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Ensure the Red Camera Proxy in Avid Workflow

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Niclas Werres
Ensure the Red Camera Proxy in Avid Workflow
on Jul 19, 2017 at 9:26:12 am

Hello everyone,

I have an easy question for all you Avid Users out ther (or so I hope).

In a month we start shooting a new project and our editor wants to cut in Avid. I have experience with Adobe Premiere in a previous project, but want to avoid all the problems that came up. So here's what I'm planning to do.

On set I'll save all the media along with our proxy files (DNxHD115), which will be created in the camera itself for time purposes. After ensuring, that the naming convention is exactly the same as the R3D files I'll copy the files in the Avid Media Files Folder, where I can sync it with the incoming audio files at the end of the day. My folder is linked via a cloud system with the editors computer, so he can start working with the files, after I sended him the Script with the synced Clips.

When the editor is finished, I take the proxies offline and link them with AMA to the original footage, so I can export the edl, aaf, or whatever is needed to the next posthouse, hopefully doing fine.

So here are my questions:
1. Do I miss something? Will I end up in some troubles with this workflow?
2. Can I create multiple folders in the Avid Media files to preserve the camera folder structure?
3. Do you suggest better ways?

4. (optional) Can I see my waveform for the audio in the source monitor like in Premiere?

I really appreciate your help. Thank you.

Best,
Niclas


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Glenn Sakatch
Re: Ensure the Red Camera Proxy in Avid Workflow
on Jul 19, 2017 at 1:45:50 pm

Your plan looks pretty good. I don't know off the top of my head if the dnx media created by the camera can simply drop into an avid folder, or if you will have to wash it. That should be a pretty easy test however.

Yes you can keep your Avid MediaFiles folder nicely organized. Put the current footage into a folder called 1.
Launch Avid, let it build its database. Once done, go back and rename "1" to what ever you want.
Create a bin in Avid called Day "###", and import the database file from your newly named Avid MediaFiles folder.

You should now have media for that day online.

You can't see audio waveforms in the viewer window if that is what you are thinking... at least i don't think you can... but you can certainly see them on the timeline, in either source or record mode. Are you thinking that is how you are going to sync the audio?
Hopefully your audio has matching timecode, and you can let Avid AutoSync the sound and picture.
Avid can do its own waveform analysis, but only on a single clip by clip basis...you can only select 1 audio and video source at at time.

Glenn


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Michael Phillips
Re: Ensure the Red Camera Proxy in Avid Workflow
on Jul 19, 2017 at 2:08:37 pm

Few points for clarity:

1. While you can sync 1 take at a time with waveforms, you will be getting a group clip, not a .sync clip. Each take is multiple steps to get to a .sync clip as I blogged here: http://24p.com/wordpress/?p=280
It will be a slow and frustrating experience.

2. You don't need to AMA link to RED masters to create an AAF for a conform elsewhere. Just export an AAF from your proxy offline and the relink/conform occurs elsewhere.

And something to consider - the RED AMA plug-in has been updated to support the MXF proxy so you may just want to link to the MXF and consolidate giving you a bit more control as to which bins you want to manage the media.

Michael


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Brent Marginet
Re: Ensure the Red Camera Proxy in Avid Workflow
on Jul 19, 2017 at 3:12:18 pm
Last Edited By Brent Marginet on Jul 19, 2017 at 3:15:09 pm

[Niclas Werres] "On set I'll save all the media along with our proxy files (DNxHD115), which will be created in the camera itself for time purposes. After ensuring, that the naming convention is exactly the same as the R3D files I'll copy the files in the Avid Media Files Folder, where I can sync it with the incoming audio files at the end of the day."

The DNxHD 115 files that the Red Camera creates will be .mov files and not the .mxf OP-Atom Files that Avid requires in the numbered folders to build the Database Files. In that case you need to with AMA Link them or Transcode them with Resolve. If you are going to Transcode then I would use the original Red Media and make sure that your "Reel Column" is populated by using the Embedded Reel Metadata.

[Niclas Werres] "4. (optional) Can I see my waveform for the audio in the source monitor like in Premiere?"

Yes, but not in the viewer window like in Premiere. They will show up in the Timeline Window when you switch between Source/Timeline Viewer mode. In the attached screen shot click on the third Icon from the left and that will switch from the Timeline View to the Source View. You can also setup a shortcut key for this if you like. These Icons are in the bottom left corner of the Timeline Window.



"MY MEDIA/PROJECT MOTO: If you think three copies of your media or project are enough.
Take a moment to place a value on them and then maybe add two more.
Hard Drives are now stupidly cheap. A RE-SHOOT AND YOUR TIME AREN'T."


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Michael Phillips
Re: Ensure the Red Camera Proxy in Avid Workflow
on Jul 19, 2017 at 4:11:26 pm

Brent: The DNxHD 115 files that the Red Camera creates will be .mov files and not the .mxf OP-Atom Files that Avid requires in the numbered folders to build the Database Files. In that case you need to with AMA Link them or Transcode them with Resolve. If you are going to Transcode then I would use the original Red Media and make sure that your "Reel Column" is populated by using the Embedded Reel Metadata.

This is not true. The RED camera records native MXF OPAtom files as DNxHD or DNxHR depending on settings. All metadata is already part of the file. No need to re-transcode or use Resolve.


Michael


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Niclas Werres
Re: Ensure the Red Camera Proxy in Avid Workflow
on Jul 19, 2017 at 4:34:22 pm

Thank you so far. I'm glad, that this should work properly. The proxy files are easy to test, since we have some here to throw in the pipeline. Just waiting to get the Avid Media License in our company and I will update you on that.

Since you need to trim down the clips anyway to the slate, I'm a fan in doing this in the timeline and then group the two to a new clip with SceneTakeName. (Functions in PremiereCC) Is it possible to do it this way in Avid? This timeline is rightaway my Daily Export for everyone else on set. Couldn't find a tutorial, which is working this way.


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Nina Lucia
Re: Ensure the Red Camera Proxy in Avid Workflow
on Nov 20, 2017 at 2:51:49 am

For syncing you don't have to use the timeline. If you use the timeline then you have to subclip before auto syncing.

If your picture and sound have the same timecode you can just put all of it in one bin then select Auto Sync, select to sync by Source Timecode and it will make all your synced clips.

If you don't have matching timecode you can mark all the slates on each clip them Auto Sync them using Inpoints.

Whichever way you do it, you still need to check each clip, especially if you do it by timecode since sometimes there's a glitch with the sync jam.


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Brent Marginet
Re: Ensure the Red Camera Proxy in Avid Workflow
on Jul 19, 2017 at 6:19:01 pm
Last Edited By Brent Marginet on Jul 19, 2017 at 6:22:40 pm

Cool, thanks for that info.
I didn't know that about the RED Camera and I guess none of the DOP's or Camera Assistants that I've worked with know that either.

One would still have to Re-Transcode if there's any LUT or Colour applied to the Clips in Resolve that must be part of the dailies though.

Good to know and I will now research this for future projects.

Thanks

"MY MEDIA/PROJECT MOTO: If you think three copies of your media or project are enough.
Take a moment to place a value on them and then maybe add two more.
Hard Drives are now stupidly cheap. A RE-SHOOT AND YOUR TIME AREN'T."


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Chris Bach
Re: Ensure the Red Camera Proxy in Avid Workflow
on Sep 24, 2017 at 12:23:50 pm

Regarding the described workflow in this post: have the quality issues of RED generated DNxHD LB Proxies been fixed (they are supposed to be on par with DNxHD 36 quality wise) or are they still basically unusable?
Sharing any experience on this would be greatly appreciated.


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Michael Phillips
Re: Ensure the Red Camera Proxy in Avid Workflow
on Sep 24, 2017 at 4:10:43 pm

I have not seen any of the more recent in-camera proxies created to know. Things may have changed since they switched to no longer creating spanned files.

Michael


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Chris Bach
Re: Ensure the Red Camera Proxy in Avid Workflow
on Sep 30, 2017 at 7:49:36 pm

Did some tests: DNxHR LB generation by the RED WEAPON CF DRAGON, firmware 7.0.0rc3, is still as bad as it ever was – so basically still unusable for editing purposes – unfortunately.


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Niclas Werres
Re: Ensure the Red Camera Proxy in Avid Workflow
on Sep 26, 2017 at 12:31:43 pm

Well, I'm working with the RED Proxies right now. We use the SQ format, but I can see pretty strong artifacts in many areas. Good enough to work with, though. So my guess is that the LB quality is not the one to go for.


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Michael Phillips
Re: Ensure the Red Camera Proxy in Avid Workflow
on Sep 26, 2017 at 2:57:41 pm

Well, that is unfortunate - the whole idea of SQ and higher as an option to shooting R3D and only use DNxHR for productions that want quick and easy turnaround. Do you get same artifacts when only shooting DNxHR SQ and not as an additional proxy? And are you getting same XY image size?


Michael


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Niclas Werres
Re: Ensure the Red Camera Proxy in Avid Workflow
on Sep 26, 2017 at 4:20:36 pm

Can't answer you the question when only shooting DNxHD, but xy size stays correctly. We're shooting spherical and anamorphic. The different types have different resolutions, but are correct in their own respective sizes.


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Eric Santiago
Re: Ensure the Red Camera Proxy in Avid Workflow
on Sep 26, 2017 at 5:28:42 pm

I do believe the newer RED systems can do DNxHR/HD.
I myself live in the legacy R3D world so I stay with that throughout the whole workflow.
I use Resolve in that chain and have never had issues mixing AMA and proxies.


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Eric Santiago
Re: Ensure the Red Camera Proxy in Avid Workflow
on Nov 19, 2017 at 8:13:06 pm

Funny this topic comes up just before I inherited a RED DRAGON shot project.
They provided me an HP Z840 to prep a feature but I am seeing a ton of issues with my Avid and RED workflow.
For starters, I can't seem to import any R3D in this Windows version.
When using Source Browser I see a list of clips (named clips) and it shows "can't be linked" under the Plug-in column.
None of the clips will import, too many different warnings to post.
When using Import it states the file is not supported.
I guess I've been using the Mac version of Avid for far too long to know whats up ☹
I also tried exporting an ALE from REDCINE and the files show up as offline.
I imported the MXF into Resolve on the same HP and the files are fine.
There is an older project in Avid and that seems fine.
What am I missing here?


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Michael Phillips
Re: Ensure the Red Camera Proxy in Avid Workflow
on Nov 19, 2017 at 8:29:59 pm

I would make sure you have the latest version of the RED AMA Plug-in installed. I have never seen any real difference for RED whether on OS X or Windows. Even the Windows version of RedCineXPro will create Apple ProRes.

What version of OS, what version of MC and what version of RED AMA plug-in?

What project type are you creating dailies for?


Michael


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Eric Santiago
Re: Ensure the Red Camera Proxy in Avid Workflow
on Nov 20, 2017 at 5:15:33 am

Thanks Michael for chiming in ☺
On the Mac side:
Avid MC 8.4.5
OS X Sierra
RED AMA 1.19 (I tried 1.16 first)

Windows:
Avid MC 8.8.4bxxxx
Windows 10
RED AMA 1.18

I have to contact the HP owner before I can start updating his software.

I just did a test from Resolve using AAF and on the Mac side and the files still show OFFLINE.

I have done the RCX export many times in the past and never had issues.
To be honest I haven't done this workflow since last year.
Usually just AMA and transcode.
But even that I cant do, the Link/Import don't work with R3D files


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Michael Phillips
Re: Ensure the Red Camera Proxy in Avid Workflow
on Nov 20, 2017 at 1:43:41 pm

The one scenario I have not tested is Windows 10, but I have not heard of similar issues from systems running Windows 10. If making dailies, I prefer Redcine X Pro over Resolve, as it makes all the file needed in one saved set up.

I assume the same steps with another codec/format work fine and it's just the R3D? Very strange.

Michael


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Eric Santiago
Re: Ensure the Red Camera Proxy in Avid Workflow
on Nov 21, 2017 at 4:16:26 am

This issue seems to be on another Mac with Avid MC 8.7.x and all updated RED plugins.
The other odd thing is that it won't open the 6K WS RED directory files as a Source file in Source Browser.
The older RED files from a Scarlet and RED ONE seems to work fine.
However, I could import by picking the R3D but force transcode and that would be brutal with a 20 day shoot (18TB data) project :P



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Eric Santiago
Re: Ensure the Red Camera Proxy in Avid Workflow
on Nov 21, 2017 at 6:18:08 am

I just found this link:
https://support.red.com/hc/en-us/articles/229370927-HELIUM-8K-S35-Sensor-FA...

Waiting on tech support for answers.
I have tried everything and nothing works so far with these files.


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Eric Santiago
Re: Ensure the Red Camera Proxy in Avid Workflow
on Nov 21, 2017 at 7:22:38 am

Update:

Installed Avid MC 8.9.3 on Mac.
Source browser works with link/import.
Avid AAF export from RCX is still broken.
I created a quick sequence with a few short Helium clips.
Transcoded then exported to AAF.
Able to import timeline and use original Helium RAW in Resolve 12.5.
Happy camper here :)


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Michael Phillips
Re: Ensure the Red Camera Proxy in Avid Workflow
on Nov 21, 2017 at 1:22:12 pm

I'm glad you got a solution working. Would it be possible to get a sample Helium R3D file from you that production allows you to send? I don't care what the image is. What version of RedCineXPro were you using that AAF's were not working? I would like to test that out on my end.

if possible, wetransfer.com, filemail.com, dropbox, etc to michael[at]24p[dot]com


Michael


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Eric Santiago
Re: Ensure the Red Camera Proxy in Avid Workflow
on Nov 23, 2017 at 5:26:23 am

Thanks, Michael I will send that asap.

At first, I was using RCX Build 50 on Windows 10.
I then tried it on a pretty old build maybe 32 on my Mac.
I upgraded to latest and still no go.
I'll send you a Dropbox link offline.


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