. I took the old one, opened each clip in the viewer and placed them individually in the new timeline, using the in and out points from the 23.98 FPS EDL. For the things where I applied a motion effect (slow motion) I had to eyeball the original clip and re-do the slow motion.

This was definitely a learning experience! ;-) Thanks for your help!

Michael



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