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Phil Hawes
Pro Res online speed
on Jan 6, 2011 at 10:22:02 pm

I have a question concerning an online in Final Cut Pro.
The director wishes to create an online sequence of almost two hours.
The offline sequence was DV NTSC anamorphic, the online will be Pro Res 422 HQ 60i.
My concern is how the Mac Pro will handle a Pro Res sequence of that length considering that there are also many high resolution stills on the sequence. Even if I resize the stills as close to 1920 x 1080 that I can, I am concerned about playback being very slow on a sequence of that length.

It is a Mac Pro 4,1 2.66 GHz with 8 cores, 16 GB of RAM, and an internal RAID zero.

Normally at the online stage you don't worry too much about editing speed since the editing is completed but in this case significant reductions or changes in the sequence may occur (without using new media).

Am I right to be concerned about editing speed? I welcome your advice.

Phil


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Michael Sacci
Re: Pro Res online speed
on Jan 6, 2011 at 10:27:28 pm

There is no real need to use (HQ) the standard is fine for most camera sources.

You should have no problem playing this back.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Pro Res online speed
on Jan 6, 2011 at 10:30:32 pm

There is absolutely no reason to use ProRes HQ, ProRes 422 is indistinguishable from HQ on virtually anything at 1080 resolution. This has been discussed here time and time again, almost daily in fact. And, HQ may indeed create issues for you unless you have a beefier RAID. Other than that, stills are quite RAM intensive, so expect lots of rendering.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums. Formerly host of the Apple Final Cut Basics, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Gustavo Mendes
Re: Pro Res online speed
on Jan 7, 2011 at 1:18:24 am

I personally have really bad experiences with long sequences, especially with hi res stills.

I would advise you to work in reels and, after the show is done, export the reels separately and the create one longplay timeline with the final exported files.

I agree with everybody when it comes to ProRes 422 and HQ; not a lot of benefits unless you're getting HDCAM SR tapes.




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Shane Ross
Re: Pro Res online speed
on Jan 7, 2011 at 6:39:32 am

[Gustavo Mendes] "I personally have really bad experiences with long sequences, especially with hi res stills."

Then something must be wrong, because I edit 45 min to 90 min projects, DVCPRO HD to ProRes HQ, and I have no issues with those long sequences. I might edit them in separate acts, to make things speeds, but when it comes to the final edit and output, I have no issues.

[Gustavo Mendes] "I would advise you to work in reels and, after the show is done, export the reels separately and the create one longplay timeline with the final exported files."

That can cause issues with EDLs and final deliverables if you are working with broadcast shows. Avoid doing that...unnecessary. I have long 90 min sequences that I output to tape with no issues.

You just need FAST drives. A good RAID. Firewire doesn't count as fast.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Pro Res online speed
on Jan 7, 2011 at 12:02:14 pm

I'm with Shane.

What is your original HD Camera source?


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Pro Res online speed
on Jan 7, 2011 at 3:39:37 pm

Me too!

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums. Formerly host of the Apple Final Cut Basics, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Steve Modica
Re: Pro Res online speed
on Jan 7, 2011 at 5:25:35 pm

I've seen stills cause drops. I don't think it's the size of the still as much as the transcoding that FCP has to go through to play it as a video stream.
When we set up customers to edit over gigabit, an imac (without jumbo frames) will reliably drop on a still image. The size and complexity don't seem to matter. If we render that section it's fine. Mac Pros seem to ride through it just fine. It seems related to CPU utilization.

Steve Modica
CTO, Small Tree Communications


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Shane Ross
Re: Pro Res online speed
on Jan 7, 2011 at 5:28:54 pm

[Steve Modica] "I don't think it's the size of the still as much as the transcoding that FCP has to go through to play it as a video stream. "

What transcoding? When you drop a still into a timeline, and then render, FCP renders a media file that matches the sequence settings. Then you have a media file that matches all the other media files. It is, in essence, no different than those other media files. Did you RENDER before you played?

[Steve Modica] "When we set up customers to edit over gigabit, an imac (without jumbo frames) will reliably drop on a still image. "

Because without Jumbo Frames, you are not working at full capacity. But you know this...you invented the process, right? They need to render the stills.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Steve Modica
Re: Pro Res online speed
on Jan 7, 2011 at 5:45:45 pm

[Shane Ross] "What transcoding? When you drop a still into a timeline, and then render, FCP renders a media file that matches the sequence settings. Then you have a media file that matches all the other media files. It is, in essence, no different than those other media files. Did you RENDER before you played?

Actually no. When I'm testing performance, I don't usually render. I let the App transcode. We do this on purpose to measure the IO and latency and see if we're keeping up.

You're absolutely correct that rendering is something people should do, but sometimes they don't want to, or FCP shows a green line and when they render, that section is missed.

Testing a rendered timeline would be pointless for me :) I know one stream works.

Steve

Steve Modica
CTO, Small Tree Communications


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Shane Ross
Re: Pro Res online speed
on Jan 7, 2011 at 5:49:58 pm

Gotcha. You know what you are doing. And I don't like to render all the time either, but with large stills, I often have to.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Pro Res online speed
on Jan 7, 2011 at 5:59:28 pm

[Shane Ross] "I don't like to render all the time either, but with large stills, I often have to."

The good folks at Apple explained to me in an interview that RT performance of stills is directly related to the amount of available system RAM. If you drop stills one at time onto an empty timeline, you see that the first few require no rendering, the next few turn the render bar green, and then when avail;able RAM hits zero, you hit RT wall, and the render bars goes red.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums. Formerly host of the Apple Final Cut Basics, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Phil Hawes
Re: Pro Res online speed
on Jan 7, 2011 at 9:02:45 pm

Thank you for all your advice.
Sorry that I am jumping back into this thread so late.

Yes, the regular Pro Res 422 will be fine and save space!
The best video source is HDCAM (not SR) and all the film transfers are SD Uncompressed for one reason or another.

Also, I will not be making "multi-generational" copies as they say in the Pro Res white paper so there is no real need for HQ.

Believe me, if I had a more robust RAID I would use it!

Phil


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