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Matrox MX02 LE with Max...yay or nay

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Mike Diiorio
Matrox MX02 LE with Max...yay or nay
on Jun 22, 2010 at 7:35:38 pm

Ok, so i'm spending a lot of time compressing my h264 videos and need to speed this up. Also, looking to output to a program monitor. Seems that Matrox' product is the best bang for the buck, but just wanted to see if anyone had any other suggestions before I spent the $1300 + shipping.

Thanks in advance


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Matrox MX02 LE with Max...yay or nay
on Jun 22, 2010 at 8:16:19 pm

Great piece of gear... That's what I'm using these days and I have no buyer's remorse whatsoever. Shane, whose picture you also see up above this forum uses the MXO2 and he too will give you a big thumbs up.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™

EPK Colorist - UP IN THE AIR - nominated for six academy awards

A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Mike Diiorio
Re: Matrox MX02 LE with Max...yay or nay
on Jun 22, 2010 at 8:45:07 pm

Would you say the H264 rendering is 10 times faster? If so, I'm in!

Another piece I'm looking at is the MOTU V4HD...it's about $700 more. Love the bridge meter on it which is nice for monitoring what you're putting out to tape or DVD.


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Shane Ross
Re: Matrox MX02 LE with Max...yay or nay
on Jun 22, 2010 at 9:23:11 pm

I'm a big fan of the MXO2 line. I have the MXO2 and the MXO2 mini (Mini I use with Avid MC5). I have the MAX on the Mini and yeah, H.264 renders are blazing fast.

I like the MXO2 as it has two SDI outputs (on the LE too), 16 channels of embedded audio (Kona LHi only has 8...not sure about MOTU, but since it is an audio company, I'm sure they'd have lots)...connects to a laptop too. And the upconvert capabilites are comparable to the competition. Yeah, I like my MXO2.

I have zero experience with the MOTU products...so I can't compare.



Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Mike Diiorio
Re: Matrox MX02 LE with Max...yay or nay
on Jun 22, 2010 at 9:41:06 pm

thanks guys. always good to hear some feedback before spending $1300++ as well as getting emotionally invested.


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Nicholas Bierzonski
Re: Matrox MX02 LE with Max...yay or nay
on Jun 25, 2010 at 1:10:24 pm

Hi Shane!

I currently use the Aja Kona lhe on my new MAC PRO.
I still output to Beta SP (HD to SD) occasionally but I find myself delivering more and more web videos in H264 for clients.

Can Aja Kona and the MXO2 line run on the same machine? I would love to get a bump in speed when it comes to encoding to H264.

What are your thoughts?

-Nicholas Bierzonski
Senior Editor/DVD Author/Java Boy
http://www.finalfocusvideo.com




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gary adcock
Re: Matrox MX02 LE with Max...yay or nay
on Jun 25, 2010 at 1:25:26 pm

[Nicholas Bierzonski] "Can Aja Kona and the MXO2 line run on the same machine? I would love to get a bump in speed when it comes to encoding to H264"

Are you referring to the Compress HD card?

I use one for my H.264 compressions in 2 of my Kona workstations and cannot believe the speed and control the card gives me. I find that when I am compressing multiple versions of a master for clients that the Matrox Compress HD card is far and away the best hardware based solution I could find, I also do not have gamma issues with h.264 encodes when I am using the card.

It would be 500% better if I did not have to use Compressor to drive it.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Technology Development
Quality Assurance Assistance

Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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Nicholas Bierzonski
Re: Matrox MX02 LE with Max...yay or nay
on Jun 25, 2010 at 1:32:07 pm

Yes I am referring to the Compress HD card.

I already have an Aja lhe card installed in my Mac. Can I install the Compress HD card in another slot and use it to accelerate my compressor H264 encoding?

I've been looking into the MAX line and trying to make sense it.

I'd like to get one for my home edit suite but I still have much love for Aja. (Even though it doesn't accelerate my H264 encoding)


-Nicholas Bierzonski
Senior Editor/DVD Author/Java Boy
http://www.finalfocusvideo.com




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Shane Ross
Re: Matrox MX02 LE with Max...yay or nay
on Jun 25, 2010 at 2:13:29 pm

[Nicholas Bierzonski] "I already have an Aja lhe card installed in my Mac. Can I install the Compress HD card in another slot and use it to accelerate my compressor H264 encoding? "

SInce Gary just said that he uses it on two machines that have Konas installed, I'd think that is a big YES.



Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Nicholas Bierzonski
Re: Matrox MX02 LE with Max...yay or nay
on Jun 25, 2010 at 2:23:10 pm

LOL!

Thanks for the clarification, Shane!

That's what I get for trying to read the cow while working. (Too many thoughts bouncing around in my head!)

I'll definitely have to invest in this Compress HD card.

-Nicholas Bierzonski
Senior Editor/DVD Author/Java Boy
http://www.finalfocusvideo.com




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Petros Kolyvas
Re: Matrox MX02 LE with Max...yay or nay
on Jul 14, 2010 at 11:56:18 pm

Accord to Matrox it works with Telestream's Episode as well as Apple's Compressor.

There is no intuitive interface, not even the nipple. It's all learned. - Bruce Ediger


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cowcowcowcowcow
David Roth Weiss
Re: Matrox MX02 LE with Max...yay or nay
on Jun 22, 2010 at 9:57:11 pm

[Mike Diiorio] "Would you say the H264 rendering is 10 times faster? If so, I'm in! "

Matrox MAX technology, which is available across the entire Matrox MXO product line, as well as in a dedicated standalone card called CompressHD, averages about 500 to 600 percent faster .h264 encoding times than software encodes on the same system.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™

EPK Colorist - UP IN THE AIR - nominated for six academy awards

A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Mike Diiorio
Re: Matrox MX02 LE with Max...yay or nay
on Jun 22, 2010 at 10:01:31 pm

have you seen benchmarks against the MOTU product? or the AJA which come in around the same price? I don't think the AJA accelerates the H264 encodes tho so i've already written them off.


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Shane Ross
Re: Matrox MX02 LE with Max...yay or nay
on Jun 22, 2010 at 10:30:46 pm

What "benchmarks" are you referring to? They both input and output video. This isn't like hard drives where you have different speeds based on connection type. They have different FEATURES...and if you want to see that, go to the respective web sites and look.


Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Mike Diiorio
Re: Matrox MX02 LE with Max...yay or nay
on Jun 22, 2010 at 10:42:32 pm

i've seen benchmarks on render times over the years on accelerator cards for programs like studio max. it would be interesting to see how these different cards render the same video using different codecs. many of my renders are over an hour...it really slows down the finishing process.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Matrox MX02 LE with Max...yay or nay
on Jun 22, 2010 at 11:24:44 pm

[Mike Diiorio] "'ve seen benchmarks on render times over the years on accelerator cards for programs like studio max."

None of the cards or devices available for FCP are accelerator cards, they are I/O cards. Most may handle scaling of HDV and DVCPro onboard in hardware, but that is the extent of any accelerating.

As we have previously discussed in this thread, the Matrox CompressHD card and their MAX enabled I/O devices have dedicated h.264 encoding, but that's all of the hardware acceleration there is.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™

EPK Colorist - UP IN THE AIR - nominated for six academy awards

A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Mike Diiorio
Re: Matrox MX02 LE with Max...yay or nay
on Jun 22, 2010 at 10:45:59 pm

just found this thread http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/8/1081164 where you recommend the kona 3.


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Shane Ross
Re: Matrox MX02 LE with Max...yay or nay
on Jun 23, 2010 at 12:08:47 am

Yes, I recommended the Kona 3 if you are working with 2K. No mention of that was made, so I didn't make that recommendation.

WILL you be working with 2K?



Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Mike Diiorio
Re: Matrox MX02 LE with Max...yay or nay
on Jun 23, 2010 at 12:14:38 am

I shoot 1920x1080 a lot, but it's hardly red quality.


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Shane Ross
Re: Matrox MX02 LE with Max...yay or nay
on Jun 23, 2010 at 12:59:24 am

1920x1080 isn't 2K, so no worries. I still highly recommend the MXO2.

And yes, no capture cards add any boost in performance in render times. None...



Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Jason Brown
Re: Matrox MX02 LE with Max...yay or nay
on Jun 23, 2010 at 2:05:49 pm

I have an MXO2 with max and I love the rendering time of h264...it spoils you and makes you angry when you have to run a compression job on a system without max...the speed is significant.

I only use output to an FSI monitor...and the HDSDI looks great. Balanced audio sounds great as well.

-Jason


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Gary Bettan
Re: Matrox MX02 LE with Max...yay or nay
on Jun 25, 2010 at 3:21:16 pm

What great thread. MAX is the secret ingredient that gives the Matrox MXO2 family of products a leg up on other excellent I/O devices such as the Kona. As was mentioned here, if you have a Kona card, keep on using it! You can add the CompressHD card to your Mac Pro and get all of the benefits of the MAX technology.

While the MAX technology is not an accelerator, the time savings you get when you use it certainly accelerates your workflow! When the MAX technology was first announced many pros where skeptical. Sure it would be fast, but would it deliver the quality pros demand? The answer to that is "YES". As the posts on this thread already demonstrate. We've sold MAX technology into all levels of editing suites, from independent producers and event guys up to post facilities and broadcast trucks. The MXO2 Family and Matrox MAX technology have become a crucial part of so many NLE workflows.

For those interested in more information, we have an MXO2 Family FAQ on our webiste that has just been updated to include Adobe CS5 and Avid MC5 worlkflows. http://tinyurl.com/y9ngjz6

Gary

http://www.videoguys.com 800 323-2325 | We are the video editing and production experts!


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Steve Oakley
Re: Matrox MX02 LE with Max...yay or nay
on Jun 25, 2010 at 4:50:52 pm

right. the MAX card works as advertised, and the quality of its output is very good. I've been getting 4X-6X faster then RT on a 8 core box. if you are working on a laptop, obviously it would be even faster provided you can keep it fed with video fast enough :)

the drivers have been really solid as well and matrox as been really good about pushing out regular updates adding new features.



Steve Oakley
DP • Editor • VFX Artist
http://www.practicali.com


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Steve Cornell
Re: Matrox MX02 LE with Max...yay or nay
on Jul 9, 2010 at 3:53:14 pm

Hi Steve,

I followed a thread about Final Cut share errors when trying to create a BluRay. I"m having the same issue with the share function. My project is 1hr 30 minutes. I cycle between 2 different errors..

(1) Final Cut quit unexpectedly
(2) Error; not enough memory

I'm on a dual Quad Core Mac Pro 10GB Memory. You mentioned using the Matrox card. Can you describe the workflow for this ?

FCP-> Export Quicktime ? Then what ?


"you know you could of paid for a compressHD card in the first couple of shows. just export QT from FCP using the Matrox H.264 and directly export the files... done. hours and hours saved. "


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Jason Brown
Re: Matrox MX02 LE with Max...yay or nay
on Jul 9, 2010 at 4:52:24 pm

You should use the function - Send to Compressor ... if you are on v7 it works in the background and you don't have to create any intermediate files...and you can continue to edit on the same sequence you are making a transcode of.


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Steve Cornell
Re: Matrox MX02 LE with Max...yay or nay
on Jul 9, 2010 at 5:56:38 pm

In compressor, I used the BluRay setting and the quality of the burned BluRayDVD was terrible. There was plenty of artifacts and the image quality didn't match my 1080 in the timeline.


here's my attempted workflow:

FCP -> Export QT Movie (Current Settings, Audio + Video, DVD Studio Pro Markers even though I'm not going to use DVDSP)

Compressor ->drag/drop QT movie and choose create BluRay. I hit submit. I did not burn in compressor.

Toast 10 -> opened .ac3 and the .h264 to create a bluRay. The quality on the BluRay DVD was awful.


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Petros Kolyvas
Re: Matrox MX02 LE with Max...yay or nay
on Jul 15, 2010 at 12:24:03 am

Just to be clear (and I'm new here so bear with me) balanced audio allows for long cable runs, not higher quality audio by default (although it can also add increased noise/interference rejection but not defacto); and there are several types of balanced audio paths as well, some better than others.

No one likes a know-it-all, so sorry about that. I just think manufacturers love selling things with marketing rhetoric and features that result in statements like "balanced audio sounds great" when balancing has little to do with sounding great.

Also, since we're here and I'm an on-the-fence MXO2 owner, the audio features are lacking. There's no way to set the reference level, and very poor Core Audio support on the Mac. A few forum posts on the Matrox support forum show that this hasn't changed with the new 2.0 release (yet.)

Audio is actually very poorly implemented on the MXO2 in general (with or without MAX) and needs major work. Now, I haven't used competing products from AJA or BlackMagic, but was dismayed by the lack of usable audio features for inputs and outputs described by Matrox as "Professional audio..."

If I had to do it all over again I'd get a Compress HD and a BlackMagic or AJA card for video I/O.

I'm not trying to be too negative here. But I can't playback 720p24 or 1080p24 ProRes video through the MXO2's audio output without it having stutter. Video looks great, don't get me wrong. However I had to switch over to a RME audio interface (which thankfully I had) to get proper audio out. There are lots of people on the Matrox forum noting their return to the internal audio interfaces (built-in) of their Macs.

But, what might be an issue for some may not be an issue for others, so don't let this post dissuade you. If I had one piece of advice it would be to try it before you commit or find a reputable dealer with some kind of return policy who can also provide you with an alternative card in the case the one you're trying isn't right for you.

The Matrox product line has lots of strengths. Do they outweigh any weaknesses? Only an individual end user can decide for him or herself.

--
There is no intuitive interface, not even the nipple. It's all learned. - Bruce Ediger


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Shane Ross
Re: Matrox MX02 LE with Max...yay or nay
on Jul 15, 2010 at 1:16:29 am

[Petros Kolyvas] " There's no way to set the reference level,"

I'm sorry, being a video guy...but what do you mean by that? How do you do that with a VIDEO capture/output card? I don't see how to do that with AJA or Decklink either. If you find out if they do, please share. because if ALL of them are lacking this, perhaps it isn't something that us video professionals need in a video capture card. I certainly don't.

You seem to come from a very heavy audio background, and are looking at this VIDEO capture card, and others, as lacking in audio areas. THEY DO....because they are meant for video. But they all have pro audio interfaces...SDI embedded, AES/EBU...XLR. Not as many as a pro audio person would want, but again, these are video cards.

[Petros Kolyvas] "Audio is actually very poorly implemented on the MXO2 in general (with or without MAX) and needs major work. "

Please back up the statement with an explaination on how it is poorly implemented? Because for my needs, as an online editor who outputs broadcast masters with 8-16 channels of audio, this card, and the Kona 3, do what I am required to deliver.

[Petros Kolyvas] "Now, I haven't used competing products from AJA or BlackMagic, but was dismayed by the lack of usable audio features for inputs and outputs described by Matrox as "Professional audio...""

Please do research them and see if they have what you deem as professional audio. They all might lack what you are looking for.

[Petros Kolyvas] " But I can't playback 720p24 or 1080p24 ProRes video through the MXO2's audio output without it having stutter. "

Really? Audio or video stutter? I have no issues.

Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Petros Kolyvas
Re: Matrox MX02 LE with Max...yay or nay
on Jul 15, 2010 at 2:05:21 am

Here are just a few examples of what I'm talking about:
Audio capture problems (FCP, Soundtrack, etc.)
Audio monitor problems with new 1.9 driver
MXO2 MAX on MBP 2.6 Audio Hick-ups

My qualms with the MXO2 series' audio shortcomings are known quantities. These are simply the most recent threads.

These cards are in use by many small outfits who need their units to do as much as possible.

For example, some need to work in applications like Soundtrack Pro - it's currently a no-go with the MXO2 series. To do so requires "working" Core Audio drivers. Since Core Audio (buggy core audio) was only released at driver 1.9 (and apparently doesn't work any better in today's release of 2.0)... you can't use the MXO to monitor audio when working on sound in Sound Track Pro.

I don't use STP but many editors these days are forced to use it for lots of small jobs on which they're expected to do everything from edit to motion graphics to sound. If the card can't do that they should at least know beforehand since it's not clear from Matrox marketing material. Additionally, Matrox have been slow to fix Core Audio issues since Core Audio wasn't part of the MXO2's original (advertised) feature set and caught them with their proverbial pants down when users realized they needed another interface to work with all the apps of Final Cut Studio.

Again, all it means is that the card can't do everything; sure, no biggie but it should be made clear to those considering it as their only interface, that's all.

Black Magic and AJA both have working Core Audio support as far as I know.

Having said that it should be clear, reading some of the threads above from the MXO2 forum, that some folk, not all, are having such issues. I happen to be one of them. Others, for whatever reason may not. Matrox has not been able to pin down these issues definitely.

As for reference level:

I had a look at some AJA manuals and there's a dedicated audio reference level support in the IoHD, though limited. Knowing audio reference levels helps interconnect audio gear (and video gear) properly.

--
There is no intuitive interface, not even the nipple. It's all learned. - Bruce Ediger


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Petros Kolyvas
Re: Matrox MX02 LE with Max...yay or nay
on Jul 15, 2010 at 7:41:00 pm

I wrote a long post referencing many posts on the Matrox support forums indicating my audio qualms are not exclusively my own. You can read it here.

The jist of it was that a) reference levels are important. Googling audio reference levels will invariably pull up some good material essential for understanding equipment interconnection in the broadcast world.

More importantly b) If the device is to be used by the modern small-shop/solo editor (the one who is expected to do everything from edit to motion graphics to sound) they need to be aware that Core Audio support for MXO2 series is broken. That means no reliable Sound Track Pro usage, you would need a separate audio interface for that at the moment. That could make or break a deal for some people who need one device to work with Final Cut Studio in a stable and reliable fashion.

We were lucky that the machine on which the MXO2 went also had a multi-channel audio interface.

The Matrox forums are awash with new complaints that the recent 2.0 release did nothing to fix this. That's poorly implemented audio if you ask me.

And, to be clear, they're video and audio I/O interfaces. That second part should work properly. At the moment it doesn't.

These issues are real. If they don't apply to you, great! However potential customers should know about them before they jump on board. That's all I was saying.


--
There is no intuitive interface, not even the nipple. It's all learned. - Bruce Ediger


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Gino Kalkanoglu
Re: Matrox MX02 LE with Max...yay or nay
on Dec 19, 2010 at 2:41:22 am

Petros is pretty right about the issue. I recently got Matrox Mini MAX. You also need to export a movie file and dump it in compressor in order for MAX technology to work its magic. If you send your sequence to compressor directly from Final Cut, it won't work_unless If I am doing something wrong_

I wish it would work with Sorenson 6 H.264 Engine. Check out Sorenson's website to see who are using their product. I wish Sorenson would come up with something look like an El Gato usb stick device to do some serious H.264 encoding. In my opinion, big boys gotta make money with their pristine looking content before the dude with sub $1000 DSLR go out and open up his on TV station_
Well, price the Sorenson Squeeze Stick (SSS_Drive_see I have a name for you all too) around $499 and sell like 100k unit. It would be sweet. You can also put a wireless/bluetooth on the SSS to shoot it to directly Sorenson 360 website and make little more on cloud computing.
Matrox is a nice box though.

Is Sorenson hiring a project manager ?

Mac 3.2Ghz 20TB Macbook pro Pnyrn 2.5 4GB 10TB 2009 LOWA Award 1st place Broadcast Sportsman's Paradise


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Jason Brown
Re: Matrox MX02 LE with Max...yay or nay
on Dec 19, 2010 at 3:11:56 am

[Gino Kalkanoglu] "You also need to export a movie file and dump it in compressor in order for MAX technology to work its magic."

You are wrong. I do send to compressor all the time...and keep working in FCP. It works amazingly.

And, although I use compressor for all of my matrox encoding, I believe that codec is open to using in Quicktime 7 - Episode Pro - and Adobe Media Encoder (there were issues with running it through AME on mac, but I think they have been worked out)

From a speed and quality perspective...Matrox offers the best (IMHO) solution.

I used to use sorenson all the time...and I wasn't a fan of compressor at first, but it has grown on me. Most things I want to do, I can do...but it's not as simple and understandable of an interface as Squeeze 5 was for me.

-Jason


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Gino Kalkanoglu
Re: Matrox MX02 LE with Max...yay or nay
on Dec 19, 2010 at 3:26:29 am

You are right about Matrox MXO2 series being the best product in its category out there, Jason.
Yet, there is a significant quality and file size difference between compressor and Sorenson 6.
I use compressor to encode my mpeg 2 program stream files for the show we produce. Well, that takes about 3.5 hours with instancing on an '08 3.2GHZ Octo. (From AIC 1920X1080 H.264 MPEG 4.3, 4:2:0 to NTSC) For the internet, MXO2 mini MAX is blazingly fast for the content we produce for internet.
I need to check and see what I am doing wrong. Every time, I send the content directly from the FCP timeline to compressor, it takes whole a lot longer to encode. I will go over my workflow to see what I am doing wrong. Thanks for the tip Jason.

Mac 3.2Ghz 20TB Macbook pro Pnyrn 2.5 4GB 10TB 2009 LOWA Award 1st place Broadcast Sportsman's Paradise


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Gino Kalkanoglu
Re: Matrox MX02 LE with Max...yay or nay
on Feb 7, 2011 at 9:37:10 pm

How you been Jason,

I made a mistake about mpeg2 4.3.
Program stream mpeg2 with certain megabits. Let me know if you want to know. And that is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG_program_stream

4.3 I was referring to old Mpeg 4.3 which is this
http://www.cs.sfu.ca/CC/365/mark/material/notes/Chap4/Chap4.3/Chap4.3.html

As you learn the algorithms, they are a lot of fun. I love it.

The recent algorithm engines are more fun and contains broad capability. Matrox MAX is awesome for that reason. Compressor is great, too. I think Apple should have whatever next generation Ipad have the FCP compatbility to have some faders, and short cut buttons like Euphonix. I think they should team up with Euphonix to come up with some serious Ipad/Euphonix collaboration.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-4
I like this one as well.

Mac 3.2Ghz 20TB Macbook pro Pnyrn 2.5 4GB 10TB 2009 LOWA Award 1st place Broadcast Sportsman's Paradise


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