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Mixing 4k with 1080p

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Jack ShepardMixing 4k with 1080p
by on Feb 22, 2016 at 4:31:41 pm

Hi - I have a mixed media 4k project with 1080p project. The ultimate output will be 1080p. I loaded the 4k footage in at 4k instead of immediately converting it to 1080p --- I wanted the option to be able to push in on footage, add zooms, etc.

My question is if I pull this 4k footage into my 1080p timeline and use motion editor or borisfx to scale the footage --- is it scaling the already downcoverted 1080p footage or the original 4k footage? I did some tests and I couldn't decide.


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Floh PetersRe: Mixing 4k with 1080p
by on Feb 23, 2016 at 10:04:27 am

You should be able to see in the Bin list view the resolution of your clips. If you have them in a natively supported codec (ProRes, Red,…) they should fast-import as native files in 4k and should be downscaled by motion editor when being placed in a HD timeline.



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Floh PetersRe: Mixing 4k with 1080p
by on Feb 23, 2016 at 10:06:44 am

Btw, if you apply Boris Red to a 4k clip in a HD timeline it will NOT have access to the original 4k material. The Motion editor will be applied first to downscale it to HD before the footage will get handed over to Red. You can access the clips via Boris Bin Browser or by directly importing them from the drive into Red, though.



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Jack ShepardRe: Mixing 4k with 1080p
by on Feb 24, 2016 at 11:26:56 pm

Thanks Floh -

Let me ask you this then just to clarify. My object is to scale the images while they are 4k as the image would deteriorate if I scaled them while in 1080p. Can I scale them in a Media 100 4K timeline or in Boris Red (from that Media 100 4k Timeline)... render it and then pull it into a 1080p HD timeline? Would that preserve my "4k quality" on the clip as it is pre-rendered before it is down-converted? Or I could pull that 4k render file back into a bin and then place it in the 1080p program? Hopefully that makes sense!


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Floh PetersRe: Mixing 4k with 1080p
by on Feb 25, 2016 at 2:07:24 pm

[Jack Shepard] "et me ask you this then just to clarify. My object is to scale the images while they are 4k as the image would deteriorate if I scaled them while in 1080p. "

This is pretty easy. Do it in Motion Editor, which is actually built to conform and rescale your clips from different resolutions. Place your 4k clips in a HD timeline, and rescale in Motion Editor as needed to get the right framing of your shots



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Michael SloweRe: Mixing 4k with 1080p
by on Mar 27, 2016 at 12:41:55 pm

I know that there has been no addition to this thread for a month or so but I do have a question.

I'm contemplating moving from my Sony EX 1 camera to anew Sony, the PXW-Z150, which has only one chip but it is 1''. The camera shoots in a multitude of codecs, including 4K. Media 100 can handle 4K and my question is, although I will be finishing in HD is there an advantage in acquiring in 4K and letting Media 100 re scale to HD in the timeline, over shooting and acquiring in HD as previously? I will not be needing to do any re framing or special FX, I just want the best picture quality I can get.

Michael Slowe


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Jack ShepardRe: Mixing 4k with 1080p
by on Apr 3, 2016 at 1:46:34 am

There are people far more technical than me, Michael. But in my opinion, I would say no if you plan on finishing in 1080p. At the end of the day, it is going to become 1080p so the extra storage and horsepower needed to edit it in 4k isn't worth it. Your picture will end up as 1080p.

People often say one of the advantages of editing in 4k is that you have the ability to zoom in on objects much further than if you are finishing in 1080p. I don't think that is true. I've found that when pushing in on 4k (and finishing in 1080p) that even though supposedly I have gained extra resolution it still turns out blurry. I've been told that this is due to lens optics.

Most Hollywood films are still finishing on 2k. Unless you are on a gigantic screen you can't actually tell the difference between 2k and 4k... there is some scientific reason behind motion blur that renders the two almost exact. Apparently, it is not until 60fps you can really tell the difference. And the 60fps version of the Hobbit was not exactly a roaring success! As viewers, we are just too accustomed to the feel of 24 or 25fps.

There is a great article about this I saw recently which I wish I could find to send you. If I find it will add it later.
So, many may disagree with me but I am not on the 4K ever higher bandwagon. Instead, I am on the bandwagon of the cameras that create the prettiest images... which to me Arri is winning.

Also, I would throw out that M100 can only handle 4k in some codecs and at some resolutions. Make sure to do a test first with some footage.


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Michael SloweRe: Mixing 4k with 1080p
by on Apr 3, 2016 at 2:48:03 pm

Thank you so much Jack for your very detailed reply and suggestions.

Actually, I had come to the same conclusion, it simply would not be worth the trouble shooting in 4K if I was wanting to end up with an HD file. In any case, I haven't yet heard about anyone editing in 4K with Media 100.

In any case the newer cameras seem to be using larger sensors which, in any event, are going to result in superior visuals without having to consider 4K.

Michael Slowe


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Michael SloweRe: Mixing 4k with 1080p
by on Apr 3, 2016 at 2:45:54 pm

Thank you so much Jack for your very detailed reply and suggestions.

Actually, I had come to the same conclusion, it simply would not be worth the trouble shooting in 4K if I was wanting to end up with an HD file. In any case, I haven't yet heard about anyone editing in 4K with Media 100.

In any case the newer cameras seem to be using larger sensors which, in any event, are going to result in superior visuals without having to consider 4K.

Michael Slowe


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Jack ShepardRe: Mixing 4k with 1080p
by on Apr 3, 2016 at 8:34:12 pm

I have edited in 4k with M100 and it does work great - depending on your codec. ProRes always works great and some of the Red Camera files work natively (although I wish they would update M100 to handle the newer files). Not sure about the Sony files. Converting everything to 4k ProRes is a time consuming task I have to say...

With my thunderbolt setup and a fairly fast hard drive I have found that I have no problem with ProRes UHD 3840x2160, a large number of audio tracks, and a fair number video tracks. With the higher 4k resolutions I start lagging without going to a faster raid setup. But, as we talked about, I haven't noticed a perceptible difference between the end products of the 4k vs 1080p when finishing in 1080p. I'll take sensor size and the cinematic color richness of the image over resolution any day! If it records in ProRes an added bonus when working in Media 100!


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Andrew MehtaRe: Mixing 4k with 1080p
by on Apr 4, 2016 at 8:18:40 pm

It's been interesting seeing all the Atomos devices, that can take any HDMI or SDI input and record it to the ProRes codec.



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Michael SloweRe: Mixing 4k with 1080p
by on Apr 4, 2016 at 8:26:30 pm

Jack, thanks. You seem to confirm that shooting in 4K and scaling to HD doesn't give a superior picture against the one obtained by shooting in HD. Interesting though that Media 100 does handle 4K well. That's comforting as there is a question put by a contributor to the Facebook club of Media 100 users concerning this. I hope that she reads your post on this forum. I always import my HD footage in the ProRes 422 HQ codec, so it makes sense to use ProRes with 4K as well.

Michael Slowe


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Marcus WarrenRe: Mixing 4k with 1080p
by on Jun 17, 2016 at 9:54:44 pm

Michael, I'm just seeing this thread so excuse me just now weighing in. I really don't have any 4K experience with Media 100 but if you are still searching for an answer try this: Edit a short sequence in a 4k timeline and output to 1080p. Then import the original 4K source footage to a 1080p timeline, edit and output to 1080p. Reimport the edited sequences to the same 1080p timeline and use the catch frame feature of Media 100 to examine identical frames of each sequence and compare them using your eyeballs and make the determination if there is any difference in editing in 4K and outputting 1080p or converting your 4K to 1080p timeline and outputting 1080p. Hopefully this is a viable technique.


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Michael SloweRe: Mixing 4k with 1080p
by on Jun 18, 2016 at 12:21:31 pm

Marcus, thanks for this but aren't you complicating things? Why not do a comparison by shooting 4K, import as 1080 ProRes, then shoot in 1080, import that and compare both clips on a timeline? My quandary was whether one gains by originating in 4K or not.

Actually, when I do get the new Sony PXW-Z150 I'll probably continue shooting in HD, it's just not worth shooting 4K at present. Whether I can get the new Sony codec, XAVC into Media 100 is another matter, might have to move from Sony Transfer to their current Catalyst Browse.

Michael Slowe


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Marcus WarrenRe: Mixing 4k with 1080p
by on Jun 18, 2016 at 12:30:51 pm

Hi Michael. My thought is to keep it in 4k all the way through the edit process so that any effects, filters, renders, excetera that you add are done in 4k and only convert to 1080p on the output. In other words, edit in the highest quality and output the 1080p only as the very last part of the process, that way any potential reduction in quality happens at the very last stage. And yes, I am probably complicating things.


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Marcus WarrenRe: Mixing 4k with 1080p
by on Jun 20, 2016 at 12:28:45 am

Michael, for your reading pleasure:
https://digitalfilms.wordpress.com/category/general-concepts-and-ideas/


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Michael SloweRe: Mixing 4k with 1080p
by on Jun 20, 2016 at 9:45:18 pm

Marcus thank you so much. That link you posted leads to a wonderful read as you promised. There is so much there but one conclusion I agree with is (as applied to editors), "you can't teach an old dog new tricks". I feel that sticking with Media 100 certainly follows this mantra. The sections about 4K are really interesting and here again, I feel that my instinct to stick with HD are justified. The explanations on 4K are illuminating, it isn't as straightforward as we are led to believe. The various permutations with regard to post production are amazing and have to be studied carefully to readily understand the options and likely results. Finally, the master class on shooting and conducting an interview is one that all documentary film makers should devour. I'm proud to say that I follow almost exactly the suggested practice, it is worth reading. I urge all colleagues to follow the link that Marcus mentions.

Michael Slowe


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Oliver GuirdhamRe: Mixing 4k with 1080p
by on Dec 7, 2016 at 4:56:55 pm

If we scale the 4K resolution pic in the 1080p converter the 4K quality image would get down scaled and the clarity,image and pixels would get scattered.FInally the image would get downscaled

Find more @ http://www.thebusinessresearchcompany.com/our-research/professional-service...


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