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FCP - 720p @ 29.97 NIGHTMARE!!!

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Shawn Hutcheson
FCP - 720p @ 29.97 NIGHTMARE!!!
on Aug 27, 2010 at 4:15:11 pm

Here it goes...

We have two projects for the same client. Both were shot on the HVX200. One project was shot at 720p/24 (giving the frame rate 23.98) within FCP. The footage resides on a 960 x 720 frame size timeline at 23.98 with a DVCPRO HD 720p60 compressor. The footage plays nicely in FCP without any hitches. The footage was exported as a self-contained movie and this movie plays on the desktop PERFECTLY!!!

Now for the problem child... the other project was shot at 720p/30, don't ask why (giving the frame rate of 29.97) within FCP. The footage resides on a 960 x 720 frame size timeline at 29.97 with a DVCPRO HD 720p60 compressor. The footage plays nicely in FCP without any hitches. The footage was exported as a self-contained movie and this movie plays on the desktop HORRIBLY!!! IT LOOKS LIKE IT'S SKIPPING FRAMES. Three days of this nonsense and I'm reaching out to the people in the know.

I have stepped through the frames that appear to be missing... and all of the data is present. So I know the file itself is good. WHY OH WHY OH WHY is this file skipping when it plays back. Of course the client sees this and says, "why doesn't it look like the other one".

I PROMISE YOU... if you solve this problem, I'm sending you a $100 gift card for anything you want (keep it clean though).

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't waste my time with ignorant comments or guesses. This is a professional forum and I'm looking for professional answers. Thank you kindly.


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Chris Borjis
Re: FCP - 720p @ 29.97 NIGHTMARE!!!
on Aug 27, 2010 at 4:21:06 pm

file, export, quicktime conversion.

manually set all of the export settings for 1280x720
do one at 29.97 and one at 59.94

use whatever audio (probably 48khz uncompressed stereo 16bit)
and video the sequence is set for (probably dvcpro-hd)

one of them should be good.



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Shawn Hutcheson
Re: FCP - 720p @ 29.97 NIGHTMARE!!!
on Aug 30, 2010 at 9:29:02 pm

Chris,

I tried both. They still skip. I also checked the raw files and they skip as well. However, when viewing them frame by frame, all the information is there.

Shawn


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Wayne Carey
Re: FCP - 720p @ 29.97 NIGHTMARE!!!
on Aug 27, 2010 at 4:23:39 pm

Are you outputting these timeline using their default settings or are you using a preset Quicktime setting? It sounds like your 720p30 timeline is being output to 720p24. Check your output settings in the Export dialog box.

_______________________________

Wayne Carey
Schazam Productions
http://web.mac.com/schazamproductions
schazamproductions@mac.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP - 720p @ 29.97 NIGHTMARE!!!
on Aug 27, 2010 at 5:06:37 pm

I'd put everything on a 720p59.94 timeline. FCP will handle this properly. It's the easiest way to mix frame rates @ 720p in FCP.

Jeremy


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP - 720p @ 29.97 NIGHTMARE!!!
on Aug 27, 2010 at 8:36:59 pm

Please ignore my post.


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Shawn Hutcheson
Re: FCP - 720p @ 29.97 NIGHTMARE!!!
on Aug 30, 2010 at 9:31:21 pm

Jeremy,

It doesn't work. It's still skipping at random points.

Shawn


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Shawn Hutcheson
Re: FCP - 720p @ 29.97 NIGHTMARE!!!
on Aug 30, 2010 at 9:30:21 pm

Wayne,

It isn't going to 24p. I've been trying 29.97, 59.94, 30, everything I can think of. Still skipping.

Shawn


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Tom Brooks
Re: FCP - 720p @ 29.97 NIGHTMARE!!!
on Aug 27, 2010 at 6:25:47 pm

Quicktime player alone is not necessarily capable of playing that codec at full size and frame rate on the desktop. Remember that FCP adds realtime capability and any scaling hardware you have may also be helping from within Final Cut Pro. The difference could well be that your particular system (computer, drives, etc.) can't play that codec at 30fps from Quicktime, but 24fps is just within tolerance. When it's playing the p30, what does QT Player's inspector report as the actual frame rate while playing?


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Bret Williams
Re: FCP - 720p @ 29.97 NIGHTMARE!!!
on Aug 27, 2010 at 8:27:40 pm

30p vs 24p is 20% more overhead for the processor and the drives. Quite a difference. Exactly what I was thinking.


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Chris Tompkins
Re: FCP - 720p @ 29.97 NIGHTMARE!!!
on Aug 28, 2010 at 4:04:53 pm

Ya, not all Desktops will play a full HD clip right off the desktop.
Put the clip on an ext. fast array and then play it with QT if you like.
I don't see where you really even have a problem.

Chris Tompkins
Video Atlanta


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Shawn Hutcheson
Re: FCP - 720p @ 29.97 NIGHTMARE!!!
on Aug 30, 2010 at 9:36:21 pm

Chris,

I'm playing it off an external drive (promax array).

Shawn


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP - 720p @ 29.97 NIGHTMARE!!!
on Aug 30, 2010 at 10:02:49 pm

Do you have a capture card?


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Shawn Hutcheson
Re: FCP - 720p @ 29.97 NIGHTMARE!!!
on Aug 30, 2010 at 10:21:30 pm

I have the KONA LH Card.

Shawn


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP - 720p @ 29.97 NIGHTMARE!!!
on Aug 30, 2010 at 10:43:12 pm

Quicktime is not 'forced' to playback all frames. If you open the movie with AJA TV (which would mean right click on the file, then choose open with AJA TV) this will froce all of the frames to get played back correctly via the Kona card.

Jeremy


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Wayne Carey
Re: FCP - 720p @ 29.97 NIGHTMARE!!!
on Aug 30, 2010 at 11:14:28 pm

Yes, this is the proper way to play back your QT files made by FCP.

I do have one more question. Did you say, Shawn, that one of your timelines is 24p and your are wanting to convert it to 29.97 or 59.94?

_______________________________

Wayne Carey
Schazam Productions
http://web.mac.com/schazamproductions
schazamproductions@mac.com


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Shawn Hutcheson
Re: FCP - 720p @ 29.97 NIGHTMARE!!!
on Aug 31, 2010 at 4:00:16 am

No. One project a7 23.98, self-contained plays back perfectly from the computer. The other at 29.97, self-contained skips frames randomly on playback.

Shawn


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP - 720p @ 29.97 NIGHTMARE!!!
on Aug 31, 2010 at 1:13:41 pm

[Shawn Hutcheson] "The other at 29.97, self-contained skips frames randomly on playback."

Shawn-

I'm not sure how many other ways people can tell you this. Quicktime is not the most accurate of software without hardware. You will either have to lower your bitrate or playout through some form of hardware.

What is it you are trying to do exactly, meaning, why do you need it to be so accurate on the desktop?


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Shawn Hutcheson
Re: FCP - 720p @ 29.97 NIGHTMARE!!!
on Aug 31, 2010 at 4:54:23 pm

Believe me Jeremy, I get what you're saying. My problem however is that my client isn't excepting this. Meaning that the client wants the file to play on most computers without a hitch, very similar to the first file that was shot at 23.98. I think I'm going to convert the 29.97 to 23.98 and output that way. I have no other choice, but thanks for all your input.

Shawn


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Wayne Carey
Re: FCP - 720p @ 29.97 NIGHTMARE!!!
on Aug 31, 2010 at 8:17:53 pm

Shawn, you're not listening to us. Encode your timeline to Quicktime's H.264 codec at 1280x720. Most all new computers can play this file perfectly as long as Quicktime is installed. This codec is so robust that the BluRays that you see or own are mostly compressed using H.264 compression.

If your client still has problems with this, your client may be asking more than he can possibly get.

_______________________________

Wayne Carey
Schazam Productions
http://web.mac.com/schazamproductions
schazamproductions@mac.com


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Shawn Hutcheson
Re: FCP - 720p @ 29.97 NIGHTMARE!!!
on Aug 31, 2010 at 3:57:45 am

Jeremy,

... and to all those responding, I appreciate your help with this issue. Yes, I played back the file in KONA TV and it plays fine. I know the files are okay. The problem I'm having is that the client is not satisfied with the random skipping at 1280 x 720. They want it to play back smoothly and I can't figure out what to do.

Shawn


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Shawn Hutcheson
Re: FCP - 720p @ 29.97 NIGHTMARE!!!
on Aug 30, 2010 at 9:34:31 pm

Tom,

The inspector is bouncing from 28 to 30 frames per second.

Shawn


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Tom Brooks
Re: FCP - 720p @ 29.97 NIGHTMARE!!!
on Aug 31, 2010 at 12:48:36 pm

When I need smooth playback on a client's computer without special hardware and software, I never deliver in a camera-original, mastering or editing codec. For playing on the desktop, in PowerPoint, or on the Web, the file needs to be in a compressed video format that is optimized for the computer. At the most simplistic level, on Windows machines, Windows Media works best. On Macs, Quicktime with H.264 is best. The particular flavor of each depends on the computer your audience is using.

DVCProHD is a wonderful set of codecs, but it's not designed for presentation use. Certain types of Windows Media and certain types of Quicktime H.264 are meant to be presentation or delivery codecs. What I try to do is deliver the highest quality that I think will play well with the playback system of my audience. I have never delivered DVCProHD to a client, except when they intend to use it for additional editing.

The fact that your movie plays OK in Final Cut and AJA TV indicates that those hardware/software systems are assisting your computer to play at a higher quality than Quicktime Player alone can handle.

How are these movies being presented? What is their purpose and what is the playback system? I hate to blather on if I'm completely missing the point.


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Shawn Hutcheson
Re: FCP - 720p @ 29.97 NIGHTMARE!!!
on Aug 31, 2010 at 5:02:55 pm

Not at all. All your points are valid. The playback medium is almost everything: You Tube, HD DVD, Enchanced CD, Television (European) and a laptop. My thoughts were to have the original QT movie to do with what the client wants. In other words, compress to your hearts content for the medium that you want. The self-contained movie gives them that choice. Every frame is present.

Shawn


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