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RED footage on M100

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Paul Crowe
RED footage on M100
on Jul 12, 2008 at 6:16:34 am

Hi yas,

anyone here handled any footage from the RED camera(s) on their M100 suites? If so I'd like to hear your system configuration workflow and experience from shoot to post.

Cheers
P



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Floh Peters
Re: RED footage on M100
on Jul 12, 2008 at 9:10:15 am

[Paul Crowe] "Hi yas,

anyone here handled any footage from the RED camera(s) on their M100 suites? If so I'd like to hear your system configuration workflow and experience from shoot to post.
"


We´ve done a commercial with a RED One, and the workflow currently is somewhat difficult. It heavily depends on what you want to do as your master. We did do a filmout in the end, therefore we did a 2k DPX workflow, which unfortunately is not really easy to do with Media 100. Btw, for testing purposes we did a comparable workflow in FCP, and it was not much easier either.
So if you don´t need to do a filmout I would recommend doing a HD 1920*1080 workflow. After shooting, convert your footage in RedCine or RedAlert to HD1080 with a Rec 709 colorspace (e.g. into ProRes or Uncompressed, depending on your storage and needs). Make sure you are not clipping any levels, and then do a regular HD post.

If you want to do a DPX workflow, you should convert your footage to an "offline" format for editing, and then you need to recreate your edit in RedCine from your R3D files. Render the files out as DPX 2k files (2048*1554) with a 95-685 log colorspace, and e.g. do your grading in Apple Color (which can handle DPX 2k log sequences well (at least more or less)). Do your compositing in AE or Shake in 32bit float, to keep your data intact.



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Paul Crowe
Re: RED footage on M100
on Jul 12, 2008 at 11:12:12 pm

Thanks for that flow. I have a few more questions.

It heavily depends on what you want to do as your master

I'm in an awkward position in terms of the Master. We're gearing up to shoot an indie feature and we're jumping through the usual funding hoops for finance but we're going to shoot it regardless. So it might be sometime before we get support to do a film out - if ever. So, that said what's the best way to set up post for both potential outcomes and still get a quality result if it ends up being mastered back film?

We did do a film out in the end, therefore we did a 2k DPX workflow, which unfortunately is not really easy to do with Media 100

I guess this was a cinema commercial right? What were the issues with the 2k DPX wprkflow? Why isn't it easy and what was your work around?

...and e.g. do your grading in Apple Color (which can handle DPX 2k log sequences well (at least more or less)).


What do you mean by "more or less"?

Hey thanks heaps for your input with this Floh. I'm really keen to cut this myself on M100 if it's possible. But others involved are pushing pretty hard to go the Avid/FCP way.

Cheers
Paul




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Floh Peters
Re: RED footage on M100
on Jul 15, 2008 at 9:51:01 am

[Paul Crowe] "I guess this was a cinema commercial right? What were the issues with the 2k DPX wprkflow? Why isn't it easy and what was your work around? "

Yes, this was a cinema commercial. And the issues mainly are the same as with film-scanned 2k DPX files. You cannot edit them natively in a useful way, so you have to go to an intermediate format to edit and then reconform your DPX sequences to your edited master. We more or less did that manually, since currently there is no tool to automate that in a useful way, neither from FCP nor from Media 100. Theoretically you can recreate your decisions from an XML from FCP (or from Media 100 if somebody writes a translator). But this seems to be somewhat problematic, or was at the time when we did this commercial. And currently the whole workflow is "work in progress", with all the RED tools being labeled BETA and changing a lot. So it is very important to do workflow tests before starting to shoot.


[Paul Crowe] "What do you mean by "more or less"? "

The more or less has to do with the fact that everything related to Apple Color only works more or less. It is a great tool, but one that always has surprises for the operators. We work with Color and before that with FinalTouch (wich was bought by Apple and became Color) for quite a while already, but it still surprises us with some new "bugs of the week" problems. Overall it worked better than expected, though.

Generally Apple showed a RED raw workflow with FCP and Color at NAB, but it still did not deliver the updated apps to do this. So currently you are not better off with FCP than you are with Media 100, so I would recommend letting the editor chose the tool for editing this project. If somebody is more familiar with Media 100 this definitely would be an argument for me to let him work in Media 100, or if he prefers FCP I would let him use that.
Additionally RED just released Redrushes, a batch converter for RED Raw files into QuickTimes, which would work nicely with Media 100 as well as FCP.



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Paul Crowe
Re: RED footage on M100
on Jul 19, 2008 at 3:48:22 am

Thanks heaps for this info floh. Sounds like some more work needs to be done in order to get the post side of RED up to speed and user friendly. I'll definitely be testing the work floh before I commit to any path.

Don't s'pose you've handled anything off the viper cam through M100? My guess is there'll be similar kinds of issues.

Cheers
PC






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Bryon Middleton
Re: RED footage on M100
on Oct 1, 2008 at 2:46:54 pm

This post answered some of the questions I have below, but thought I'd post them anyway for any additional info you may provide. Thanks Flo.

I have the newest download of RED Alert. I was curious of what setting I should be using when rendering to get the best quality. Which Debayer Quality, Which Codec will work for me and be the highest quality?
Some don't work with M100. And to any Media 100 experts out there, are there any specific preferences I should pay attention to in my M100 projects? Video Source settings and frame rates?
Sorry if some of this stuff is elementary. I'm not the most experienced editor.

Bryon Middleton
Director of A/V Services
Media One Inc.


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Floh Peters
Re: RED footage on M100
on Oct 1, 2008 at 3:08:39 pm

[Bryon Middleton] "I have the newest download of RED Alert. I was curious of what setting I should be using when rendering to get the best quality. Which Debayer Quality, Which Codec will work for me and be the highest quality? "

The highest quality would be Uncompressed 10 bit, which usually is overkill due to its heavy performance requirements in HD. I would recommend using ProRes HQ in 1920*1080 for most projects (if you are planning to master to a HD format; for a 2k DPX workflow you would do that in a different way).

You definitely should check that you are working in Rec709 gamma, and you should do a light color/brightness adjustment there to make sure you don´t clip or waste any color and luminance info during the conversion.
If you want to batch-process your clips, you should have a look at RedRushes, which actually allows you to do convert a series of clips into the format of your choice.

Framerate depends on your shooting framerate, but most of the time probably will be 24fps (if you are planning to go to Film) or 23.976 if you are working for video delivery.



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Bryon Middleton
Re: RED footage on M100
on Apr 14, 2009 at 8:16:47 pm

Upon doing what you've suggested in Red Rushes i am getting nothing but black for video when i try the ProRes HQ setting. I've tried some of the others just to see if the footage was good and it's there, just not showing up with the Pro Res or Uncompressed 10 bit. Any ideas?

Bryon

Bryon Middleton
Director of A/V Services
Media One Inc.


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Bryon Middleton
Re: RED footage on M100
on Apr 20, 2009 at 8:59:52 pm

The highest quality would be Uncompressed 10 bit, which usually is overkill due to its heavy performance requirements in HD. I would recommend using ProRes HQ in 1920*1080 for most projects (if you are planning to master to a HD format; for a 2k DPX workflow you would do that in a different way).

You definitely should check that you are working in Rec709 gamma, and you should do a light color/brightness adjustment there to make sure you don´t clip or waste any color and luminance info during the conversion.
If you want to batch-process your clips, you should have a look at RedRushes, which actually allows you to do convert a series of clips into the format of your choice.

Framerate depends on your shooting framerate, but most of the time probably will be 24fps (if you are planning to go to Film) or 23.976 if you are working for video delivery.


FLOH:

Upon doing what you've suggested in Red Rushes i am getting nothing but black for video when i try the ProRes HQ setting. I've tried some of the others just to see if the footage was good and it's there, just not showing up with the Pro Res or Uncompressed 10 bit. Any ideas?



Bryon Middleton
Director of A/V Services
Media One Inc.


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Floh Peters
Re: RED footage on M100
on Apr 21, 2009 at 2:01:14 pm

[Bryon Middleton] "Upon doing what you've suggested in Red Rushes i am getting nothing but black for video when i try the ProRes HQ setting. I've tried some of the others just to see if the footage was good and it's there, just not showing up with the Pro Res or Uncompressed 10 bit. Any ideas?"

Not really. This works for me.



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Bryon Middleton
Re: RED footage on M100
on Nov 9, 2010 at 8:24:37 pm

I experimented with Using the Red in Media 100 about a year ago. After many trials I gave up on it.
Since then my main camera is on it's last leg and I would like to primarily start using the RED and am going to try again. I was wondering if there has been any breakthroughs or insights in the last year on workflows that seem to work better than others.

I have the latest Redcine x build and am running Media 100 12.1.1

any help is greatly appreciated.

Bryon

Bryon Middleton
Director of A/V Services
Media One Inc.


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Floh Peters
Re: RED footage on M100
on Nov 10, 2010 at 6:04:51 pm

[Bryon Middleton] "Since then my main camera is on it's last leg and I would like to primarily start using the RED and am going to try again."

Not sure if you have seen this post from Marshall. You probably can guess what the next version of Media 100 is expected to include…



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