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3D Bend Nested Comp Problem

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Christopher Rotter
3D Bend Nested Comp Problem
on Jun 18, 2009 at 2:02:40 am

I applied Zaxwerks 3D Layer warp to a composition, and the effect plays fine in the composition. When I preview the composition as nested, I don't see the Zaxwerks 3D layer animate, why ?



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Edward Wu
Re: 3D Bend Nested Comp Problem
on Jun 19, 2009 at 12:04:47 am

Hi Christopher,

If you are using 3D Layer Warp, the animation that you applied to a pre-comp will still show up if you have that pre-comp in another Composition. If you are having problems seeing the animation in a test render you can send me the project so I can take a look at your setup and see what you may be running into.

My e-mail address is : ed@zaxwerks.com

Best,
Edward


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Christopher Rotter
Re: 3D Bend Nested Comp Problem
on Jun 19, 2009 at 1:37:36 am

The composition that has the 3D Warp applied to it works but when I preview the composition that has the nested composition which has the 3D warp within it, I don't see the effect. I had to explain it again in case I didn't explain it well so you would understand.



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Edward Wu
Re: 3D Bend Nested Comp Problem
on Jun 19, 2009 at 6:08:21 pm

Hi Chris,

I think I understand what your saying. I haven't had experience with this issue before, and I ran some more tests and couldn't find the issue that you're mentioning. If you can attach your project to me at: ed@zaxwerks.com I'll take a look at your project and see what you're running into.

Best,
Edward


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Christopher Rotter
Re: 3D Bend Nested Comp Problem
on Jun 19, 2009 at 10:12:44 pm

I got it to work, it turns out the effect wasn't scrubbing right, I had to reduce the quality. I have another question with Invigorator, I would like to know what the manual means by the statement below.

HOT TIP!
The perfect workaround for the “always in front” problem,
is to create a rectangle in Illustrator that is the size of your
AE layer. Then open this rectangle in the Invigorator, set its
Depth to 0, and apply the AE layer to the rectangle as a
Layer Map.
When you do this the AE layer is now inside of the Invigora-
tor’s 3D space so it will interact perfectly with any other In-
vigorator object. Shadows work, perspective works, camera
moves work. It’s a beautiful thing.




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Edward Wu
Re: 3D Bend Nested Comp Problem
on Jun 20, 2009 at 12:06:48 am

Hi Chris,

The tip is referring to the way 3D Invigorator works. Even though the objects you create are fully 3D, when placed into After Effects, it becomes a form of simulated 3D that is projected onto the Solid layer in After Effects. This means that even though your objects will rotate with the camera, they technically can't intersect with other objects, etc. The projected 3D models will always appear "infront" of other 3D layers.

Thus, when you want 3D Invigorator to interact to other layers, you will need to apply them as Layer Maps onto planes created in 3D Invigorator. This will allow you to have all your objects interacting with one another.

Best,
Edward


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Christopher Rotter
Re: 3D Bend Nested Comp Problem
on Jun 20, 2009 at 2:11:31 am

I'm sorry I don't quite understand.



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Edward Wu
Re: 3D Bend Nested Comp Problem
on Jun 22, 2009 at 7:06:31 pm

Hi Chris,

Let's say you create 2 Solid Layers in After Effects. The first Solid Layer contains a Sphere primitive, while the second Solid Layer contains some 3D Text. The first layer is on top of the second layer, in terms of Layer hierarchy. This means that no mater how much you use the Object Dolly tool to push the Sphere primitive back, it will always be "on top" of the 3D Text. Even though realistically, the Z value of the sphere should dictate that the sphere be "behind" the 3D text, however, the 3D objects are still confined to the After Effects' layer hierarchy system.

This applies too when you are using the 3D Invigorator objects along with the After Effects 3D layers. Even though both are 3D objects, they are not in the same 3D space. Thus, when you rotate the camera around, both are changing in perspective, but it will get to a point where you see they are operating on separate 3D space.

To make 3D Invigorator objects "interact" with 3D layers from After Effects, you will have to use the Layer Map technique. You will first have to create a Plane in 3D Invigorator, then set up a pre-comp of the After Effects layer you are working with. Next, apply the pre-comp as Layer Map 1 (3D Invigorator Effect Controls Panel > Layer Maps). Inside the 3D Invigorator Setup window, you can now apply the Layer Map as a texture map onto a material, then apply the material onto the Plane.

Now, when you rotate the camera, or do an object animation, you can have the objects interact with one another in the same 3D space.

Hope this helps.

Best,
Edward


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Christopher Rotter
Re: 3D Bend Nested Comp Problem
on Jun 23, 2009 at 12:38:47 am

Let's say you create 2 Solid Layers in After Effects. The first Solid Layer contains a Sphere primitive, while the second Solid Layer contains some 3D Text. The first layer is on top of the second layer, in terms of Layer hierarchy. This means that no mater how much you use the Object Dolly tool to push the Sphere primitive back, it will always be "on top" of the 3D Text. Even though realistically, the Z value of the sphere should dictate that the sphere be "behind" the 3D text, however, the 3D objects are still confined to the After Effects' layer hierarchy system.

Sphere, primitive as in a sphere created in Invigorator ?

This applies too when you are using the 3D Invigorator objects along with the After Effects 3D layers. Even though both are 3D objects, they are not in the same 3D space. Thus, when you rotate the camera around, both are changing in perspective, but it will get to a point where you see they are operating on separate 3D space.

I understand.

To make 3D Invigorator objects "interact" with 3D layers from After Effects, you will have to use the Layer Map technique. You will first have to create a Plane in 3D Invigorator, then set up a pre-comp of the After Effects layer you are working with. Next, apply the pre-comp as Layer Map 1 (3D Invigorator Effect Controls Panel > Layer Maps). Inside the 3D Invigorator Setup window, you can now apply the Layer Map as a texture map onto a material, then apply the material onto the Plane.

Now, when you rotate the camera, or do an object animation, you can have the objects interact with one another in the same 3D space.


I think I understand, yet I'm a little confused, if I have two layers one called "red" and another called "plane" which would have to be a pre-comp ? And which would have to be a layer map ? And why must it be a layer map for the object to interact with each other ? I understand that once it's a layer map that is the only way they both move in the same 3D space but I just don't get what I mentioned earlier.
Hope this helps.



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Edward Wu
Re: 3D Bend Nested Comp Problem
on Jun 24, 2009 at 12:37:52 am

Let's say you create 2 Solid Layers in After Effects. The first Solid Layer contains a Sphere primitive, while the second Solid Layer contains some 3D Text. The first layer is on top of the second layer, in terms of Layer hierarchy. This means that no mater how much you use the Object Dolly tool to push the Sphere primitive back, it will always be "on top" of the 3D Text. Even though realistically, the Z value of the sphere should dictate that the sphere be "behind" the 3D text, however, the 3D objects are still confined to the After Effects' layer hierarchy system.

Sphere, primitive as in a sphere created in Invigorator ?

Right, this is just an example. It can be anything created in 3D Invigorator. I just chose the Sphere Primitive and the 3D Text.

To make 3D Invigorator objects "interact" with 3D layers from After Effects, you will have to use the Layer Map technique. You will first have to create a Plane in 3D Invigorator, then set up a pre-comp of the After Effects layer you are working with. Next, apply the pre-comp as Layer Map 1 (3D Invigorator Effect Controls Panel > Layer Maps). Inside the 3D Invigorator Setup window, you can now apply the Layer Map as a texture map onto a material, then apply the material onto the Plane.

Now, when you rotate the camera, or do an object animation, you can have the objects interact with one another in the same 3D space.


I think I understand, yet I'm a little confused, if I have two layers one called "red" and another called "plane" which would have to be a pre-comp ? And which would have to be a layer map ? And why must it be a layer map for the object to interact with each other ? I understand that once it's a layer map that is the only way they both move in the same 3D space but I just don't get what I mentioned earlier.
Hope this helps.


Objects don't need to be layer maps to interact with each other. Sorry if I gave you the wrong impression. What I meant was, if you wanted a layer (plane surface) to interact with a 3D Invigorator object (say, a sphere) in the same 3D plane, you have to bring that layer "plane" into 3D Invigorator. In order to do that, you have to use a layer map to get the appearance of that layer into 3D Invigorator so you can apply that to a plane (primitive) created in 3D Invigorator. By using a layer map, you can apply the layer map onto a material, which you can then map onto the plane. This way, both objects are in the same 3D space since they are in the same 3D Invigorator setup.

So technically, you don't need to have layer maps if you just want objects to interact with one another. It's when you want a plane to have the appearance of a 3D Layer from After Effects, then you use the layer map to map the appearance. The pre-comp allows you to set up the image more, so you can have an animated layer map, for example.

In a nutshell, how it works is: If all the objects are in the same 3D Invigorator setup, then they can all "interact" with one another in the same 3D space. If they are not, then they will operate in separate 3D space.

Best,
Edward


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Christopher Rotter
Re: 3D Bend Nested Comp Problem
on Jun 24, 2009 at 1:10:44 am

Hopefully I understand now, so what the manual is stating is if you want to apply a material to the 3D object created in invigorator you would have to use layer maps in which case both objects are in 3D space ? And by "plane" you mean just a regular layer in AE with something like fractal noise applied to it ?



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Edward Wu
Re: 3D Bend Nested Comp Problem
on Jun 24, 2009 at 4:49:20 pm

Hi Chris,

No, the manual is addressing the issue I was talking about in the earlier posts about objects interacting in the same 3D space. If objects are not created in the same 3D Invigorator scene, then they are not within the same 3D space. This means that the objects cannot interact with each other, meaning that the objects cannot intersect, go through one another, etc.

The hot tip is referring to times where you may want a After Effects 3D layer to interact with the objects you create in 3D Invigorator. If you want the After Effects 3D layer to go through the objects you create in 3D Invigorator for example, you will need to take the 3D Layer, and make it into a Layer Map. Then, inside of 3D Invigorator, create a 3D Primitive, and change the 3D Primitive into a "Plane" (flat surface). Adjust the size of the Plane so that the dimensions are exactly the same as the After Effects 3D Layer. Then, apply the layer map onto a material, and apply the material onto the Plane. Now your Plane will look exactly like the After Effects 3D layer. You can now have the Plane move through the other objects you create within 3D Invigorator.

Best,
Edward


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Christopher Rotter
Re: 3D Bend Nested Comp Problem
on Jun 24, 2009 at 8:01:48 pm

No, the manual is addressing the issue I was talking about in the earlier posts about objects interacting in the same 3D space. If objects are not created in the same 3D Invigorator scene, then they are not within the same 3D space. This means that the objects cannot interact with each other, meaning that the objects cannot intersect, go through one another, etc.

What you're saying is the only way objects can interact with invigorator objects is if they are applied as a layer map then they are in the same 3D space and this is what the manual is pointing out ?

The hot tip is referring to times where you may want a After Effects 3D layer to interact with the objects you create in 3D Invigorator. If you want the After Effects 3D layer to go through the objects you create in 3D Invigorator for example, you will need to take the 3D Layer, and make it into a Layer Map. Then, inside of 3D Invigorator, create a 3D Primitive, and change the 3D Primitive into a "Plane" (flat surface). Adjust the size of the Plane so that the dimensions are exactly the same as the After Effects 3D Layer. Then, apply the layer map onto a material, and apply the material onto the Plane. Now your Plane will look exactly like the After Effects 3D layer. You can now have the Plane move through the other objects you create within 3D Invigorator.

I think I understand, but a simple example would help to nib it in the butt or a simple tutorial, I could follow to do exactly what you mentioned




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Christopher Rotter
Re: 3D Bend Nested Comp Problem
on Jun 24, 2009 at 10:25:13 pm

The hot tip is referring to times where you may want a After Effects 3D layer to interact with the objects you create in 3D Invigorator. If you want the After Effects 3D layer to go through the objects you create in 3D Invigorator for example, you will need to take the 3D Layer, and make it into a Layer Map. Then, inside of 3D Invigorator, create a 3D Primitive, and change the 3D Primitive into a "Plane" (flat surface). Adjust the size of the Plane so that the dimensions are exactly the same as the After Effects 3D Layer. Then, apply the layer map onto a material, and apply the material onto the Plane. Now your Plane will look exactly like the After Effects 3D layer. You can now have the Plane move through the other objects you create within 3D Invigorator.

After reading it again, I think I understand and by doing this you are making the After Effects 3D Layer and the Invigorator layer in both the same 3D space as well as interact with each other ?



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Christopher Rotter
Re: 3D Bend Nested Comp Problem
on Jun 26, 2009 at 2:35:58 pm

The hot tip is referring to times where you may want a After Effects 3D layer to interact with the objects you create in 3D Invigorator. If you want the After Effects 3D layer to go through the objects you create in 3D Invigorator for example, you will need to take the 3D Layer, and make it into a Layer Map. Then, inside of 3D Invigorator, create a 3D Primitive, and change the 3D Primitive into a "Plane" (flat surface). Adjust the size of the Plane so that the dimensions are exactly the same as the After Effects 3D Layer. Then, apply the layer map onto a material, and apply the material onto the Plane. Now your Plane will look exactly like the After Effects 3D layer. You can now have the Plane move through the other objects you create within 3D Invigorator.

After reading it again, I think I understand and by doing this you are making the After Effects 3D Layer and the Invigorator layer in both the same 3D space as well as interact with each other ?

I have one more question, in the manual for setting up profiles it states the following below where and how do I know where 0,0 point is in illustrator?

Setting The Scale Of A Custom Edge Profile
Edge profiles are based on a 100 point grid. Use the bottom left
corner of the vector drawing program’s page as the 0, 0 point, (origin.)



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Edward Wu
Re: 3D Bend Nested Comp Problem
on Jun 29, 2009 at 9:34:21 pm

Hi Chris,

When you create an object in Illustrator, you can see the X, Y coordinates in the top tool bar. You will be able to see a section where it lists the X and Y values, as well as the object's width and height. The coordinates are what the manual is referring to, so if you want to create an object at the (0,0) coordinate, then you will need to position it at the bottom left corner.

Best,
Edward


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Christopher Rotter
Re: 3D Bend Nested Comp Problem
on Jun 30, 2009 at 2:26:16 pm

Could you please show me a screen shot of what you mean ? I have another question which I don't understand in the manual but I will ask once I understand this.



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Edward Wu
Re: 3D Bend Nested Comp Problem
on Jun 30, 2009 at 5:49:23 pm

Hi Chris,

If you look at the right hand side of the Illustrator toolbar, you'll see the "X" and "Y" values.



Best,
Edward


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Christopher Rotter
Re: 3D Bend Nested Comp Problem
on Jul 1, 2009 at 1:04:06 pm

In other words, I have to make sure that my X & Y values are at 0 that is all the manual is stating ?





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Christopher Rotter
Re: 3D Bend Nested Comp Problem
on Jul 1, 2009 at 1:12:12 pm

Also I wanted to ask "what is a controller plane" ?



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Edward Wu
Re: 3D Bend Nested Comp Problem
on Jul 1, 2009 at 6:11:30 pm

I'm not sure where this is being referred to. However, I believe this is referring to a 3D Solid / Null Object created in After Effects which is being used to control the animation of an object created in 3D Invigorator.

To do this, first create your objects in 3D Invigorator. Then, in the Effect Controls panel, find the 3D Invigorator options, go into "Sets" and set the "Set 1 Track 3D Layer" as the 3D Solid / Null Object that you animated in 3D space. Then your 3D Invigorator object will move along the 3D Solid / Null Object.

Best,
Edward


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Edward Wu
Re: 3D Bend Nested Comp Problem
on Jul 1, 2009 at 6:03:53 pm

Right. If you go to your "Documents (My Documents in Windows) > Zaxwerks > 3D Invigorator" and look for the "Custom Edges" folder. Inside, you will see the "Edge Examples.ai" file. You can use this file as a reference to how to create different custom edges.

Best,
Edward


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Edward Wu
Re: 3D Bend Nested Comp Problem
on Jun 24, 2009 at 10:58:14 pm

Hi Chris,

Here's an example to follow:

1) Create a Color Solid in After Effects
2) Apply 3D Invigorator to the Color Solid
3) Create a 3D Primitive in 3D Invigorator, and select the "Use Comp Camera" option in the Effect Control panel
4) Import an image into After Effects
5) Drag the image onto the timeline, and convert it into a 3D Layer

Now, if you rotate the camera around, notice that the objects are not in the same 3D space. This is the issue that the Hot Tip is addressing. To have the primitive be in the same 3D space as the 3D layer, you will have to use the technique of applying a layer map onto a plane.

The picture below shows that the Sphere primitive and the 3D layer are not in the same 3D space. The sphere is always "in front" of the 3D Layer no matter what.



So, to make the 3D layer be in the same 3D space, we will have to bring the 3D layer "into" 3D Invigorator.

6) In the 3D Invigorator Effect Controls panel, assign the image layer as Layer Map 1
7) Go into the 3D Invigorator Setup window
8) Create another 3D primitive. You should now have 2 Sphere primitives. Take one Sphere, and in the Object tab, convert the Sphere into a Plane.
9) Go into the Materials tab, and assign the Layer Map 1 as a texture map for a new material
10) Apply the new material onto the Plane

The image below shows the pictures for assigning a Layer Map, and also what you should have after completing steps 6-10.



Now that you have the Sphere primitive and the Plane primitive together in 3D Invigorator, when you rotate the camera around, the objects will "interact" with one another and be in the same 3D space. The picture below shows what the Sphere and the Plane look like in the same 3D space. You can compare it with the first picture to see the difference in what they look like.



Hope this helps.

Best,
Edward




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Tom Van
Re: 3D Bend Nested Comp Problem
on Nov 18, 2009 at 11:10:15 pm

Edward,

Can this 3D interaction be attained with 3d Layer Warp alone? In other words, can my 3d Layer Warp layer interact with other 3d layers in my composition while maintaining proper 3d space?

Tom


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