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Mastering M100i programs to set-top DVD recorder

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KitMastering M100i programs to set-top DVD recorder
by on Sep 23, 2006 at 7:08:31 am

I'm trying to "Master To Tape" directly from my M100 i/xs v.8.23 to an LG LRA-750 DVD recorder, using the firewire connection. No luck: although the deck has a 4-pin firewire input, it apparently only accepts a DV signal from a camcorder. Yet when I "Master To Tape" to my DSR-11 DV deck via firewire, the process works fine. Is the DV signal from M100 different from a camcorder's? And will all set-top DVD recorders have the same restriction, i.e. only accept DV from a camcorder and not from my M100? If so, is using an S-video signal instead my best option?

I'm hoping to find a way to record to DVD real time and avoid the very long rendering times needed to encode through Compressor or similar programs.

Thanks,

Kit



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FlohRe: Mastering M100i programs to set-top DVD recorder
by on Sep 23, 2006 at 8:17:42 am

This seems to be a common problem; DVD recorders with FireWire inputs seem to act differently than cameras/decks, so Media 100 cannot establish a connection to them. Don


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Michael SloweRe: Mastering M100i programs to set-top DVD recorder
by on Sep 23, 2006 at 1:17:57 pm

Disagree with Floh here (heresy!!), quality into set top DVD recorders not brilliant anyway and through composite poor I would have thought. Why not bother to do proper encoding and formatting, it's only time after all and the disc is much more likely to play on many more players.


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topher944Re: Mastering M100i programs to set-top DVD recorder
by on Sep 23, 2006 at 3:06:08 pm

Don't forget to read the fine print on your DVD recorder. If it's anything like mine, you'll have to go through the process of "finishing" a DVD in order for it to play on anything else. If you don't "finish" the disk, it will only play on your recorder. Best of Luck, Chris


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KitRe: Mastering M100i programs to set-top DVD recorder
by on Sep 23, 2006 at 5:10:23 pm

Thanks for the input, everyone. I'm going to investigate the difference between the firewire signal coming from M100 and the DV signal from a camcorder to see if there is some way around this incompatibility. Meanwhile, I'd be interested to know if anyone has a set-top DVD recorder that actually does accept the M100 firewire output. For discs that require snazzy menus and the best quality, I'll take the long route of exporting and encoding. To confirm with you experts, the gospel on this seems to be to export as a self-contained movie, encode in BitVice, then burn to disc using DVD Studio Pro?





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FlohRe: Mastering M100i programs to set-top DVD recorder
by on Sep 23, 2006 at 8:14:54 pm

[Kit] "To confirm with you experts, the gospel on this seems to be to export as a self-contained movie, encode in BitVice, then burn to disc using DVD Studio Pro?"

I would export by reference to save space (if you are encoding on the same system), but overall yes.


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Kieran MatthewRe: Mastering M100i programs to set-top DVD recorder
by on Sep 24, 2006 at 12:01:34 am

Hi Kit,

The problem lies with some DVD recorders and Media 100 not speaking the same language when it comes to the control side of firewire. Media 100 is expecting a certain response from the DVD recorder that it doesn't know how to provide. The answer is to select "no machine control" in your hardware prefs, then master to tape with the DV box checked.

You have to start the DVD recorder running manually of course, but at least the pictures (and sound) are in all their digital loveliness.

As an asside though, one of the cow users (Jerome I think) posted a while back that he was using a Philips DVDR-615 that worked with Media 100 firewire control directly. If he's around, perhaps he can chip in with his experiences ?

K


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KitRe: Mastering M100i programs to set-top DVD recorder
by on Sep 24, 2006 at 3:46:22 am

Thanks for sticking with me on this one, Kieran. Regrettably, my problem isn't with M100 settings but rather with the engineering of my DVD recorder (and according to several retail sales people I've consulted, with most other consumer DVD recorders featuring a firewire input as well.) I'm not fussy about geting machine control through M100; I simply want to record a DV signal coming from my edit system into the set-top recorder. Even with "no machine control" selected and the DV box checked, it won't work. (By the way, the method you suggest is exactly what I do when mastering to DV tape onto my DSR11 deck. No frame accurate insert edit function, but it gets the show onto tape in all its "digital loveliness".) As soon as I set the DVD recorder's input to "DV", and connect the firewire from M100 to the recorder, a message appears on the TV screen from the DVD recorder saying "Uncontrollable device". And that's not referring to 'machine control', but rather to the recorder's inability to handle the DV signal. The manual specifies that "this recorder is only compatible with DV-format camcorders." What I don't understand is Why?? Apparently my naive assumption that all firewire standards were created equal is wrong. There must be a few obscure geniuses out there who understand the difference between a DV signal from a deck, a P6000 card, and a camcorder, but I don't expect to find one. (Actually, I thought Floh would know, but then I usually presume he knows everything...)

So, S-video it is, with BitVice and DVDSP as soon as I become smart enough to use them.

Kit



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Kieran MatthewRe: Mastering M100i programs to set-top DVD recorder
by on Sep 24, 2006 at 3:58:08 am

Hi Kit,

Ah! So the DVD recorder is asking media 100 to handshake ? I see. This feature of set-top DVD recorder control is something that was requested as a new feature a while back - I guess we'll have to wait and see!

In the meantime, I tested my method with my Liteon DVD recorder and it worked. It was quite cheap (under


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KitRe: Mastering M100i programs to set-top DVD recorder
by on Sep 24, 2006 at 3:59:50 am

Thanks for shedding so much "lite on" the DVD recorder discussion.



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Gary MilliganRe: Mastering M100i programs to set-top DVD recorder
by on Sep 24, 2006 at 7:26:07 am

I went through exactly the same things last year and the answer for me as well was a "Lite On". I found it has one of the easiest interfaces (other than typing in custom names... but I guess that's common to most of the set-tops out there). Mine is the Lite On LVW 5005. I use it mainly for client previews. If I author on DVD SP then I use Media 100i x/s ref out to BitVice. I also use it with a tape source deck (whatever format) to make time-code burn copies of field orig. for Producer screening dubs. On of the best $200 I've spent.



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topher944Re: Mastering M100i programs to set-top DVD recorder
by on Sep 25, 2006 at 12:18:12 am

Please search online forums carefully. I have read some really scathing reviews about the Lite On products. I recently purchased a new old stock Pioneer 320 for under 150 on ebay. Pioneer seems to have a decent rep. Hope this helps, Kind Regards, Chris


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Jerome RobbinsRe: Mastering M100i programs to set-top DVD recorder
by on Sep 28, 2006 at 5:49:10 am

[Kieran Matthew] "As an asside though, one of the cow users (Jerome I think) posted a while back that he was using a Philips DVDR-615 that worked with Media 100 firewire control directly. If he's around, perhaps he can chip in with his experiences ?"

It really is a great convenience to be able to make a DVD in realtime. The finalizing process takes only a couple of minutes. In the Hardware menu I select "no machine control and generic DV" then when you Master to Tape check the DV box hit the Master to tape button and manually hit record on the Philips 615 ( R+).

My Panasonic DMR-E60 (R-) will not accept the signal from Media 100. So, I sometimes will Master to Tape on my DSR-30 or DSR-11 deck and then output the firewire to the Panasonic Standalone recorder for a DVD.

If you still want to use your Desktop recorder for making DVDs for customers, I would suggest mastering to dv tape and then outputing via firewire to your deck. It is fast and for those customers that do not need menus it works just fine.

I personally do have BitVice and DVDStudioPro but spend the time to use them only on special as needed projects.

good luck,



jerome


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Michael SloweRe: Mastering M100i programs to set-top DVD recorder
by on Sep 28, 2006 at 10:05:07 am

Jerome, two questions regarding your latest post (28 Sept). Do you see a big quality difference between your direct record to a 'set top' DVD machine and what I would call a 'proper' encode, format and burn using BitVice and Studio Pro? And, do you find there are compatability issues with other players using a 'set top' recorder?

I found that quality is far better encoding properly and that the resultant DVD never causes problems in any player, regardless of what you do (2x, 4x, 8x forward and back, stop, start).


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Jerome RobbinsRe: Mastering M100i programs to set-top DVD recorder
by on Sep 28, 2006 at 2:19:46 pm

[Michael Slowe] " Do you see a big quality difference between your direct record to a 'set top' DVD machine and what I would call a 'proper' encode, format and burn using BitVice and Studio Pro? And, do you find there are compatability issues with other players using a 'set top' recorder?"

I am pretty new to Bitvice and StudioPro and at first the set top was definetly superior. However, after working with the settings I would rate them the same now.

As for compatibility issues, I have made hundreds and hundreds of DVDs on my 2 set tops (one is R+ & the other R-) over the last 4 years. I have only had 5 problems. Three were compatibility issues with their players being manufactured prior to 2000. The other 2 issues were with bad media.

For the last 8 months I always use Verbatim and Taiyo Yuden DVDs and have had no issues.

jerome


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Michael SloweRe: Mastering M100i programs to set-top DVD recorder
by on Sep 30, 2006 at 9:46:16 am

Thanks Jerome for your interesting answer. If there is no great difference in quality between the two methods of producing DVD's why are some of us (most?) spending time (six hours for fifteen minutes) and money (for BitVice and SP) compared to mastering straight to a set top box? Can Floh kindly comment please?


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Kieran MatthewRe: Mastering M100i programs to set-top DVD recorder
by on Sep 30, 2006 at 11:35:03 pm

Hi Michael,

Set-top DVD recorders get their quality from relatively high bit-rates and encode in CBR. Whereas this is fine for short videos, I have found that long periods of CBR can cause problems when playing in software DVD players on computers - the sustained rate leading to occasional skipping etc.

Software encoders give you the felxibility to fine tune your data rates etc, and with VBR and other filters/tricks can make things look nicer at lower data rates/file sizes. Handy when you are trying to cram over two hours on single layer DVD.

Again this is all about the best option for the job in hand.

You mention about the expense of DVD SP, but everything I make (even approval copies) generally come with nice menus, chapter points in relevant places, DVD-ROM content, and in some cases interactive functions courtesy of eDVD. For that kind of stuff you need software like DVDSP even if you are encoding via hardware.

K


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FlohRe: Mastering M100i programs to set-top DVD recorder
by on Oct 1, 2006 at 10:51:54 am

[Michael Slowe] "Thanks Jerome for your interesting answer. If there is no great difference in quality between the two methods of producing DVD's why are some of us (most?) spending time (six hours for fifteen minutes) and money (for BitVice and SP) compared to mastering straight to a set top box?"

There definitely is a difference between stuff encoded with BitVice and recorderd on Standalone recordes. Both have their advantages for some cases. The standalone recorders are obviosuly quicker, and we use them for a lot of client review discs. We produce several hours of TV-shows each week, and most of them go through 2 steps of client approval before going to the TV station. These previews are recorded to standalone recorders, since the content (plus the speed of delivery) is much more important than the image quality. Since the final shows get reviewed on DigiBeta or HDCam anyway before sending them out the quality of the DVD recorders is really enough there. Previously they got VHS tapes, so DVDs are obviously an improvement.
We did produce several commercial DVDs, and of course these are encoded via BitVice. But it seems like your BitVice encoding times are somewhat high. For SD source material we usually get ~3-4x realtime results with BitVice (3 to 4 hours for encoding one hour of material). So six hours for 15 minutes seems to be very high. Of course there is a difference when you


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