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Mixed Frame Rate resolution bugs

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Dan Powers
Mixed Frame Rate resolution bugs
on Sep 25, 2008 at 9:37:24 pm

Here is a test for you.
Create a graphic in After Effects or other application of your choice.
1280 X 720 30fps

Now create another one that is
1280 X 720 23.976
(Please note it is not 23.98, I will get to that in a minute)

Create a timeline/sequence in FCP 6 that is 1280 X 720, 30fps.
Now put both animations on the timeline.
The one with the matching framerate looks perfect, the one with the non matching frame rate looks horrible. I am NOT talking about motion artifacts. These are resolution artifacts. Frame rate issues of matching resolutions should not cause resolution artifacts. Motion artifacts are to be accepted, but not resolution.

This will happen with ANY element with mismatched frame rates but matching resolutions. In my opionion a 1280X720 30fps graphic, should look the same as 59.94 (except for motion).

Second. Final cut takes clips that are 23.98. After Effects will render at 23.98 and FCP chokes on it. You have to render out of AE at 23.976 not 23.98.

FCP needs a conform to frame rate check box in the clips properties.

You would think version 6 would be more mature.

Dan Powers


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Stephan Walfridsson
Re: Mixed Frame Rate resolution bugs
on Sep 25, 2008 at 11:02:01 pm

I did the test as per your instructions and I don't see any difference...

Both framerates look perfect on the 30fps timeline as far as I can tell. What exactly are you doing? What codec are you using? What kind of graphic?

Stephan



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Shane Ross
Re: Mixed Frame Rate resolution bugs
on Sep 25, 2008 at 11:14:40 pm

BUG? No. Mixing frame rates on the timeline is a TEMPORARY solution. A way to cut your show in an "offline" manner without having to convert everything. But before you do your final output, you'll need to convert the footage with the "off-frame rate" to match the frame rate of the project.

This is even true with the VERY mature Avid software...including the new 3.0 Media Composer. Mixing frame rates fine for offline, but for final output, you gotta transcode.


Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Dan Powers
Re: Mixed Frame Rate resolution bugs
on Sep 26, 2008 at 12:13:09 am

I put bug in the subject so it will get proper attention from apple. I have been editing on-line for 30 years and used all platforms. I love FC but this is a real problem that needs more attention. On platforms like Quantel you can mix any frame rate on the timeline and can overide the default duration and make the framerate conform to the new timeline. I agree that for motion purposes they should be transcoded, but not for resolution. Example would be to put 5994 on a 30p sequence and the clip should be able to play back at twice the duration (slowmo) without transcoding and the rez should look great. I completely get why motion artifacts exist but I don't like resolution artifacts and there are far far too many situations in FC that will hammer your image quality. Motion tab for example. I don't do offline anymore. Its online all the time. would love to keep this thread open for a while and see if we can get some help from apple for V7. frame rate and resolution issues are my main problem with FCP and I would love to get it tweaked up.

One more thought... a clip with 300 frames should be 10 seconds on a 30fps timeline and 5 seconds on a 5994 timeline. A checkbox in clip properties to choose conform to clip duration or conform to sequence frame rate. I really don't want to put a clip on a timeline and have the application throw away every other frame unless I tell it to.

For another resolution test create a graphic still in title motion that matches your sequence and save it, then modify it to a different frame rate and save with a differet name. now put both on the same timeline. they are still graphics yet the resolution is different but the only real difference is the frame rate. On a non motion graphic why do they look different? That would be FCP doing something odd to the clip in a temporal mode which is not needed and should be able to be disabled on a clip by clip basis.

sorry for tiepos. On my crappy cell phone without spell Czech.

Dan



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Shane Ross
Re: Mixed Frame Rate resolution bugs
on Sep 26, 2008 at 12:35:38 am

[Dan Powers] "On platforms like Quantel you can mix any frame rate on the timeline and can overide the default duration and make the framerate conform to the new timeline."

And the Quantel is a hardware and software solution that costs how much? $400,000? I would HOPE that it would be able to do this better than $1200 software on a $3000 computer.

[Dan Powers] "Example would be to put 5994 on a 30p sequence and the clip should be able to play back at twice the duration (slowmo) without transcoding and the rez should look great."

Well, that is something different. FCP doesn't slow the footage that way...it doesn't treat it like that. For that you have other tools. The DVCPRO HD frame rate converter...since only DVCPRO HD 720p shoots 59.94...60p...60 full frames per second. That tool is provided to do that conversion for you. Then you also have Cinema Tools to conform the footage...it will convert 59.94 into 30 or 24. The tools are there, they just aren't always incorporated into FCP...except the frame rate converter. That is in the TOOLS menu.

[Dan Powers] "One more thought... a clip with 300 frames should be 10 seconds on a 30fps timeline and 5 seconds on a 5994 timeline. A checkbox in clip properties to choose conform to clip duration or conform to sequence frame rate. I really don't want to put a clip on a timeline and have the application throw away every other frame unless I tell it to."

Use After Effects for this...it does this. FCP isn't designed to. Although true, it would be nice. But again, asking a lot of $1200 software. Add After Effects to your tool belt...still less than a Quantel box.



Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Arnie Schlissel
Re: Mixed Frame Rate resolution bugs
on Sep 26, 2008 at 12:13:57 am

[Dan Powers] "Second. Final cut takes clips that are 23.98. After Effects will render at 23.98 and FCP chokes on it. You have to render out of AE at 23.976 not 23.98."

What FCP calls 23.98 is actually 23.976. If you render out of AE at 23.98, you're not really rendering at the same frame rate that FCP uses. Nobody knows why some apps, like FCP, label this frame rate 23.98 while other apps label it 23.976. And, to be accurate, it's really more like 23.976023976...

Arnie

Post production is not an afterthought!
http://www.arniepix.com/


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Sean ONeil
Re: Mixed Frame Rate resolution bugs
on Sep 26, 2008 at 7:08:39 am

[Dan Powers] "Second. Final cut takes clips that are 23.98. After Effects will render at 23.98 and FCP chokes on it. You have to render out of AE at 23.976 not 23.98."

It's ALWAYS 23.976. Look at the math. 23.98/24 = 29.97/30.

Final Cut and all Apple products refer to it as 23.98 for purposes of simplicity even though it really means 23.976. Based on your experience, AE outputs 23.980 literally, which is never something you want.

In other words, if 23.976 is the preset option that's the one you always want to use. If 23.98 is the preset option it really is 23.976 - they're just rounding up the number for simplicity.

Sean


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Sean ONeil
Re: Mixed Frame Rate resolution bugs
on Sep 26, 2008 at 11:32:22 pm

[Sean ONeil] "It's ALWAYS 23.976. Look at the math. 23.98/24 = 29.97/30."

Whoops, I meant 23.976/24 = 29.97/30.

Sean


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Sean ONeil
Re: Mixed Frame Rate resolution bugs
on Sep 26, 2008 at 7:12:53 am

Dan,

To do the things you want, you have to understand the fundamentals of how Quicktime and all the Apple pro apps work.

For example, an important tool you are overlooking is Cinema Tools. Quicktime movies have a header which includes, among other things, timecode and playback framerate.

Final Cut cannot re-interpret the framerate of any piece of media for whatever reason. But it doesn't stop you from changing it. Open up Cinema Tools and import your clip. You can conform it to whatever speed you want. So if you want 59.94 video to be interpreted as 29.97 and thus playback at half speed, Cinema Tools is the way to do that.

Sean


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Dan Powers
Re: Mixed Frame Rate resolution bugs
on Sep 26, 2008 at 2:31:49 pm

Thanks Sean, I must admit I have ignored Cinema tools up to now. I use a Kona for output so I usually have it create the output as needed. I also use Natress to add and remove 3:2. So apparently Cinema tools just changes the header in QT so that other apps can see it the way you choose in Cinema Tools. Why cant other Apple products see this or have access to the same information? I see that if it was modified while on the timeline it could cause problems but while still in the library it seems a framerate conform would be simple. But thanks for pointing out the process as it is in QT and Apple world.

Regarding 23.976, yep I get it was just pointing that out for others who may not have found that yet.
When in the Render que there are no frame rate presets, only a box where you type in the number.

As to my other problem of resolution changes, it appears I may have an anomaly in my system. My office machine is a quad G5 with KonaLH and I can duplicate the problem with the image quality looking bad if the frame rate is different than sequence frame rate. (Again, I dont mean motion artifacts).
But I just tried the test on my MacBook Pro Intel and it does not exhibit the same artifacts when using the same settings. This is going to have to take some additional testing before I can identify why it is only happening on my G5. Will get back with you when I nail that down.

Thanks all for the input.
Dan


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