FORUMS: list search recent posts

How well does twixtor work for slow motion?

COW Forums : Cinematography

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
ryan elder
How well does twixtor work for slow motion?
on Aug 18, 2018 at 9:40:36 pm

For a shoot I did, we were on such a roll and I was trying to work quickly, that I totally forgot to remind the DP to shoot at 60 fps for the slow motion shots. They were shot at 24 fps.

I hear twixtor is good at changing 24 fps into 60. However, I saw some examples on youtube and is it looks like there is too much motion blur, probably cause the footage was shot in a 1.50th shutter speed, which is what I shot it, since I forgot to change it.

So is possible to lessen the motion blur in twixtor do you think, or is it worth purchasing for situations like this where I forget to switch to 60 fps while on a roll?


Return to posts index

ryan elder
Re: How well does twixtor work for slow motion?
on Aug 18, 2018 at 10:08:17 pm

I've taken a look at some examples but there is also a weird warping effect too if anyone knows what is about. What do you think?


Return to posts index

Todd Terry
Re: How well does twixtor work for slow motion?
on Aug 18, 2018 at 10:29:53 pm

Twixtor works only so well. I would rate it as "fair" in most circumstances.

It can look pretty good on occasion, but only if you go in knowing you're going to Twixtor footage and shoot it exactly precisely according to the requirements and recommended parameters that work best for using it.

It's not a fix-all or everyday tool for most people, and certainly isn't a substitute for real proper slow motion.

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com



Return to posts index


ryan elder
Re: How well does twixtor work for slow motion?
on Aug 18, 2018 at 11:29:22 pm

Okay thanks. What are the requirements exactly? A lot of people talk about how it's really good, and don't really get into certain requirements as much.


Return to posts index

ryan elder
Re: How well does twixtor work for slow motion?
on Aug 18, 2018 at 11:33:55 pm

I did find requirements to say shoot against a plain solid background. Well that is out since I shot in a park with lots of different trees.


Return to posts index

ryan elder
Re: How well does twixtor work for slow motion?
on Aug 18, 2018 at 11:38:44 pm

Actually it turns out that the slow motion footage was shot in 29 fps. Perhaps the DP misunderstood when I wanted him to shoot 60 fps.

Could this cause any issues in for the editing?


Return to posts index


Todd Terry
Re: How well does twixtor work for slow motion?
on Aug 18, 2018 at 11:50:04 pm

Yes, that will obviously have editing issues and considerations.

And now a bit of encompassing heartfelt and genuine advice, not necessarily for this post but to you in general...

Son, if you're gonna make a movie, you need to go out and try to make it. This constant over-analysis of every minutiae of the production process, the worrying over every piece of gear, grip, and gak, the fretting over whether this way to do something is better than that way, the constant hand-wringing.... is wildly unproductive.

Maybe it's a fear of failure.

If that's it, stop worrying about that and get over it because here is a news flash... YOU ARE GOING TO FAIL. That's a given. You are obviously a newbie with little to no knowledge about how many very rudimentary pieces of film gear and processes work. There's nothing wrong with that, ignorance is not a character flaw, everyone has to start somewhere and there was a time when we all knew nothing. BUT... someone with little to no knowledge cannot reasonably expect to go out and make Citizen Kane right out of the gate. Again... you are going to fail. So... go out and fail. Enjoy it. Celebrate the failure. That's how you learn things...by failing the first time. The first 10 times. The first 50.

We all learn by doing, and learn by watching other people who are better than us. I've said this many times before, and it is not an exaggeration: I learned more about filmmaking (especially DP work) in my first four HOURS on a real movie set that I learned in four YEARS of film school. Totally true. And even after doing this a few decades now, I still learn things every day by going out and doing.

You also need to learn to have reasonable expectations not only of yourself, but the tools you use. Many of the tools you have mentioned in this and previous posts have serious limitations, especially considering some of them (i.e. Glidecam, Twixtor) are pretty low-end consumerish tools. You can't expect them to do everything, espcially things they were not made for. In particular in another thread you seem to pretty much refuse the advice not to use long lenses with stabilizers. No matter how many times you were advised against it, you kept bringing it up.

It was a little like this fake/exaggerated conversation...

Ryan: I want this regular 100 watt light bulb to shoot real laser beams.
Us: It doesn't do that.
Ryan: But I want it to.
Us: But, that's not what it was made for, you need a laser.
Ryan: But my guy can't get a laser, and there are no laser stores here.
Us: Too bad, you still need a laser. Can you rent one?
Ryan: No, I only have a light bulb, and this is what I want it to do...

You can see how that would get a little frustrating.

I'm not trying to beat you up, I'm trying to help (if you are a real filmmaker, there's some question about that). I took time out of my Saturday to write this long response, I hope that is evidence of trying to be helpful.

NO ONE ever made a good movie, film, short, YouTube video, or whatever by writing a million posts online, self-questioning every move, and being resistant to the generous advice from older and wiser veterans. Those good movies were only made by people who actually got out of their chair and made them.

Go make a movie.

Rant over.

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com



Return to posts index

ryan elder
Re: How well does twixtor work for slow motion?
on Aug 18, 2018 at 11:59:13 pm

Okay thanks for the advice and insight, I know you are trying to help :).

It's just when I made short films in the past, I was told things like, the footage is too overexposed without an ND filter, or the camera is too still and needs more movement, or the footage is too shaky, etc.

So I am trying to correct the past problems I had on past short films, based on other people's opinions.

Now, if I am to do this Robert Rodriguez style, as someone told me to before, how do I allow the shortcomings to not be a problem for not having all the gear and luxuries?

How do viewers not have a problem with other filmmakers going very low budget, but when I do, they see it as shortcomings, that need to have more money spent on additional gear and things like that?


Return to posts index

Todd Terry
Re: How well does twixtor work for slow motion?
on Aug 19, 2018 at 12:39:16 am

There's a basic difference between you and the RR from back in the El Mariachi days, even though you both face production challenges...

Robert recognized shortcomings challenges and worked around them. You recognize them, but seem to be of the attitude "How do I make them work anyway, or have the audience not notice them?"

Too bright out and you have no ND filters? You seem ask "What is the workaround, how can I shoot it in blazing sun anyway, even though I have no ND filters (despite the fact they are easy and cheap to get)?" Robert would have said don't shoot it that way... shoot something else, shoot interiors instead, re-write it into a night scene, or just get the dang filters you need. He would not simply try to bulldoze ahead and hope it will work.

Autofocus looks bad in your stabilized shots? RR would say, then don't use autofocus... the obvious solution. You need a focus puller on that shot. RR would have made sure he had someone to pull focus. OR, he would have blocked his shot that didn't require focus pulling... OR shot at a high f-stop with a deeper depth of field. Or decided to redesign the scene and not attempt to use the stabilizer at all. What he would NOT have done is say "Is there anyway to fool the audience into thinking this bad footage is actually good," which is basically what you asked in another post.

You seem to have an overall attitude of "I know this won't work, but how can I make it work," or "This turned out badly, how can I salvage it?" We all have to do that sometimes, but it shouldn't be the standard MO (which it seems to be). There's no better way to get it right than by doing it right in the first place.

Dolly track is uneven? Don't use it. Operator can't make the stabilizer work? Chunk it. Blazing full sun but you don't have ND filters? Don't shoot then. Shoot is wrapped but focus is terrible? Reshoot it. It's not brain surgery.

Rodriguez learned what shortcomings could be worked around, worked through, and which ones should simply be avoided by doing something else. Just because you want something to happen doesn't mean it will. Just because you want a piece of gear to do something it wasn't made to do doesn't mean it will. Do what you CAN do and what your skill level and gear availability will allow... and don't do the other. As RR said and I quoted here before, "Make the movie you CAN make, not the movie you WANT to make."

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com



Return to posts index


ryan elder
Re: How well does twixtor work for slow motion?
on Aug 19, 2018 at 3:47:42 am

Okay thanks. Do you think i should not the DP use autofocus on future shoots and shoot at a super deep DOF instead? Cause a lot of people hate the deep DOF look and i was told before that it doesnt look as good. So what can i do to make it look to viewers?


Return to posts index

Andrew Somers
Re: How well does twixtor work for slow motion?
on Aug 21, 2018 at 1:26:37 pm

I like this comment Terry. To add an RR "work around" - in his first film he didn't have a blimped camera, so how to work around the camera noise? He'd record the actors right after each shot WILD.

How did he keep it in sync? He didn't. In editorial he used very short cuts so sync drift wouldn't develop in a noticeable way.

...Then he was heralded for his innovative fast editorial style...


:p

Andrew Somers
VFX & Title Supervisor
http://www.GeneralTitles.com


Return to posts index

Andrew Somers
Re: How well does twixtor work for slow motion?
on Aug 21, 2018 at 1:20:59 pm

Twixtor is really no better than the built in OpticalFlow effects available inside After Effects (namely TimeWarp), And Kronos is what AE TimeWarp is based on — and they all derive to some degree from Kodak "CineSpeed" and/or Michael Black's oflow algorithms.

These kinds of effects are fairly limited in what they are capable of. Some subjects work very well, others completely break and fail. Typically a lot of manual work has to go in such as rotomasks.

In general best results are using it at specific rates, such as 50%, where a single frame is interpolated for each "real" frame. I.e. make your footage 48 from 24. Slow object going in one direction work well with retiming, but object going opposite directions and crossing will break it (such as pedestrians walking even which way in a street scene).

I'd suggest spending some time with AE Timewarp using the "pixel motion" setting to see how it handles your subject matter.

Andrew Somers
VFX & Title Supervisor
http://www.GeneralTitles.com


Return to posts index


ryan elder
Re: How well does twixtor work for slow motion?
on Aug 21, 2018 at 4:59:14 pm

Okay thanks. When it comes to frame interpolation though, a TV with frame interpolation can add the extra frames really convincingly. I've seen TVs that make 24 fps look like 60 fps, and the TVs do not add unwanted side effects to the footage at all, unlike twixtor.

So how is that TVs can add extra frames to 24 fps and it all looks like 60 fps, but when you try to do with twixtor, it causes these side effects?


Return to posts index

ryan elder
Re: How well does twixtor work for slow motion?
on Aug 21, 2018 at 5:00:18 pm

Plus, it doesn't matter what is in the background a TV that adds extra frames. You can a movie where several people walk by in the background, and it still makes the extra frames look good. So how they do it so well compared to twixtor?


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2018 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]