FORUMS: list search recent posts

License Question: Selling Final Cut Studio 2 to get Studio 3

COW Forums : Apple Final Cut Pro Legacy

<< PREVIOUS   •   FAQ   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Jim Harper
License Question: Selling Final Cut Studio 2 to get Studio 3
on Nov 3, 2010 at 5:26:18 am

Hello all,

I'm a long time fan of the site, but an infrequent poster. I'm hoping someone may have an answer for the following concern.

I'm interested in selling my copy of Final Cut Studio 2 and purchasing the upgrade for Final Cut Studio 3.

Final Cut Studio 2 is an upgrade (Studio to Pro) version, that is actually upgraded from FCP Version 1.

So, what I'd like to do is the following:

- Sell Final Cut Studio 2, but retain ownership of FCP 1 (that I've had for years)
- Buy Final Cut Studio 3, and upgrade from FCP1

What gives me pause is the message in he SLA that states:

Updates: If an Apple Software update completely replaces (full install) a previously licensed version of the Apple Software, you may not use both versions of the Apple Software at the same time nor may you transfer them separately. NFR (Not for Resale) Copies: Notwithstanding other sections of this License, A

I'm not quite sure how to read that. While I definitely see an issue with someone upgrading to Final Cut Studio, and then selling the software used as the base of that upgrade, what I'm doing is actually the opposite. (Selling the upgrade software, and keeping my original FCP Version 1 license so I can use it for a newer upgrade).

Thoughs?

Thanks in advance,
Jim


Return to posts index

David Roth Weiss
Re: License Question: Selling Final Cut Studio 2 to get Studio 3
on Nov 3, 2010 at 6:00:40 am

You have two choices:

1) sell fcs2 and buy the full fcs3

2) upgrade to fcs3

You can't sell your previous version and get the upgrade price, that's double dipping.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums. Formerly host of the Apple Final Cut Basics, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


Return to posts index

Thomas Morter-Laing
Re: License Question: Selling Final Cut Studio 2 to get Studio 3
on Nov 3, 2010 at 9:48:47 am

Yeah you can- if you have FCS1, then you can sell FCS2 and upgrade from FCS1- FCS3. And upgrade is an upgrade, wether it's from 1-3 or 2-3. Itd be like you just never has FCS2.

:D
Tom Morter-Laing
Certified Apple Product Proffessional, 2010
Degree; TV Production

iMac 27" intel i7 2.93GHz, 12GB RAM, ATI HD5750 [1GB GDDR5], 2TB Int. SATA with 2TB External HDD; (FW800).



Return to posts index


Jim Harper
Re: License Question: Selling Final Cut Studio 2 to get Studio 3
on Nov 3, 2010 at 12:15:25 pm

Yes - that's what I thought. Since I still have an earlier edition of the software that I am not selling, I thought I should be able to sell the FCS2 and buy the upgrade to FCS3.

So, to clarify. I already own FCP1, which I used as the base for the FCS2 upgrade.

I want to sell the FCS2 upgrade, but not my copy of FCP1.

I want to buy the upgrade (FCS3), and upgrade from my existing copy of FCP1 (that I used for the FCS2 upgrade, but since I'm selling that, is not currently tied to an upgrade)

My confusion is in Apple's language about not selling the items separately. Is my old copy of FCP1 now forever tied to my FCS2 license, prohibiting me from selling my FCS2 without my copy of FCP1 included? It seems like it could be from the license agreement.


Return to posts index

Ben Holmes
Re: License Question: Selling Final Cut Studio 2 to get Studio 3
on Nov 3, 2010 at 12:50:38 pm

If you are clearly selling your FCS2 software as an upgrade package, I don't see an issue - you just have to make clear to any purchaser that they need a copy of FCS1 to use this update, with their own serial.

This assumes: 1) The price of the FCS3 upgrade is the same whether or not you upgrade from FCS1 or 2 and that 2) When FCS4 is announced (along with affordable space-flight for all) Apple don't decide to deprecate FCS1 owners by charging tiered pricing for updates, as other vendors (Adobe) do - although I guess owning the FCS3 update should insulate you from this.

Just be grateful you don't have to jump through online authentication like Adobe users, where updates are frequently more trouble than they're worth....

Edit Out Ltd
----------------------------
FCP Editor/Trainer/System Consultant
EVS/VT Supervisor for live broadcast
RED camera transfer/post
Independent Director/Producer

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/casestudies/detail.asp?case=therydercup


Return to posts index

Paul Jay
Re: License Question: Selling Final Cut Studio 2 to get Studio 3
on Nov 3, 2010 at 6:53:59 pm

You can even upgrade for the same upgrade price from Final Cut Pro version 2!!!


Return to posts index


Jim Harper
Re: License Question: Selling Final Cut Studio 2 to get Studio 3
on Nov 3, 2010 at 8:25:07 pm

Yes - that's why I was hoping to sell the Studio 2 upgrade. I'll actually end up making money by selling Studio 2, and upgrading to Studio 3 (from my original FCP license). The only issue is that I'm still not clear what Apple is referring to when they say "Software Update" (full install).

Interestingly, Tom Wolsky (FCP superuser on Apple Forums) thinks this is NOT ok at all.

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2635743&tstart=0

Wish I could get a straight answer. I'm wasting a lot of time trying to do the right thing!


Return to posts index

Rafael Amador
Re: License Question: Selling Final Cut Studio 2 to get Studio 3
on Nov 3, 2010 at 9:17:14 pm

[Jim Harper] "Yes - that's why I was hoping to sell the Studio 2 upgrade. I'll actually end up making money by selling Studio 2, and upgrading to Studio 3 (from my original FCP license). The only issue is that I'm still not clear what Apple is referring to when they say "Software Update" (full install)."
If you are selling your original FCS2, you have no right to use that license for any upgrade, update or whatever.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


Return to posts index

David Roth Weiss
Re: License Question: Selling Final Cut Studio 2 to get Studio 3
on Nov 3, 2010 at 9:29:50 pm

[Rafael Amador] "If you are selling your original FCS2, you have no right to use that license for any upgrade, update or whatever."

Jim,

Rafael, Tom, and myself gave you the proper and legal response, which is that you're not entitled to an upgrade if you sell your prior version. We didn't tell you that because we think Apple should simply be entitled to your money, we told what we know to be the legal model throughout the industry.

You can choose get around it and to be a pirate if you wish, but you started this thread because it seemed you wanted to know what's proper and what's not.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums. Formerly host of the Apple Final Cut Basics, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


Return to posts index


Thomas Morter-Laing
Re: License Question: Selling Final Cut Studio 2 to get Studio 3
on Nov 3, 2010 at 9:43:13 pm

I think there's a loophole here actually:
There's nothing about the being able to upgrade from FCS 1 to 3, which is perfectly legal to do, and would cost the same and require the same licensing as if you were going from FCS 2-3. It would NORMALLY break the licence if you were to upgrade from 2-3 then sell 2, but in this situation he would still have a 'base' from which to upgrade in his possession.
Otherwise that's like saying you need to have EVERY version of Final Cut if all you've ever done is upgraded.
If he was selling FCS1 AS WELL, then no, thats not allowed, but Im pretty sure, that because its still an upgrade, it makes no difference: it's a different licence key for an UPGRADE licence, NOT and "upgrade from 2-3 only" licence.

:D
Tom Morter-Laing
Certified Apple Product Proffessional, 2010
Degree; TV Production

iMac 27" intel i7 2.93GHz, 12GB RAM, ATI HD5750 [1GB GDDR5], 2TB Int. SATA with 2TB External HDD; (FW800).



Return to posts index

Jim Harper
Re: License Question: Selling Final Cut Studio 2 to get Studio 3
on Nov 3, 2010 at 10:02:33 pm

Thank you Thomas.

That is my understanding as well.

My only sticking point is the EULA portion that says

"Updates: If an Apple Software update completely replaces (full install) a previously licensed version of the Apple Software, you may not use both versions of the Apple Software at the same time nor may you transfer them separately."

I cannot find anywhere what the definition of an "update" is. It seems like an Apple Software update is different than an "upgrade". So, it would be like if Apple released a download only version of FCS 2.5 - I could not run both that and FCS 2 on dif. machines or transfer separately. But, since I have a separately licensed version of FCP1 that cannot even be installed on my current Mac (let alone technically "replaced", I should be good to go.


Return to posts index

David Roth Weiss
Re: License Question: Selling Final Cut Studio 2 to get Studio 3
on Nov 3, 2010 at 10:04:10 pm

Thomas,

Some people holdup banks and never get caught. Some get off on technicalities. Would you entrust your business to one of them?

If I were a potential client and happened upon this conversation, I know who I'd trust completely, and I know who'd want to keep my eyes on at all times.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums. Formerly host of the Apple Final Cut Basics, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


Return to posts index

Thomas Morter-Laing
Re: License Question: Selling Final Cut Studio 2 to get Studio 3
on Nov 3, 2010 at 10:29:09 pm

Yeah...because likening this to robbing a bank makes sense. Sorry I don't understand- there is a HUGE difference between talking about people who rob a bank at gun point for example, and have incredibly clever lawyers who get them off on some stupid precedent, to something which is simply NOT in the licence agreement. If Apple, who have some of the worlds best lawyers (you know, and like are the biggest company and all that) don't put in anything about it, and if the software is legitimately bought, and legitimately upgraded, from a previous version, as stated in the licence agreement, then why the hell cant version 2 be sold in this scenario?
That makes no sense to me. It's perfectly legal. It's not as if we're talking about pirating it.
Incidentally, another two facts for you- 1: the student addition is the same price as the upgrade, meaning it's the same discs, and Apple don't lose money. I spoke to Apple recently, because they initially suggest you can't upgrade from a Student licence to a normal one either, but when questioning Apple if this is actually in the legal papers for this, he wasn't able to comment (basically no).

If people have some kind of bizarre ethical problem with LEGALLY saving yourself money by NOT giving extra money to what in some ways is the biggest company in the world, then fine, but the question here was on legalities. If any future employer looked at this and had a problem with that, I'd be amazed.

:D
Tom Morter-Laing
Certified Apple Product Proffessional, 2010
Degree; TV Production

iMac 27" intel i7 2.93GHz, 12GB RAM, ATI HD5750 [1GB GDDR5], 2TB Int. SATA with 2TB External HDD; (FW800).



Return to posts index

Jim Harper
Re: License Question: Selling Final Cut Studio 2 to get Studio 3
on Nov 3, 2010 at 9:47:27 pm

Thank you David. I have no interest in pirating, or running afoul of the law or EULA.

That said, to Raphael's point, I'd be keeping my copy of FCP version 1, which I would then use as the basis of future upgrades since it is no possible to move straight from FCP1 to FCS3. I don't need FCS2, as it is no longer needed to upgrade to FCS3.

It would be as if I never bought FCS2, since that software is not needed for the upgrade.

Here's a different example:

I own FCP 1
Then I upgraded to FCP3 using the license from FCP1
Then I upgraded to FCS2, using the license from FCP1 again

The license for FCP3 is no longer in use at all. Can I sell that?

Also, I did call Apple on this, and their tech guy said it was ok, but unfortunately, he could not provide legal guidance.

So confusing. Thanks for your input/patience all.


Return to posts index

Thomas Morter-Laing
Re: License Question: Selling Final Cut Studio 2 to get Studio 3
on Nov 3, 2010 at 10:38:57 pm

"I own FCP 1
Then I upgraded to FCP3 using the license from FCP1
Then I upgraded to FCS2, using the license from FCP1 again"

Yeah again that would be fine, because you still have a "base". As far as I understand the EULA it's fine to do that- some may see it as perhaps a little 'unethical' because you're making money out of it, but at the end of the day no one LOSES money, which is what pirating is...

:D
Tom Morter-Laing
Certified Apple Product Proffessional, 2010
Degree; TV Production

iMac 27" intel i7 2.93GHz, 12GB RAM, ATI HD5750 [1GB GDDR5], 2TB Int. SATA with 2TB External HDD; (FW800).



Return to posts index

Jim Harper
Re: License Question: Selling Final Cut Studio 2 to get Studio 3
on Nov 3, 2010 at 11:50:42 pm

Thanks all for the spirited discussion. The good news is that I was in fact able to get in touch with a rep in Apple\'s professional services department. The rep, after checking with a senior rep, very clearly explained the difference between an upgrade (which I paid for) and an Apple Software update as referenced in the EULA. Bottom line is that I am within my rights to sell the upgrade only, since I paid for it and it has a separate license/serial number. In Apple\'s eyes, a software update with a full install is not the same as a paid upgrade.

Thanks again.


Return to posts index

Bryan Keith
Re: License Question: Selling Final Cut Studio 2 to get Studio 3
on Nov 4, 2010 at 5:32:39 am

With all of that figured out....I'm simply curious what somebody would actually be willing to pay for an upgrade version of FCS 2. Good luck with that.

Bryan Keith
Editor/Director/Preditor
http://www.happylandstudio.com


Return to posts index

Rafael Amador
Re: License Question: Selling Final Cut Studio 2 to get Studio 3
on Nov 4, 2010 at 8:29:26 am

Not even a newbie lawyer would fall in such a mistake as to letting open a legal frame to get two legal copies of FC, for the price of one.
Yes is easy to get lost, but there is a fact:
Whatever the version you want to use FC 1, the upgraded FC2 or the upgraded FC3, you are entitled to have and use ONLY ONE working copy of FC.
When you upgrade, you modify the original license. Once you have upgraded, the original license IS NOT VALID ANYMORE. Even if technically you can, legally you can not use for a second upgrade.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


Return to posts index

Jim Harper
Re: License Question: Selling Final Cut Studio 2 to get Studio 3
on Nov 4, 2010 at 12:26:08 pm

Thank you Rapheal.

As stated, Apple was very helpful and clear on this matter. Since FCP 1 (which I own) is a separately licensed and paid for version of the software than the FCS 2 upgrade that I am selling, I was repeatedly assured by Apple that there was no issue. They told me the only thing I needed to make clear to the buyer was that he also needed a copy of FCP to use the upgrade (which I have done). I have read the license agreement as well, and since the software update is not the same as a paid upgrade (per Apple, not per me), they state that clause was of no concern to me and I can go shed and make the transfer.

I think what you may not realize, is that FCS3 license does not build on any previous FCS1 license. It only requires a valid FCP 1 license (which I will still have) to function.


Return to posts index

Rafael Amador
Re: License Question: Selling Final Cut Studio 2 to get Studio 3
on Nov 4, 2010 at 4:26:16 pm

[Jim Harper] "I think what you may not realize, is that FCS3 license does not build on any previous FCS1 license"
OK. I wasn't aware of this.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2020 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]