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5D and 7D footage in the same FCP timeline

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Philippe Gariepy
5D and 7D footage in the same FCP timeline
on Aug 23, 2010 at 3:43:15 pm

Hi everyone.

I'll be starting shortly to edit a small project in Final Cut Pro 7. Half of it was shot with the Canon Mark II 5D, the other half with the 7D. We would like to keep the 7D material in 23,98 fps.

In those occasions, I usually transcode evrything in Apple Pro Res in Compressor. Is there anything else I need to do with the 5D footage to make it 23,98 instead of the 29,97 it was shot on? Or do I just need to drop the 29,97 footage in the 23,98 timeline and it will work just fine? And if I do so, will I find myself having to rener the footage every time I do a small change in it?

Thanks a lot everyone, I searched the forum beforehand and couldn't find anything that fit my problem.


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Rafael Amador
Re: 5D and 7D footage in the same FCP timeline
on Aug 23, 2010 at 4:04:47 pm

[Philippe Gariepy] "Or do I just need to drop the 29,97 footage in the 23,98 timeline and it will work just fine? And if I do so, will I find myself having to rener the footage every time I do a small change in it?"
Then probably you will have the beach ball spinning forever, or FC crashing.
H264, as you know, is not an editing codec, and FC is not brilliant in changing time-bases.
The easier and shorter paths often end up being the longest and more complicated.
Do the things as should be done from the beginning.
Cheers,
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Philippe Gariepy
Re: 5D and 7D footage in the same FCP timeline
on Aug 23, 2010 at 4:17:24 pm

"H264, as you know, is not an editing codec"

I know that. As I said, I will transcode everything in Apple Pro Res before I start to edit. What I'm wondering is : while I compress the 5D footage, should I do something else to turn it in 23,98? Or should I leave it in 29,97?

I've never worked with CinemaTools or had to change frame rates, so my question might seem a bit ridiculous, I just want to make sure that my workflow is the best one for the project. And this project requires me to play with footage with different frame rates. I know that it's not ideal, but I have to deal with what I'm given.


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Rafael Amador
Re: 5D and 7D footage in the same FCP timeline
on Aug 23, 2010 at 4:38:45 pm

Hi Philipp,
When working with footage with different time-bases, the rule is get everything in a common time base.
You can not do it in FC (or better, you shouldn't) neither with CinemaTools.
CimeTools, "Conform", that means that your 29'98 would play at 23'97fps, but in slow motion. So that work basically when going 25><24, or when going 60/50 to 30/25.
You need to convert the time-base in Compressor or MPGStreamclip.
You are thinking to convert the 29'98 footage to 23'97, but think that the picture will look better when going 23'97 to 29'98.
Cheers,
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Michael Sacci
Re: 5D and 7D footage in the same FCP timeline
on Aug 23, 2010 at 4:50:46 pm

Retiming 29.97 to 23.98 and getting getting good quality is a really tricky thing. Most software does not do a very good job with this conversion at all. Using a program like Shake or Magic Bullet Frames do a much better job with the frame blending.


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Philippe Gariepy
Re: 5D and 7D footage in the same FCP timeline
on Aug 23, 2010 at 5:31:38 pm

So basically, my best bet would be to edit in 29,97 fps and retime the 7D footage to fit, is that right?

While we're at it, what's the technical reason why it works best this way and not the opposite? I would have thought that it would look better going from 29,97 to 23,98 because it would mean, in my mind at least, removing some frames, as opposed to creating new ones. Anyone has the time and will to clarify this?


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John Kaley
Re: 5D and 7D footage in the same FCP timeline
on Aug 23, 2010 at 8:34:51 pm

If your 29.97 footage is b-roll and the sound doesn't have to sync, you can use Compressor to do the frame rate conversion.

In the "Frame Controls" tab, select Rate Conversion: Best (High quality motion compensated)
Then check the box ""so source frames play at 23.98"

Render away (get a good book).

Since the source frame rate was 29.97 and you are conforming to 23.976, your footage will have a subtle so-mo effect to it. This may be good or bad depending on it's use.



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Philippe Gariepy
Re: 5D and 7D footage in the same FCP timeline
on Aug 23, 2010 at 9:12:19 pm

Yeah, I forgot to mention that there wasn't any synched sound involved in the edit. Both cameras are equally important as they were both filming the same event at the same time and we have to edit a small trailer for the event.

I might want to avoid the slo-mo effect. Is there any other way to avoid this?


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Bret Williams
Re: 5D and 7D footage in the same FCP timeline
on Aug 23, 2010 at 9:34:33 pm

Removing frames will result in a gap in the action. Why would that look better?

Ever since film (24fps) has been transferred to Video (30fps) pulldown has been the amazingly beautiful perfect way to go about it. Mainly because of interlacing. You're really transconding 24fps to 60fps. No frame blending is necessary. Out of every 5 frames, 2 are a field mix of the surrounding frames. So the frames sort of overlap. Frame 1, frame 2, frame 3&4 mixed, frame 4&5mixed, frame 5.

Although the above does create interlaced frames, it still is would be progressive visually. It's the way every hollywood DVD or VHS has been shown on your television for quite awhile and there haven't been many complaints.


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Philippe Gariepy
Re: 5D and 7D footage in the same FCP timeline
on Aug 23, 2010 at 10:13:01 pm

This makes sense.

So, just to clarify : I would definitely be better off editng a 29,97 fps timeline, with my 7D footage compressed to fit it in Compressor.

Excellent. Thanks everyone, this was extremely helpful. If there is anything else I need to know, let me know.


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Bret Williams
Re: 5D and 7D footage in the same FCP timeline
on Aug 24, 2010 at 4:21:00 am

Yes. I can't think of a reason you'd want to edit 24 unless you had to matchback to film. If you end up making a 24fps DVD, it's going to end up with pulldown added to bump it up to 29.97 anyway. Unless someone has a progressive scan setup. Most aren't savy enough to dig into their dvd player menus and set up their progressive scan DVD players for progressive scan even when they do have the right equipment.

I have only done a true full 24p project once, because it was all shot in 24p so I made the animation in 24p and then the DVD in true 24p. Looks the same as 24p with pulldown added to me.

All that said. You can't just drop 24p in a 29.97 sequence. FCP doesn't add pulldown. It just duplicates every 4th frame.the 24p has to go thru compressor or AE Or like software tp add the pulldown.


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Tom Brooks
Re: 5D and 7D footage in the same FCP timeline
on Aug 24, 2010 at 11:09:24 am

Dropping the clips of a different frame rate into Final Cut will not make the frame rate conversion pretty in either case--that is, by dropping 30p in a 24p sequence or the other way around. Both will result in jerky motion because FCP does a simple frame doubling or frame dropping to achieve the sequence frame rate.

Many of us think about pulldown in terms of a progressive source being telecined to play in an interlaced medium. This is not the case with your 5D or 7D footage. It should remain progressive, whether at 24p or 30p. So, when your software conversion is done, you will have some blended frames. Interlaced fields will not be part of the picture. The quality of the software conversion will determine how good those blended frames look and how smooth the motion looks.

As to which direction is better, I recall a Kenstone.net article stating that it's better to convert from a lower frame rate to a higher one. He's right in that the motion will be smoother doing it that way, but I think the choice is really about which frame rate you need to end up with. If you need 24, convert the 30. In that case, you're throwing away motion information. If you need 30, convert the 24. In this case, you don't throw away motion information, but you don't gain any either. Either way, you need to use Compressor to change the frame rate with frame controls on and rate conversion set to Better or Best.


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Philippe Gariepy
Re: 5D and 7D footage in the same FCP timeline
on Aug 24, 2010 at 3:52:06 pm

Actually, the video will be an Internet trailer, so I guess I might as well just go 29,97.

Small question while we're at it : what is the craze about wanting to shoot 24p instead of 30p or 29,97? What real difference does it make if it ends up being seen at 29,97 all the time. This might seem like a newb question, but every time I start juggling with timeframes, I end up being confused.


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Aristides Tiropolis
Re: 5D and 7D footage in the same FCP timeline
on Aug 25, 2010 at 11:45:11 am

[Philippe Gariepy] "what is the craze about wanting to shoot 24p instead of 30p or 29,97? "

24p Comes from the world of cinema so it has been associated with achieving the oh so desired "film look". This has also led to this being used as a marketing/selling button from prosumer cameras to DVD players, Plasma/LCD screens and so on. Many people don't seem to understand the technology too well and seem shocked when they see a strobe effect in a fast pan...


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Tom Brooks
Re: 5D and 7D footage in the same FCP timeline
on Aug 25, 2010 at 11:52:44 pm

The 24p look is good if you shoot correctly for it. 24p is a nice, slow to moderate frame rate. Excellent for web usage and good for DVD. So, it's really good for multiple forms of release.

DVD players today handle 24p very well with default settings. Most major movies are done on 24p DVDs that allow the deinterlacing chips in TVs or players to display progressive on flat panel displays. On a properly encoded DVD, properly connected to a progressive display, you won't see any interlacing at all. Get a typical player out of the box, hook it up with HDMI or component to an LCD and you'll most likely get progressive. No big deal.

Plus, it's a fact of life. Movies are 24p. Why fight it?


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Phil Savoie
Re: 5D and 7D footage in the same FCP timeline
on Oct 21, 2010 at 4:55:13 am

I curious how the project turned out. And as I'm about to do the same thing what about frame size - the 5D being 1920x1080 (shot @29.97) and the 7D being 1280x720 (shot @ 60). I'm about to streamclip the raw footage any workflow suggestions for going into FCP? Final delivery for spec broadcast and web.

Thanks

Phil Savoie
http://www.linkedin.com/in/philsavoie


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Danny Baron
Re: 5D and 7D footage in the same FCP timeline
on Apr 13, 2011 at 7:32:56 am

Did you do okay with this mix? i am about to do the same. Mixing 5D 1920x1080 (shot @29.97) and the 7D 1280x720 (shot @ 60). Did this cause any problems? Is there anything should keep in mind? Thanks.

Danny


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