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Adobe and Wage Theft

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Peter Wiley
Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 25, 2014 at 10:34:00 am

From a recent issue of the New York Times

"In the days ahead, a settlement is expected in the antitrust lawsuit pitting 64,613 software engineers against Google, Apple, Intel and Adobe. The engineers say they lost up to $3 billion in wages from 2005-9, when the companies colluded in a scheme not to solicit one another’s employees. The collusion, according to the engineers, kept their pay lower than it would have been had the companies actually competed for talent.

"The suit, brought after the Justice Department investigated the anti-recruiting scheme in 2010, has many riveting aspects, including emails and other documents that tarnish the reputation of Silicon Valley as competitive and of technology executives as a new breed of “don’t-be-evil” bosses, to cite Google’s informal motto."

And reporting on the settlement. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/25/technology/settlement-silicon-valley-anti...

Anyone inclined to think that Adobe wouldn't abuse its market position hike CC subscription rates should consider its behavior in this area.

Executive Producer
Arbour Media LLC


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Gary Huff
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 25, 2014 at 11:17:07 am

[Peter Wiley] "
Anyone inclined to think that Adobe wouldn't abuse its market position hike CC subscription rates should consider its behavior in this area."


Apples and oranges. Plus, speaking of Apples...they get a pass?


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Peter Wiley
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 25, 2014 at 1:01:29 pm

No "pass" was intended. Apple isn't the subject of this thread, but obviously its behavior was equally bad.

My experience is that a party/group/company/corporation willing to use or tolerate bad behavior in one area is likely to use or tolerate it in another, feeling that if they can get away with one thing, they can get away with others. The same leadership that signed off on the anti-compete strategy is, more or less, the same leadership that signed off on the CC strategy and will sign off on price increases in time, I imagine.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 25, 2014 at 4:59:55 pm

[Peter Wiley] "Anyone inclined to think that Adobe wouldn't abuse its market position hike CC subscription rates should consider its behavior in this area."

Anyone inclined to think any company wouldn't abuse it's market position, if given the opportunity, should consider the behavior of the all of companies in this area.

Only in this forum does Adobe get singled out in a scheme initiated by Apple and ultimate including a who's who of Valley companies from Google and Intel to Lucasfilm and Intuit.


The NY Times piece is pretty superficial (as is most of the coverage that's just focused on the settlement). Pando Daily has much more extensive coverage. Below is a snippet from one article showing emails between Apple and Adobe.

http://pando.com/2014/01/23/the-techtopus-how-silicon-valleys-most-celebrat...

Shortly after sealing the pact with Google, Jobs strong-armed Adobe into joining after he complained to CEO Bruce Chizen that Adobe was recruiting Apple’s employees. Chizen sheepishly responded that he thought only a small class of employees were off-limits:

"I thought we agreed not to recruit any senior level employees…. I would propose we keep it that way. Open to discuss. It would be good to agree."

Jobs responded by threatening war:

"OK, I’ll tell our recruiters they are free to approach any Adobe employee who is not a Sr. Director or VP. Am I understanding your position correctly?"

Adobe’s Chizen immediately backed down:

"I’d rather agree NOT to actively solicit any employee from either company…..If you are in agreement, I will let my folks know."

The next day, Chizen let his folks — Adobe’s VP of Human Resources — know that “we are not to solicit ANY Apple employees, and visa versa.” Chizen was worried that if he didn’t agree, Jobs would make Adobe pay:

"if I tell Steve [Jobs] it’s open season (other than senior managers), he will deliberately poach Adobe just to prove a point. Knowing Steve, he will go after some of our top Mac talent…and he will do it in a way in which they will be enticed to come (extraordinary packages and Steve wooing)."

Indeed Jobs even threatened war against Google early 2005 before their “gentlemen’s agreement,” telling Sergey Brin to back off recruiting Apple’s Safari team:

"if you [Brin] hire a single one of these people that means war."

Brin immediately advised Google’s Executive Management Team to halt all recruiting of Apple employees until an agreement was discussed.


I'm actually disappointed that this didn't go to court as the paper trail left by these companies is surprisingly massive and the reported $300 million dollar settlement amount is chump change compared to the amount of revenue they generate. A court battle would've also given this issue more time in the public eye where as now it's remained very under the radar considering the size and the number of companies involved. I guess the plaintiff's lawyers just didn't want to go through what would've most likely turned into a long, drawn out court case.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 25, 2014 at 11:40:52 pm
Last Edited By Dave LaRonde on Apr 25, 2014 at 11:42:57 pm

[Gary Huff]: "Apples and oranges. Plus, speaking of Apples... they get a pass?"

Nope, they're listed, too. I'm not surprised one bit after the FCPX debacle. Both Apple and Adobe would seem to hold their software enginners, and likewise their customer bases, in similarly low esteem.

Caveat emptor.... or in Adobe's case "rentor", I guess.

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 26, 2014 at 12:47:19 am

[Dave LaRonde] "Nope, they're listed, too. "

Multiple companies collude, only Adobe gets called out by name by the OP as a company to be wary of. I think that was Gary's point.

I'm surprised no one has tried to pin Heartbleed on Adobe...

[Dave LaRonde] "Both Apple and Adobe would seem to hold their software enginners, and likewise their customer bases, in similarly low esteem."

Adobe apparently just held it's VP's and other higher-ups in low esteem as the rank and file workers were not part of Adobe's 'no poaching' policy until Steve Jobs contacted Adobe and threatened them with retaliation if they didn't comply with the full no poaching policy.

Palm was one of the few companies to resist Jobs' threats which is pretty impressive considering the rough waters Palm was already in at the time.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 26, 2014 at 1:19:46 am

[Andrew Kimery}: "...only Adobe gets called out by name by the OP as a company to be wary of..."

Well, this IS an Adobe forum.

I wonder who some malcontent would be prone to call out in the FCPX forum? Think it would be Adobe?

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Chris Pettit
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 26, 2014 at 1:30:08 am

[Dave LaRonde] "Well, this IS an Adobe forum."

I was trying hard to resist making this obvious point earlier (trying hard not to piss people off), but frankly I'm glad someone else said it


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 26, 2014 at 2:24:36 am
Last Edited By Andrew Kimery on Apr 26, 2014 at 2:25:56 am

[Dave LaRonde] "Well, this IS an Adobe forum. "

And unfortunately that seemingly means insightful discussions should be avoid in lieu of ragging on Adobe at every opportunity. Since Adobe is involved it's a great excuse to bring up corporate behavior and share thoughts and opinions about what went down. Instead it gets brought up solely to reinforce what an utterly evil and depraved company Adobe is (even though this evil depravity took place during the pre-CC years when Adobe loved its customers and everything was sunshine and lollipops).

I'm getting flashbacks to the security breach last year. Instead of taking that as an opportunity to discuss data security in general (which is a huge problem) people just painted Adobe as the worst, most irresponsible company on Earth for letting it happen even though a number of large companies were breached in 2013 too including Yahoo, Target, Evernote, Apple, Facebook, Twitter, Gmail and Equifax (yes, one of the three companies responsible for your credit score).

Anyway... for anyone actually interested it what conspired between all the companies involved I strongly suggest you check out the link to Pando Daily I posted previously. Pando has a number of in depth articles and they are very eye opening. Not just the hubris of doing so much of it via email (and even emailing things like "I think we should stop emailing because I'm pretty sure what we are doing is illegal) but the fact that it took place at companies that have such positive brand awareness. I mean, companies like Comcast and Electronic Arts have been voted "Worst Company in America" multiple times so people would probably expect them to act like this, but Apple (which regularly ranks #1 or #2 in consumer opinion polls) and Lucasfilm (and Pixar!) are 'supposed' to wear white hats, not black ones. Silicon Valley's left coast, granola, hippy facade was breached and, unsurprisingly, revealed cut a throat corporate environment.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 26, 2014 at 2:45:04 am

Aw, c'mon.

Whoever said Adobe stood alone in scurrulous behavior? I'd imagine on the FCPX forum(s), they'd tend to single out Apple if it was in league with a half-dozen other companies in underhanded dealings.

Then you'd have to rush to Apple's defense, I suppose.

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 26, 2014 at 5:28:36 am

[Dave LaRonde] "Then you'd have to rush to Apple's defense, I suppose."

Care to quote me where I'm defending the actions of any of the companies involved? At one point I specifically said I wish it would have gone to trial so as to increase the public exposure of what they did. I'm just wondering why it seems impossible to have an adult discussion about topical current events in this forum.

You thinking that I'm defending Adobe because I'm looking for a discussion rather than a predictable dog pile is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.


[Dave LaRonde] "Whoever said Adobe stood alone in scurrulous behavior? I'd imagine on the FCPX forum(s), they'd tend to single out Apple if it was in league with a half-dozen other companies in underhanded dealings. "

There's actually very little discussion about it on Mac-centric websites (and AFAIK no other discussion about it on the COW's forums). I assume the lack of interest is because 1. there has been a surprising lack of media coverage in general and 2. these Mac sites basically started as fans sites and Apple being the at the center of this collusion racket isn't exactly what fans of the company want to talk about and/or acknowledge.

On MacRumors (a huge Mac website) their thread about the settlement only has 42 comments (where as a recent thread on what code names might be used for future versions of Mac OS has over 200). There is talk about things like the settlement itself, corporate culture that leads to situations like this, etc.,. but there is no real singling out of Apple.

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1728763


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Oliver Peters
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 26, 2014 at 5:16:50 pm

And yet, in spite of it all, these companies are thoroughly populated by folks who have come over from other companies. Just look at the resumes of many of the product managers.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 26, 2014 at 8:37:32 pm

You have to keep in mind that the time frame for the collusion was from 2005-2010 (so still lots of resume building time for people that have been around for 20 or 30 years) and the collusion was not to actively recruit/poach from each other even though that's SOP for the Silicon Valley. For example, when gearing up for iPhone/iOS development Apple reportedly recruited 2% of Palm's staff and when Google was developing their Chrome browser they poached members of Apple's Safari team (not sure how many, but enough to get Jobs to threaten to 'go to war' if it didn't stop).

Even though active recruiting was banned employees were still supposed to be free to seek out other employment on their own though I read reports that that wasn't always the case. For example, sometimes if an employee from colluding Company A sought a job at colluding Company B, Company B would contact Company A and ask permission to make the hire. Many of the companies involved also shared employee compensation information so as to normalize pay and benefits across the board since employees would be less likely to leave if they couldn't find a better paying job.

The fluidity I think helps keep the tech sector competitive and it is also supposed to be the worker-side advantage of capitalism (i.e. companies will compete for the best workers). Even if some people excelled in spite the collusion that's no reason to downplay the significance of what these companies did.


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 27, 2014 at 7:12:15 pm

Bizarre how this story is somehow directly related to the monthly CC price and is rock-solid proof that evil Adobe will trap us all and then hike the fee. There is a threshold of pain for consumers, Adobe can't just wholly-nilly jack up prices as "revenge" on their subscribers. As of yet, we don't know what the threshold is - for most on this forum it seems Adobe could arrive at your door with a coupon for a lifetime of free software and you'd still look a gift horse in the mouth. Pitiful.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Ricardo Marty
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 27, 2014 at 9:35:09 pm
Last Edited By Ricardo Marty on Apr 27, 2014 at 9:56:07 pm

All companies wish in one way or another of having the market cornered. A monopoly is there wet dream.

Ricardo Cardona


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 27, 2014 at 11:44:11 pm

That's not true lance. bar anything else - there are genuine causes for concern with, say, to be hyperbolic, the moral centre of adobe going forward, given they have now forcibly removed all license ownership.

adobe have been historically rapacious to locked local markets, particularly in australia, where they indulged themselves with near Roman abandon.

the cause for concern is the likelihood that they would completely avoid this peccadillo for hammering locked markets once they've created an entirely locked subscription market out of the 30-40% subscription leftover remains they mulch out of their previous 12 million license holders.

look at this guy lance - I'm being genuinely serious with you now - please take the measure of him.
And the solution he is proposing to the issue of Adobe scalping the hell out of australian customers.







That is quite simply and flat out a mindbogglingly insincere performance. We're all of us animals in the end, and we base decisions on very low level signals of truth.

Hands up who - in their right minds - wants to go into an uncontrolled, key tool, lifetime monthly payment relationship with that company? Led by that CEO? Where they have now exercised virtually all of their stock options at board level after giving subscription red meat to wall street?

I swear to God: the raging levels of wilful stupidity around the basic issue of the Adobe there is versus the Adobe they project in PR would near drive you to drink. Like say a good merlot. Or possibly a sneaky pinot grigio.

If we ignore corporate history we are all doomed to repeat Australia. To paraphrase things.

Adobe haven't felt anything close to an honest broker in a long time.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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David Lawrence
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 28, 2014 at 2:41:33 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "If we ignore corporate history we are all doomed to repeat Australia. To paraphrase things."

This. ^

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Dominic Deacon
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 28, 2014 at 7:23:45 am
Last Edited By Dominic Deacon on Apr 28, 2014 at 7:41:57 am

Interestingly in Australia right now I seem to be being charged less for Adobe membership than the states. For some reason the photoshop package is being charged at $10AUD.

The CEOs performance there is awful but I think it's not quite the scam that's everyone is making out. The Australian dollar went nuts a few years ago so it made a product that was price locked like Adobe sotware look absurdly expensive. When the Aussie dollar was 50 cents to the US dollar no one complained about the cost of Adobe products. When all of a sudden the Aussie dollar was worth 110 US cents that locked pricing looked absurd. But is the cost of Adobe products supposed be tied to the value of the dollar and go up and down on the Adobe website each day compared to whats happening on the global market?

I'd say even when this video was made and the dollar was at its strongest that Adobe software was still massively more attainable for Australians than it was for Americans. Minimum wage here is near on to $20 an hour I don't know what it is in the States but I'm guessing it's no where near that. Simply us paying 50% more is about in line with wages I would say.


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 28, 2014 at 1:57:39 pm

[Dominic Deacon] "But is the cost of Adobe products supposed be tied to the value of the dollar and go up and down on the Adobe website each day compared to whats happening on the global market?"

Dominic,

There are jurisdictions where Adobe operates in precisely this way.

Franz.


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Dominic Deacon
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 28, 2014 at 9:59:31 pm

That's interesting but it's also unusual practice. Or at least it was unusual practice. To be a little more succinct on what I was saying above: When the Oz dollar hit 110 US cents everyone screamed that they were getting ripped off because Adobe didn't put the price down. When the Oz dollar plummetted to 50 US cents nobody applauded them for not putting the price up. It was just set at the price that Adobe considered fair/could-be-gotten-away-with and exchange rates had nothing to do with it.

Mind you while I don't have a problem with that you do have consider whether you want to hitch your wagon to the star of a company with a CEO who appears that dopey.


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 29, 2014 at 2:52:48 am

[Dominic Deacon] "When the Oz dollar hit 110 US cents everyone screamed that they were getting ripped off because Adobe didn't put the price down. When the Oz dollar plummetted to 50 US cents nobody applauded them for not putting the price up."

Dominic,

Here's a history of exchange rates:

http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=AUD&to=USD&view=10Y

I don't have a history of Adobe prices in Australia (but would be interested in such).

By my eye, the Australian dollar was more or less consistently above par for over two years previous to the date of the posted video (Feb 2013).

[Dominic Deacon] " That's interesting but it's also unusual practice."

I'm not sure what this means.

It's possible practice. And more, it's actual practice - something Adobe actually did and does today. The question is why were they not doing it in Australia.

From the video we are left with the answer that either the CEO doesn't know or doesn't want to say.

Franz.


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Dominic Deacon
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 29, 2014 at 7:16:05 am

[Franz Bieberkopf] "I don't have a history of Adobe prices in Australia (but would be interested in such).

By my eye, the Australian dollar was more or less consistently above par for over two years previous to the date of the posted video (Feb 2013)."


I don't have a history of that either but I've always had half an eye on Adobe prices and I don't recall them moving with exchange rates at any point. Most things didn't. During that freakish period when this video was made and the Oz dollar was at parity or above we were the most expensive place in the world to buy lots of things.

If Adobe is tying their pricing to exchange rates I don't like that at all. Now I don't only have to worry about Adobe ramping the rental prices but also the OZ dollar going through the floor. Which it will do.

I would prefer that Adobe sets a price that is fair to the relative buying power of the Australian public rather than tying it to the constantly yo-yoing Australian dollar. There will be times when we get screwed. There will be times when we'll get a bargain. But at least we'll not have that massive variable of the dollars value constantly sitting there.


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Richard Herd
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 30, 2014 at 12:23:04 am

[Dominic Deacon] "Minimum wage here is near on to $20 an hour I don't know what it is in the States but I'm guessing it's no where near that."

Here's more information. http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/america.htm


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David Mathis
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 28, 2014 at 4:08:16 pm

All that I can here is, "Wow!"


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 28, 2014 at 7:52:53 pm

We all have a choice - Adobe is not the only game in tow and they cannot raise prices beyond a certain threshold of pain for the consumer. I don't care about the CEO of Adobe or any other company - if I did I'd certainly never use an Apple product ever again as Steve Jobs was probably the most dastardly CEO in business history.

I use Premiere right now because it is good software overall, clients like it and it fits fine in my current business model. BUT, I will be testing out Resolve 11 and if its editing capabilities suite me then I will have no problem scaling back to the Photoshop only plan for $9.99 mo. or just switching back to CS6 or PhotoPaint because, like most here, I'd rather "own" my software.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Chris Pettit
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 29, 2014 at 3:06:08 am

[Lance Bachelder] "We all have a choice - Adobe is not the only game in tow"

Same argument, different day. Lots of people pronouncing edicts in regards to other peoples business's workflow that they don't actually even understand. Whatever your thoughts in regard to Adobe mandatory CC: Doesn't make you an expert at what OTHER people are struggling with business-wise.

Now that so many companies like mine have committed (foolishly trusting Adobe- silly me) to the CS ecosystem a long time ago, where do I go exactly if not accepting being forced into lifelong subscriptiosn? Many on this forum only concern themselves with PPro and FCP vs FCX. How sublimely easy that equation must be for them.

What about staged, multi-vendor motion graphics? What about composting with those same assets? What about the NLE-to-finishing pipeline (dynamic linking)? What about complex application development with integrated video assets? What about the ENORMOUS investment that my programers have in Action Script 3.0 for interactive touchscreen development and it's relationship with database and lead retrieval interfaces? What about all the PSD, AI, PDF, ID, FL, AE, and other Adobe proprietary formats that I receive daily from clients and vendors (keep in mind that vendors are struggling with the same issues with me because I wont accept CC formatted files? That's just the beginning of my problems created by mandatory CC. I could go on for a week.

What a simple life I would live with only NLE concerns to confront me daily.


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David Mathis
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 29, 2014 at 5:54:20 pm

Chris, well said! Been looking a Pixelmator as a possible alternative to Photoshop but not so sure how it will interact with Motion, assuming that it will.

Here is what my plans are, for now:

1. Final Cut Pro X for editing and some finishing tasks

2. Resolve for color grading and finishing

4. Motion and Pixelmator for motion graphics

I still think highly of the products that Adobe does offer but respectfully I strongly disagree with the current subscription model. Nothing personal, just does not meet my needs at the moment.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 29, 2014 at 6:11:25 pm

[David Mathis] "Been looking a Pixelmator as a possible alternative to Photoshop but not so sure how it will interact with Motion"

Here's a review I wrote about it.

http://digitalfilms.wordpress.com/2013/07/20/pixelmator/

Also this.

http://digitalfilms.wordpress.com/2013/12/21/photo-phun-ii/

Whether or not it is sufficient depends on how much you use in Photoshop. You can export layered Photoshop files with Pixelmator, but any effects have to be flattened. Then it should look the same to FCP X as if you did the same in Photoshop. Of course, other flat file formats are fine as well.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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David Mathis
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 29, 2014 at 7:00:25 pm

Thank you. Very well done review, clear, concise, no non-sense and straight to the point. Is it possible to save out one file with flattened layers and another with everything that changes could be made to at a later time? Again, thank you for that review.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 29, 2014 at 7:17:55 pm

Thanks.

[David Mathis] " Is it possible to save out one file with flattened layers and another with everything that changes could be made to at a later time?"

You work in a Pixelmator project file. The other graphics formats are export choices. You can dupe the project file and then make the changes you need before exporting. So, you could have a master version with vectors and effects. Then dupe it and modify the layers before exporting a Photoshop file.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 29, 2014 at 7:21:57 pm

PS: Pixelmator is also iCloud-compatible. You can save your files in your online iCloud location if you have an iCloud account.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 29, 2014 at 8:32:00 pm

I worked on it for about a month doing on site edits with overlays and title boards for the london olympics. Everyone at the different sites had FCP legend and pixelmator. My general impression was that you could get stuff done in it knowing PS - but it is a country mile from PS.

As walter pointed out before, the problem is the massive investment involved in really challenging PS. I wouldn't even be looking for raw adjustments and liquefy - there is a fundamental lack of sophistication in the basic tools. i'd find myself staring hard at it trying to figure out rapid sidesteps for really basic workflow issues. A lot of it, as I remember, had to do with selections, masking and channels.

that said I've got PS CS6 - I'm inclined to think that will do me personally until we run out of oil.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Oliver Peters
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 29, 2014 at 8:49:55 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "I wouldn't even be looking for raw adjustments and liquefy - there is a fundamental lack of sophistication in the basic tools. "

I don't think Pixelmator is designed for that. Basically the software is designed around Apple's core image technology and Quartz Composer. It's optimized for that, so it is fast and lightweight, but also limited in many ways. But, an interesting by-product, is that any video plug-ins that are based on Quartz Composer (like some of the FxFactory filters), also so up and work inside Pixelmator.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 29, 2014 at 9:02:21 pm

sure - I love it for that. Pixelmator says as much about apple as it does anything. I always thought quartz was sort of incredible from the beginning - just the antithesis to MS back in the day. As in how apple saw the operating system's role and the kinds of things they believed should be provisioned.

I totally get that pixelmator has a certain architecture - its just even in my loonier diatribes - its nearly impossible to see it growing into a challenger to even core PS.

also I really should not be dropping the olympics line - I was super low end local VT screens. there were forty of us at it. It was just interesting insofar as it was the first time I saw pixelmator deployed like that. it can definitely get stuff done, and if you were bloody minded you could get serious stuff done, but if even photoshop 4 was on the dock there would be no reason to use it.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 29, 2014 at 6:46:05 pm

You took the words out of my mouth


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 29, 2014 at 9:30:27 pm

Answer's still the same - find alternative apps - simple. If you can't then what's the prob? Adobe isn't asking $5,000 a year per seat like some are - it doesn't cost anymore than the old model for those that upgraded regularly (every NAB or so) and Adobe isn't caving to a few disgruntled folks here at the Cow. It may suck but that's the way it is...

By the way Chris, I actually am an expert - kinda why I've been asked back for multiple NAB's to work for one of the most respected companies in our industry. I've built post facilities for studio feature films and Emmy-winning TV shows and then got in the Editors chair and cranked out shows all while supervising the entire post team.

The Adobe subscription may hurt the hobbyist (do they really need the suite anyway?) but for anyone making money in our biz it's painless unless you choose to make it a pain - which some here obviously choose to do.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Chris Pettit
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 29, 2014 at 9:37:47 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "By the way Chris, I actually am an expert - kinda why I've been asked back for multiple NAB's to work for one of the most respected companies in our industry. I've built post facilities for studio feature films and Emmy-winning TV shows and then got in the Editors chair and cranked out shows all while supervising the entire post team."

And this makes you an expert regarding my business how? I'm not saying you don't know what you're doing. With your business

What I am saying is you have no frame of reference whatsoever to tell other companies what THEY should do. Why is empathy in this regard so hard? I honestly, sincerely don't understand the thinking.


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 29, 2014 at 10:47:15 pm

If you're saying you absolutely must have Adobe products for your business to succeed and yet you refuse to use the products you need to succeed because you don't like to way they make you purchase their product then, not only do I not have a lick of empathy for you, I think you're a truly lousy businessperson.

Being successful running a company is all about decision making, overcoming obstacles and adapting. There's always an alternate solution and again, Adobe is not the only game in town.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Chris Pettit
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 29, 2014 at 11:46:25 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "not only do I not have a lick of empathy for you, I think you're a truly lousy businessperson."

I simply can't imagine saying something like that to another person, developer, artist, fellow Adobe customer.

I continue to be truly amazed by how ugly this whole discussion has become.


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 30, 2014 at 2:04:10 am

You started the personal nastiness with me - I think I qualified my statement clearly. I've seen your website - you obviously have a nice business and know what you're doing but if you're going to whine all your days about how Adobe has hurt you and see no solution other than to protest for the rest of your days, then just move on and open a Subway or something.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Chris Pettit
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 30, 2014 at 3:32:56 am

[Lance Bachelder] "....then just move on and open a Subway or something."

Coup de grâce. My true calling is preparing sandwiches.

Thanks so much for setting me straight.


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 30, 2014 at 8:52:45 am

This is just the internet - not everything is meant to be taken literally - but if you truly believe sandwiches are your calling then hey, at least you won't have to deal with the evil Adobe anymore... but what will you do if Subway suddenly jacks up the price of turkey breast or makes you buy a new bread oven? I'm sure there must be a Subway/sandwich makers forum somewhere that you'll be able to cry to.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Richard Herd
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 30, 2014 at 12:45:48 am

Yeah Chris, the lack of empathy is definitely ridiculous. It's the internet. Next we'll be calling eachother hitler.

In more serious tone, in an earlier incarnation of my career, I used Scala products and Alpha Video products to access databases and touchscreen type interfaces. Using those products, dynamic data were pulled from multiple streams of data and integrated into video, sometimes on top of pre-canned video, other times on dynamic mograph. I'm not saying a switch is possible or the correct decision, but I can be emailed richardmherd@yahoo.com and I will gladly refer you to some amazing people.

Thanks!
Rich


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 29, 2014 at 9:56:02 pm
Last Edited By Aindreas Gallagher on Apr 29, 2014 at 10:19:29 pm

there's no essential harm invisibly kicking their sixty foot shins here though - right Lance?

you'd think they could have gone about the entire thing differently. they were never meant to be the 5,000 dollar license company.
It's hard to think John Warnock had any of this in mind.

They had 12 million licensed customers built up over a quarter century and around eight million less desirable ones are off to the woodshed. let's see what happens when they start really hitting the third that remain.

Adobe are not supposed to be that company. They could have handled this a lot differently.
Bar anything else, jettisoning that eight million, by their own initial forecasts - is starting to look completely insane.

*edit* actually in all honesty - who here among us doesn't think that the scale of the adobe license cull is sort of insane?
given they appear to have had a comparable avid style avenue to lock at least a couple of million current license holders into running maintenance feature subscription style current license lock ins? - granted with an illusory sense of ownership - but so as to allow them to continue?

why exactly do you dropkick two thirds of your twelve MILLION license holders out the door?

what was this all for exactly? What was the reasoning?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 29, 2014 at 10:50:52 pm

Kick away! But if they've got really good shin guards and sound-proof ear plugs then it may be futile, even if a little fun.

I just think the best way to fight the battle is to not patronize whoever you're fighting - that's my long term plan...

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 30, 2014 at 12:01:30 am

honestly the Resolve 11 NLE is the weirdest sudden thing I've ever seen. If only because adobe are lynching themselves to a VA future.
I was nearly shocked watching all the 11 stuff. It looks like the worst possible thing adobe could see.

The Adobe that now constantly state premiere is the hub core with branches cropping out of it, and AE operability is being considered with respect to premiere.
I cannot think of the last time adobe declared themselves as a web company, or that muse or the edge tools were key components, or the last time they publicly spoke of themselves moving design publishing forward. some of that is quiet monopoly but still.

If they were to be trumped as a mid level core NLE by a better team waving free resolve finishing in the next 24 months - that would be flat out hilarious given that they are banking a mile on the development of premiere.
adobe have nuked two thirds of their customers and all their good will - they have ceded the web, and they have dumped an engineering metric ton into a VA editing hub hail mary with premiere.

what happens if they simply lose that? What if their lunch is eaten. They get bought and broken up right? We forget their insane rental ambitions and buy the leftovers?

then the drama ends. It wasn't that bad with resolve right? Wasn't that a fresh and interesting development?

Adobe's arguments feel like the argument of a press owner in retreat - spitting against the likes of vox or politico or the verge say, arguing that their right to the construct across all creative disciplines should somehow be theirs. I personally think it's an increasingly poor argument, and that adobe might be an impediment to better thinking in all creative directions.

What if this is all true and adobe should be atomised and dismembered? We catch all the software right?
and everything moves on?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 30, 2014 at 1:59:56 am

My initial thought while getting a demo of Resolve 11 at NAB was this is the greatest thing I've ever seen - it's what I've dreamed of since... forever. No "round-tripping", just edit, click. color, click, edit, click, deliver...

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 30, 2014 at 3:19:36 am

Looking forward to getting it, at least a trial. Have the newest Blackmagic hardware and the Tube. Worth it to me if just for grading (Lite). If that works, probably the $995 version.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 30, 2014 at 8:47:21 am

I agree it will be nice to give it a full test for FREE and if all is good go ahead and buy the $999 version to add noise reduction etc. Keeping my fingers crossed...

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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David Mathis
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 30, 2014 at 4:05:44 pm

I do not think that Resolve 11 poses much of a problem for Premiere Pro at the moment. A few things, like multicam, is not part of the feature set. I do see Resolve making a massive amount of progress and once additional features are added things are going to get very interesting.

My two cents, whatever it is worth.


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 30, 2014 at 5:38:08 pm

"at the moment" meaning between now and its release? Free world-class software (assuming it's not riddled with bugs) could pose a threat to more than Adobe. I would think those who make a living cutting multi-cam shows would be the most hesitant to make a switch if they're happy with their current NLE even if Resolve had multi-cam, but for everyone else, Mac or PC, it may be a no-brainer...

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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David Mathis
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 30, 2014 at 6:35:09 pm

I was referring to version 11, just to clear up any confusion. Too early to tell but it looks like the new version will create some serious competition.

I want to add Red Giant Universe to the list of serious competition as well. Just very recently Universe is now in full swing and just signed up. Hoping that this will be supported in Resolve as well, really like this model. Now that Boris is jumping on board with Resolve support Premiere Pro is now facing another serious contender as well as Avid and other editing software out there.

There is no serious competition to After Effects for motion graphics but for anyone with a large wallet there is The Foundry Nuke though it is node based.

Was considering Pixelmator, at the price it looks really solid. Just not sure if I am sold on it at the moment. Probably will make a purchase soon.

I am not completely shutting out the idea of making a Photoshop CS6 purchase, just not sure what is in store for it down the road.

My two cents, whatever it is worth.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 30, 2014 at 6:56:14 pm

Regarding multicam, everyone seems to really like the FCP X approach and FCP X has very tight integration with Resolve 11. That adds $300 to the mix (on top of free). Just run both.

[David Mathis] "Hoping that this will be supported in Resolve as well, really like this model. Now that Boris is jumping on board with Resolve"

I would expect to see more folks get on board with OFX in the future, since you now have a free host that could be ubiquitous. I think Boris BCC 9 is $700 for the OFX version. My guess is you'll see Universe there, too.

[David Mathis] "There is no serious competition to After Effects for motion graphics"

While this is true, if you aren't tied to existing AE project/client compatibility, you do have Motion, Boris RED and EyeOn Fusion (PC) as viable options.

[David Mathis] "Was considering Pixelmator, at the price it looks really solid. Just not sure if I am sold on it at the moment. "

At the price, it's a good option to have anyway. Or just buy Photoshop CS6 outright. Or an older version on E-bay. Or Corel Painter.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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David Mathis
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on May 4, 2014 at 8:41:47 pm

Stupid question time but is there anyway you can edit an effect after you apply to it a layer in Pixelmator? I have just made a purchase but so far not able to find a way to edit effects. Not a major downside, considering the price but would be useful to have.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on May 4, 2014 at 9:09:10 pm

[David Mathis] "Stupid question time but is there anyway you can edit an effect after you apply to it a layer in Pixelmator?"

It doesn't appear to be the case. These are like Photoshop filters, which also cannot be edited after the fact. These aren't adjustment layer effects. Once you accept the change, it's committed.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on May 4, 2014 at 9:15:54 pm

PS: Generate rule would be to work in layers and duplicate as you go along. Then you can trash a layer and reapply the effect with changes.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Herbert van der wegen
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 30, 2014 at 8:05:13 pm
Last Edited By Herbert van der wegen on Apr 30, 2014 at 8:08:29 pm

Also consider Photoline. It's pretty much Photoshop without the 3d and video functionality of Photoshop, and offers full adjustment layers and layer effects. It will even load up psd files with most common adjustment layers and layer effects intact.

The layer mask system and virtual layer system blow Photoshop out of the water: you can even recycle layer masks (which coincidentally can also be groups of layers) anywhere in your layer stack non-destructively.
And any layer can be in its own individual image mode: so one layer can be in Lab 32bpc, while another in the same(!) layer stack can be set to rgb 16bpc. And yet another in cmyk 8bpc. It's immensely liberating.

Layers can also be externally referenced (loading up live linked external files in a layer is possible in the newer betas). And virtual (cloned instanced) layers update in realtime and can be edited in place, unlike Photoshop's clunky smart objects.

And it supports multi-layered 32bpc EXR files out of the box! And multi-page documents and full (real!) vector layers can done in Photoline as well. It writes and reads pdf and svg files, even importing multi-page pdf files.

For almost two years I have been Photoshop free for my personal and professional work. Photoline is far, FAR more powerful than Pixelmator. It's really on par with Photoshop in terms of image editing, and in some respects provides a more efficient workflow. And you get a full perpetual license for $79, while updates are about $40. The full download is only ~20mb(!), and can be installed as a portable application on a usb drive if required.

And for digital painting Krita is hard to beat nowadays - it is arguably a great improvement over Photoshop. Free and open source, Photoline hooks up to Krita with its app link that allows for layers and files to be opened in external files, make edits, and then have those edits update automatically.

Get those two, and forget Photoshop. (Although Krita for Mac is still a work in progress, unfortunately).

/*----------------------------------------------------*/
System: Win7 64bit - i7 920@3.6Ghz, p6t Deluxe v1, 48gb (6x8gb RipjawsX), ATI 7970 3gb, EVGA 590 3GB, Revodrive X2 240gb, e-mu 1820. Screens: 2 x Samsung s27a850ds 2560x1440, HP 1920x1200 in portrait mode


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David Mathis
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on May 7, 2014 at 1:08:53 pm

Just recently purchase Pixelmator, not really a great program as it does not include needed features but for the price that is to be expected.

You mentioned Photoline which I am interested in looking at. Will it allow you to edit effects you apply to layers, at a later time or is it once you commit it is done? This is the way Pixelmator works which makes the workflow a real pain.

Hoping to save two copies of my work. One so that any necessary changes can be made later, the other to ship stuff out to use in Motion for motion graphics and such.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on May 7, 2014 at 1:32:50 pm

[David Mathis] "Will it allow you to edit effects you apply to layers, at a later time or is it once you commit it is done? This is the way Pixelmator works which makes the workflow a real pain."

You do realize that Photoshop doesn't allow you to do this either (filter effects are baked). Right?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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David Mathis
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on May 7, 2014 at 2:15:05 pm

Was thinking of in terms of smart filters, which do allow you to make further changes or delete the filter all together.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on May 7, 2014 at 2:41:16 pm

[David Mathis] "Was thinking of in terms of smart filters, which do allow you to make further changes or delete the filter all together."

Building on David's point, Photoshop's workflow has become a lot less destructive over the last few versions, via ever-increasing development of smart objects and smart filters.

This is one of the reasons I don't understand people when they say, "Oh, Photoshop CS(x) was good enough; they haven't added anything worthwhile in (y) versions." The workflow today is so much more flexible than it was a few years ago.

But of course there is still room for improvement. PhotoLine has some great ideas that I wish Photoshop had.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Richard Herd
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 30, 2014 at 12:47:08 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "what was this all for exactly? What was the reasoning?"

You're kidding right?


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on Apr 30, 2014 at 12:01:50 pm







http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on May 2, 2014 at 2:06:34 pm

The only problem with the Alfie visual metaphor, is that corporations aren't "kind" or "cruel", they exist to make money, and the way they make that money makes us anthropomorphize them into being one or the other. But it was nice to see that clip. Thanks.

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: Adobe and Wage Theft
on May 2, 2014 at 3:03:29 pm

And, you know, Aindreas' post got me thinking about how selectively we anthropomorphize companies. While many seem comfortable with making Adobe look like the ravenous killer, based on their CEO (and I agree wholeheartedly with those who think he's a bonehead), and their business practices (going to the rental/lease model), I never see the same attacks going toward sports teams, and few other corporations. A perfect example is basketball's Clippers, whose owner has got to be one of the meanest, most bigoted excuse for a human who currently walks the face of the earth. Nowhere have I seen anyone calling the team to task for rapacious ticket prices, and an owner who would seem more comfortable under the apartheid sports model of the thirties. Yet the players still play, and the fans flock to the games wearing the colors of the team they still love.

Is it because we make our living using the company's products that we think of them as a "business partner", and humanize them? I'm thinking out loud here...

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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