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Media 100 in a TV Station

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jeremyR
Media 100 in a TV Station
on Dec 10, 2007 at 10:15:29 pm

Is their anyone in here using Media 100 in a TV station?
If so, how do you deliver your spots? Lay off on tape. Render it and put it on the network?
Trying to find a way to go tapeless...
Jeremy


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Michael Todd Thorpe
Re: Media 100 in a TV Station
on Dec 11, 2007 at 4:28:40 pm

We're long-time users and have three M100's... All being used daily for building spots and tagging promos. As of this writing we're still laying off to tape but we'll be installing a Harris Nexio server for on-air playback sometime this week. We tried some file exports of spots to import as a test of the system in another market but I didn't get to see the results. My understanding of the problems they ran into in the other market was finding a compatible codec that didn't make things look worse... I wasn't present for the tests, so I don't know how things looked but I'll be intimately involved once the server is installed here. The plan I'm leaning towards right now is to try a few file exports/transfers to the server and see how that goes. If I'm happy with the quality, I'm thinking of moving to tapeless. If not, we'll lay off to tape and redigitize on the server. I see a lot of bad video in our market do to servers and delivery over IP and I'd like to avoid that if possible.

Michael Todd Thorpe
Producer/Director
KUVI TV45

2 M100i's, 1 M100HDe, 1 M100HDx,


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SomeGuyFromSeattle
Re: Media 100 in a TV Station
on Dec 11, 2007 at 7:36:26 pm

I will preclude this post with the fact that I no longer spend other people's money to build facilities--having made the permanent transition (finally) from engineering (for others) to post (under my own roof). So the prerspective is different as I now spend my own $$ to equip our facility---therefore I am not as "up" on the latest and greatest gear at the upper end of the market anymore. ( I used to buy digibeta decks with the same energy/importance/concern people apply to a trip to the grocery store...now I wonder if I really need two....so the perspective has really changed...)

Original point being...my answer may be a little dated...

I have used the Media100 in several TV stations/production facilities. Production of bumpers/spots/promos, etc. Typically the air playback systems used a Tektronix Profile or similar for air playback of non-program length elements. Early on (1998) we would transfer analog component and then later (2000+) using SDI.

I have not used the Media100 in any situation where the transfers were file based for air playback, but that is typically due to the propretary nature of Hard Disk based playback systems. There are often limited codecs to choose from.

That's all I got.

TRANSFERS:
Video based...no problem.
File based...still seems to be a can of worms...


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SomeGuyFromSeattle
Re: Media 100 in a TV Station
on Dec 11, 2007 at 8:13:50 pm

Ok, the coffee just kicked in...here's a little additional drivel on this subject.

Originally the Media100 would be patched (component Analog or SDI) to the HardDisk recorder and transferred directly.

As the Hard Disk playback systems evolved, many of them began to require TC to be attached to the incoming video. That is when we switched to SDI with embedded TC or simply used Beta/Digibeta tapes for the transfer.

For the transfer -- 4:2:2 formats always seemed to work the best, especially because most of what we were producing was graphics heavy. In an attempt to cut costs, we tried DV/DVCPRo in the production line for a while. DV/DVCAM were sketchy at best, and while even DVCPro looked great on tape, ---when re-digitized into the HD playback systems at low bitrates (typically long GOP MPEG-2) we would start to see prominent artifacting in the graphics heavy work. Upping the digitize data rates usually corrected this at the expense of valuable disk space (Remember...hard drives were still exceedingly expensive even as little as a few years ago...)....so we kept all in -house production formats 4:2:2 (which is just a good idea anyways...) & transferred via tape.

4:2:2 transfers, digitize at high bitrates...you should be fine.

----

Ok everybody don't get offended when I say this...this is not an attack....but...Personally I abhor the IT based workflow for video production.
Oh, I love nonlinear editing, Photoshop,...the whole processs. (This is not an appeal to bring back the linear suite...no!)
I DO ESPECIALLY love our Panasonic P2 cameras..however.....

I have quickly grown to HATE all the DATA that we now have to archive.



----------
I constantly find myself yearning for the simplicity of putting the tape on the shelf an knowing it will be there (and still work with no issues) 3-5-7 years from now.
----
POINT BEING:
As many of have experienced...the Hard Disk playback systems DO crash from time to time.....and have to be re-loaded.
Tapes DO provide a certain amount of confidence when you re-load.
You load the tape, you hit play...you read the slate...you know immediately if it is the spot you are looking for.

IT based workflow----even with metadata (which is still in its infancy as far as I am concerned) ....unless you embed your slate into the head of the spot (file), or intimately know all of the material...or have one HECK of a bulletproof file naming system...there will be questions....(Is this the right spot,etc?) Often times we clear out our projects as soon as the elements are produced. In a tv station...if you do the same...with no tape, there might not be a backup... If the HD system crashes...what woudl you re-load it from? (Would you have to re-create elements?)

Not to get all Oliver Stone on ya', but its just meant to be some (hard learned experience) fodder for thought.

The older I get, the more I appreciate tapes.


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Mark Frazier
Re: Media 100 in a TV Station
on Dec 11, 2007 at 10:04:40 pm

I've got to agree with Seattle. I'm looking at a closet full of tape, but every one of them still plays in the Beta deck even after my computer craps out.

As far as distribution, I send out lots of spots to all different markets, and it's all still on tape. So far, we haven't found anyone who can't play a BetaSP tape.


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jeremyR
Re: Media 100 in a TV Station
on Dec 11, 2007 at 11:41:52 pm

Ya, I hear you guys. My GM asked me to look into it, but I can't find a faster way to get the spots to my Master Control Room. If my producer has 30 :30 "Bag & Tags" on his time line, they take 30 seconds each to lay off on a tape. To render them out in a QT H264 would take about 3 minutes each. I would be increasing the amount of time it takes him 6 fold. There would be no increase in quality.

I'm just wondering how stations that are tapeless make it work.

Jeremy
Production Manager
KBAK-TV KBFX-CA


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Michael Todd Thorpe
Re: Media 100 in a TV Station
on Dec 12, 2007 at 4:37:11 pm

Hey, Jeremy, we should talk. I'm over at KUVI/KABE...

Michael Todd Thorpe
Producer/Director
KUVI TV45

2 M100i's, 1 M100HDe, 1 M100HDx,


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jeremy Rowell
Re: Media 100 in a TV Station
on Dec 12, 2007 at 4:42:57 pm

Hey Michael,

Nice to see there are more Media 100's in Bako!

How do you move around spots in your facility?

Jeremy Rowell
Production Manager
KBAK-TV KBFX-CA



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Michael Todd Thorpe
Re: Media 100 in a TV Station
on Dec 12, 2007 at 4:53:06 pm

Oh, there are more of us here in town!

We lay off to tape and redigitize to the server... As I mentioned before, though, we're looking at moving to a tapeless workflow with our new server. Worst case scenario we'll stay with tape, or perhaps dub via SDI to the new server. IT is still an option, though, but I won't be able to test that out until the install is done. If I'm not happy with that we'll stay with one of the other alternatives...

Michael Todd Thorpe
Producer/Director
KUVI TV45

2 M100i's, 1 M100HDe, 1 M100HDx,


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Michael Todd Thorpe
Re: Media 100 in a TV Station
on Dec 12, 2007 at 4:55:51 pm

Hey Jeremy, give me a call sometime... I'd like to meet face to face... Ask for Todd.

Michael Todd Thorpe
Producer/Director
KUVI TV45

2 M100i's, 1 M100HDe, 1 M100HDx,


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Michael Todd Thorpe
Re: Media 100 in a TV Station
on Dec 12, 2007 at 4:57:40 pm

Forgot to mention, I'd like to talk about a scheme to move spots around town tapeless...

Todd

Michael Todd Thorpe
Producer/Director
KUVI TV45

2 M100i's, 1 M100HDe, 1 M100HDx,


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Michael Todd Thorpe
Re: Media 100 in a TV Station
on Dec 12, 2007 at 4:43:11 pm

We've done the same, send out BetaSP's... We used to be an all Beta house but we've moved to DVCPro50 and now only have two Beta decks up and running. When those die we won't be replacing them. And I just heard this morning from my chief that Panasonic is phasing out the 25 and 50 decks in favor of 100... and those won't be backward compatible to 25mb... What are we all going to use for interchange?

Michael Todd Thorpe
Producer/Director
KUVI TV45

2 M100i's, 1 M100HDe, 1 M100HDx,


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Michael Todd Thorpe
Re: Media 100 in a TV Station
on Dec 12, 2007 at 4:47:20 pm

Good points all... There is something to be said about walking up to that shelf with your tapes sitting on it. We're just starting to migrate to P2, camera on order, and I'm wondering what I'll do for archive of raw footage. On the M100 side of things, I archive the project files to DVD-R, but that can span several DVDs... raw footage is a whole other matter... If I may ask, what is your archive workflow?

Michael Todd Thorpe
Producer/Director
KUVI TV45

2 M100i's, 1 M100HDe, 1 M100HDx,


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jeremy Rowell
Re: Media 100 in a TV Station
on Dec 12, 2007 at 5:51:20 pm

I have 3 Media 100's patched to a router along with 2 DVCAM DSR-80 decks and a Beta BVW-70. We lay off our spots on BetaSP and then Redig to the server. With the new company taking over soon, I'm trying to get my ducks in a row, and be prepared to do things differently. I fear my beloved Media 100's will be making an exit... I think the new company prefers FCP. Bummer

Jeremy Rowell
Production Manager
KBAK-TV KBFX-CA



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Michael Todd Thorpe
Re: Media 100 in a TV Station
on Dec 13, 2007 at 1:16:58 am

I hear you, Jeremy. Could be worse, they could want you to edit on a PC... The good thing is your systems are up, running and paying for themselves... That's one one your side.

Todd

Michael Todd Thorpe
Producer/Director
KUVI TV45

2 M100i's, 1 M100HDe, 1 M100HDx,


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SomeGuyFromSeattle
Re: Media 100 in a TV Station
on Dec 12, 2007 at 11:03:34 pm

RE: Archiving P2 footage.

FIRST:
Over here, the IT route (We tried DL-DVD, Blu-ray and DLT) became burdensome for archiving raw P2 footage, so we use what I call the "FCP method" of archiving.

--
NOW:
We simply open all the P2 images for a project into a fresh FCP session, drag the footage into a timeline and offlay it via Firewire to our DVCPRoHD deck. (no recompression cycle...stays codec native.)

P2 to tape--no loss. (Just original timecode lost.)

-----
You can do the exact same thing from within Media100....outputting all footage from a timeline via HD-SDI, but there IS a generation loss/recompression cycle when you do it that way. In our opinion, the "loss" is exceedingly minimal.
-----

DOWNSIDE: Still not faster than realtime transfer.
The other downside is the loss of original timecode...if that is critical to your work.
(You are re-striping when you transfer to tape..) Unless someone knows how to output P2 video from a FCP timeline with original source clip timecode intact to tape...(anybody?)

UPSIDE: DVCPRO Tapes are cheaper than the IT-based high-capacity DLT's we were previously attempting to use for archive.
-And video-tapes make it a heck of a lot easier to access single shots later (quickly) if needed.
-AND we can pick up the tapes at a moments notice and ship them to clients if needed, etc.
-And...our DVCProHD deck was paid for a long time ago and will last us an estimated 7-10 years (obviously we ar enot a dubbing house!).
Due to the nature of the Data Archiving industry...Our Data tapes/drives always seem to be outdated within a year or two. (DLT seems to double its capacity every two years...necessitating upgrade envy and the constant potential for non-backwards compatibility. Don't believe me...just try reading a VS80 DLT in a newer 200/300/600 drive....its sketchy at best...)
For these reasons and others....we have deemed our (well-maintained) video decks to be a better long-term investment than data archiving gear.





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Chris Clephane
Re: Media 100 in a TV Station
on Dec 12, 2007 at 11:26:47 pm

Ok...one last workflow admission/clarification.

We DO archive our completed, TRIMMED & SLIMMED projects to DLT. But only the necessary footage/FX/GFX, etc to make that program play when restored.
If we make changes later..it usually just requires an additional clip or two...so we will then pull/redig. from tape. Make the correction/addition and re-archive the project to DLT.

RAW footage stays on DVCProHD.

Anyways, that's our current workflow. If that helps anyone...great...if not...well thanks for listening anyways.

-C

I edit video. I post sometimes.
I fix things. I eat marshmallows.
I play drums. I drink scotch.
I like TV.

Done typing now.

-Me


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Michael Todd Thorpe
Re: Media 100 in a TV Station
on Dec 13, 2007 at 1:14:00 am

Thanks for the info...

Yes, I've been down the DLT road and been burned. Now I archive to DVD-r. I clean all unnecessary video out of the project including graphics renders (those can always be re-rendered)... BUT - that does not deal with the implications of P2, I'm still on DVCPro50 for the time being...

Todd


Michael Todd Thorpe
Producer/Director
KUVI TV45

2 M100i's, 1 M100HDe, 1 M100HDx,


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