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My NAS goal is to not make Bob Zelin upset

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Edan Cohen
My NAS goal is to not make Bob Zelin upset
on Jan 19, 2019 at 1:46:40 pm
Last Edited By Edan Cohen on Jan 19, 2019 at 1:49:38 pm

Here is what I am thinking about purchasing for my NAS needs. Feel free to suggest an updated or better NAS. And let's try to keep Bob happy. =)

Background: Video production firm with 2 Windows 10 PCs. We shoot with Blackmagic cameras so we edit a lot of UHD and 4K files for 1080p delivery. We also edit a lot of client supplied 1080p footage.

My NAS choice: QNAP TVS-873e (I will add 2 10Gbe cards)

For the Windows 10 PCs - I will install a 10Gbe card in each -- looking for recommendations for cards, currently thinking of going with the QNAP version

Drives: 2 or 4TB of either WD Red or Seagate Ironwolf (16TB or 32TB is more than enough for us right now)

Question: Am I able to homerun each CAT6 cable into the NAS and bypass a switch? If this is possible, does the NAS itself need to be on a network, or will it create a local network just for the 2 PCs?

I look forward to your thoughts and advice.


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Bob Zelin
Re: My NAS goal is to not make Bob Zelin upset
on Jan 19, 2019 at 6:16:37 pm

upset me ? Why would you think that ☺

the TVS-873e is great. Instead of getting TWO 10G cards, get a single LAN-10G2T-X550 dual port 10G card.
Each can be assigned to each of your PC's. And yes, if you are running Win 10, with at least x4 lane slots in the PC that are available for a NIC card, get the QNAP QXG-10G1T card. You will get the drivers to run this from the Aquantia website (this is the same chip that is used in the iMac Pro for 10G). It's an $89 card.

As of mid January, I prefer the newer TVS-872TX, but it's $1899 and the TVS-873e is cheaper. Make sure to get at least 8 gig of RAM, and not the 4 Gig model.

As for WD RED drives, MAKE SURE they are the WD RED Pro, as the Pro are 7200 RPM and the regular RED are 5400 RPM, which will make your TVS-873e only be able to do 450 MB/sec. And yes, you need ALL EIGHT DRIVES, and you need them now - day 1.

And you don't need a switch.

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Edan Cohen
Re: My NAS goal is to not make Bob Zelin upset
on Jan 19, 2019 at 8:46:09 pm

Thanks, Bob! You’re doing the lord’s work. I’ll update you once I’ve set this up and get it running.


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Don Walker
Re: My NAS goal is to not make Bob Zelin upset
on Jan 28, 2019 at 11:49:00 pm

[Bob Zelin] "As for WD RED drives, MAKE SURE they are the WD RED Pro, as the Pro are 7200 RPM and the regular RED are 5400 RPM, which will make your TVS-873e only be able to do 450 MB/sec."

I don't understand the math here. Assuming Raid 5, if you have 7 drives available for data @175MB/sec that turns out to be a theoretical 1225MB/s. Raid 6 would be 1050. Are you formatting the NAS Raid 50?

don walker
texarkana, texas

John 3:16


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Bob Zelin
Re: My NAS goal is to not make Bob Zelin upset
on Jan 30, 2019 at 12:45:32 am
Last Edited By Bob Zelin on Jan 30, 2019 at 3:32:06 am

I don't understand the math, nor do I care (no offense).
I can tell you from practical experience. You get exactly what you said - about 1000 (1050 - whatever) - MB/sec with the better QNAP or Synology products with a 10G interface on your Mac or PC computer - if you are using (for example) a TVS-871T, TVS-872XT, TVS-1282T, TS-1677X, TS-1685. If you use one of the CHEAPER 8 bay boxes, like the TVS-873e, you don't get this bandwidth. Specifically, if you do an 8 drive RAID 6 with a TVS-873e with QNAP QXG-10G1, you only get 500 MB/sec write, and 1000 MB/sec READ. The more expensive boxes with the same 10G card get 1000 MB/sec WRITE. If you are using a "good box" but with drives that only spin at 5400 RPM (WD RED) as opposed to 7200 RPM (WD RED Pro or Seagate Ironwolf drives) - THEN you get the 450 MB/sec Read and Write. I just did this with someone in Europe. I could not figure out why he was getting such slow speeds with the TVS-873e and the WD drives. I then looked up the model # and saw these were 5400 RPM drives (the WD RED, not the WD RED Pro, which are 7200 RPM).

This applies to every variable in the equation. If you have a "10G Network" and your network adaptor card or thunderbolt adaptor is based on an Intel X520, X540, X550 or Aquantia AQC-107, then you get this bandwidth.
But if your 10G adaptor is using a Tehuti 10G chip, then you get CRAPPY SLOW 10G speeds.

Different products have different performance. I see on the QNAP forums people crying about their slow 10G speeds when they buy the cheap QNAP boxes that have the Tehuti 10G chips, or the cheap Annapurna CPU, instead of the Intel or AMD Ryzen. Theory means nothing - all that matters is real world performance.
And the only way to find out is through clinical testing. I just install a lot of systems, and believe me - I make plenty of bad choices. That's how I find out what does - and what does not - work.

If you want to achieve 1000 MB/sec Read/Write (900 MB/sec, whatever) - you use a "better box" (like the TVS-872XT which is currently $1899 with the 10G port) and 7200 RPM drives in a RAID 6 group, and you will get these speeds.
If you say "well - that doesn't make sense - how come you can't use a QNAP TS-831X 8 bay which is under $1000 with a 10G port, and get these same speeds" - I don't know and I don't care. It's probably due to the Annapurna processor in these cheaper boxes.

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Edan Cohen
Re: My NAS goal is to not make Bob Zelin upset
on Jan 30, 2019 at 4:28:54 pm

You upset, Bob. We literally had one job to in this thread and we failed.


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Bob Zelin
Re: My NAS goal is to not make Bob Zelin upset
on Jan 30, 2019 at 6:38:01 pm

well, I hope I did not upset you, Edan. I hope that I gave you accurate information.
What I observe, is that no matter what the "facts" are - many people feel that "theoretically, this should work", which is often not the case. And when you present clinical evidence, they become upset (like trying to edit using thunderbolt 2 instead of 10G for multiple users).

How often have you gone to a physician, they prescribe a medicine, and it does not agree with you, or it does not work well ? Well - that physician has reps from drug companies that come into their office and say "use this, this works great for XYZ". It comes from an accredited pharmaceutical company, so they try it. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. And of course, video and computers is no where as important as medicine.

My general observation, is that there are many wonderful companies out there. But pretty much everyone makes excellent stuff, and they make some "junk". And in defense of some of the "junk" - this junk is not junk if it is used in the recommended manner by the manufacturer. A wonderful example of this is the Studio Network Solutions Prodigy, which is a tiny 4 bay NAS. SNS makes fantastic shared storage systems, like the EVO series, but the Prodigy is their tiny entry level product that works as intended if you listen to SNS. But I have seen users purchase a SNS Prodigy, hook it up to a 24 port 10G switch, and complain that they can't get 24 people on iMacs to be able to playback without stuttering issues. Because THOSE PEOPLE want to get the cheapest thing possible from a manufacturer that they trust. And the reality is - the more expensive stuff can outperform the cheap entry level products.

And this certainly applies to QNAP. I see people get the cheapest QNAP with 10G port, the cheapest slow drives, the cheapest switch, and say "oh - this stuff is just garbage". Well of course it is - you bought all the wrong equipment.
Because all that matters to you is that it's the cheapest thing you can find - and now it doesn't work, and you want to complain to someone that you spend "all this money" and it's not working.

I see the same thing with people that own obsolete equipment, try to do a software update or firmware update, and it doesn't perform as well as new equipment, even though their equipment is from 2004. What can I say.
Most manufacturers ignore people like this. I just like to yell at them. They deserve to have steam come out of their ears.

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Glen Carruthers
Re: My NAS goal is to not make Bob Zelin upset
on Jan 31, 2019 at 7:58:07 am

I have similar needs to Edan. 2 PCs or 1 PC + 1 mac to share one QNAP.

The TVS-872TS does look like a worthy replacement to the wonderful TVS-871T.
But it only has one 10GbE port coming from the soldered-in Aquantia chip.
What would be the best way to network just 2 PCs to the 872TS?

Add a 10GbE NIC to the spare x4 slot (it's PCIe3x4 from PCH)?
Would that work without the need for a switch?

Use a switch?

Somehow use Thunderbolt or a Thunderbolt to 10GbE adapter?
(I hope that suggestion does not make Bob upset )

Glen Carruthers
Cameraman/Producer
Australia


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Bob Zelin
Re: My NAS goal is to not make Bob Zelin upset
on Jan 31, 2019 at 12:42:04 pm

Hi Glen -
the TVS-872XT has 2 PCIe slots. One is taken up by a thunderbolt 3 dual port card. The slot below this is empty.
You can add a QNAP QXG-10G1T ($89) or a dual port QNAP LAN-10G2T-X550 ($359) and have more 10G ports for direct connection. Of course, the correct thing to do - which would require spending a little more ($589) is to get a small 10G switch like the QNAP QSW-1208-8C. You plug the single Aquantia 10G port on the TVS-872XT into the
QNAP switch, and now you have seven computers that you can plug into the switch, all that can connect to the QNAP TVX-872XT (which by the way, is $1899 US).

For your Win 10 PC's, you add the QNAP QXG-10G1T card into the PCIe slot. For your Thunderbolt 3 Mac, you connect a Sonnet Solo 10G thunderbolt to 10G adaptor. For a Thunderbolt 2 computer, you connect a Sonnet Twin 10G thunderbolt to 10G adaptor. No, you can't get the cheaper Solo 10G to work on your thunderbolt 2 computer using an adaptor cable.

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Edan Cohen
Re: My NAS goal is to not make Bob Zelin upset
on Jan 31, 2019 at 3:06:54 pm

Hi Bob - what's your email? I may be interested in having you optimize the NAS I just set up.


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Bob Zelin
Re: My NAS goal is to not make Bob Zelin upset
on Feb 1, 2019 at 1:34:15 am

Hi Edan

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Glen Carruthers
Re: My NAS goal is to not make Bob Zelin upset
on Feb 1, 2019 at 11:31:40 am

Thanks Bob for your comprehensive answer.

I understand and agree with all that you have suggested.

However, I am still confused as to what the QNAP NAS actually can or cannot do.
Call me stupid, but I have read and re-read the QNAP blurbs on it's LAN, SAN & (supposed) Thunderbolt networking capabilities (and your excellent posts on the subject) but still can't work it out.

As an independant film-maker of one long-form documentary at a time I need a fast 4k+ capable Edit station plus a less-capable Assistant Edit station (searching shots, organising metadata, bins etc to feed to the main Edit station) connected to the same source footage. I could use the Collaboration features of Resolve Studio to handle real-time conflicts.

If I connect these 2 (& I mean only 2, no need for more) workstations in an isolated network to the QNAP NAS using it's 2 separate 10GbE ports can it act as a "LAN controller" or even better a "SAN server" without the need for extra hardware or software ?

Or would it still need a switch (to avoid LAN static addresses etc)?

Or would it still need a separate server & SAN software?

I don't want to trouble you with a detailed explanation.
Simple answers will suffice. Then I will contact you to help set it up.

All the best, Glen

Glen Carruthers
Wildlife Cameraman
Australia


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Bob Zelin
Re: My NAS goal is to not make Bob Zelin upset
on Feb 1, 2019 at 1:49:09 pm

As an independant film-maker of one long-form documentary at a time I need a fast 4k+ capable Edit station plus a less-capable Assistant Edit station (searching shots, organising metadata, bins etc to feed to the main Edit station) connected to the same source footage. I could use the Collaboration features of Resolve Studio to handle real-time conflicts.

REPLY - to use the Collaboration feature of Resolve Studio, you need the paid version of Resolve for both system, and a dedicated server running PostgreSQL. I used to use the QNAP for this, but now Blackmagic updated the PostgreSQL requirement to 9.5, and the last version of QNAP is 9.3. So it's back to a dedicated Mac mini for the PostgreSQL database server (or any cheap Mac you have lying around for this).


If I connect these 2 (& I mean only 2, no need for more) workstations in an isolated network to the QNAP NAS using it's 2 separate 10GbE ports can it act as a "LAN controller" or even better a "SAN server" without the need for extra hardware or software ?

REPLY - you plug each computer into a 10G port if you don't want to purchase a 10G switch. When you purchase a TVS-873e, it comes with no 10G cards, so you purchase the optional QNAP LAN-10G2T-X550 card ($359 US) and plug one computer into each port. If you purchase the TVS-872XT that comes for free with one 10G port, and you don't want to purchase a switch, you purchase a QNAP QXG-10G1T ($89) stick that into the QNAP TVS-872XT, and now you have 2 10G ports.
You assign QNAP 10G port # 1 to 192.168.2.3, and make your computer 192.168.2.4
you assign QNAP 10G port # 2 to 192.168.3.3, and make your computer 192.168.3.4
If you say "how come I just can't buy it, plug it in, and it just works automatically" - well, you can't - that's why.


Or would it still need a switch (to avoid LAN static addresses etc)?

REPLY - you need to setup static IP addresses with or without a switch, because you want reliable connection to your QNAP (or any shared storage system). So let's say you get a Lumaforge Jellyfish, which is a great product.
The Jellyfish base model has 2 10G port that have static IP addresses. You still have to assign a static IP to your computers.
If you are asking "isn't there a way for someone who knows nothing about any of this stuff to make it work without either hiring someone, or watching a bunch of YouTube Videos ?" - the answer is NO.


Or would it still need a separate server & SAN software?
REPLY - the QNAP is a server. The software is built in. It's part of the purchase price.

Please let me make this clear. There is a fantasy that you just buy a box, plug in all your computers, and then BAM - you have shared storage. It does not work this way. When you buy a pre fab wonderful system from Lumaforge, Studio Network Solutions, etc. it comes with SUPPORT. Thats what you are paying for. When you buy a QNAP or Synology - there is no setup support. You have to figure it out yourself or you have to hire someone to help you.

If you want my references in Australia, just email me and I will send them to you.

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Glen Carruthers
Re: My NAS goal is to not make Bob Zelin upset
on Feb 2, 2019 at 10:25:11 am

Thanks Bob

Bummer about the QNAP's PostgreSQL.

"There is a fantasy that you just buy a box, plug in all your computers, and then BAM - you have shared storage."
I have no illusions on that score. As with any trade or profession, there are a host of trip-ups and tricks that can only be learned by those with everyday practical experience. Such as yours.

I'll email you.

Glen Carruthers
Wildlife Cameraman
Australia


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Ronny Courtens
Re: My NAS goal is to not make Bob Zelin upset
on Feb 4, 2019 at 11:42:19 am

LumaForge servers run the PostgreSQL database straight off the server, also with the new update. So no external server required for the database. As Bob says, this is part of the support we provide and it is also what differentiates us from QNAP.

- Ronny


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Michael Kofsky
Re: My NAS goal is to not make Bob Zelin upset
on Feb 8, 2019 at 8:48:33 pm

Okay, hope I'm not posting blasphemy here. Bob, I met you at Cinegear last year and you really are the oracle of 10G.

I'm trying to build a similar 2-mac-only setup to run Resolve only for myself and my wife. We've both switched to Resolve for all of post. (We only gave it a shot after Bob suggested we try it--thank you!).

Any experience with the Synology 1817? (Standard version, not the plus) It INCLUDES 2x10G ports, for a very low price. Is this too good to be true? Will I be stuck in 450MB/s crappy 10G land? Or worse?

There's a video on YT of how to put PostregSQL for Resolve 15 on the Synology directly. I'm willing to tinker and troubleshoot myself until we grow a bit more. But, Bob, if you put the hex on this Synology idea, I'll do the QNAP-873e or maybe spring for the 872XT if the speed is that much better.

I'm on a 12-core cheesegrater which still runs better than most iMacs. She's on a MBP with TB2. My idea would be to use a Sonnett solo 10G for me, and the Akito Dock Pro for her using TB2>TB3 adapter. Akito says this will work. (it's not bus powered) Both appear to be aquantia chips.

NewEgg's got a solid deal on Seagate 12TB Exos drives, theyre now the same price as IronWold. Any preference?


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Bob Zelin
Re: My NAS goal is to not make Bob Zelin upset
on Feb 10, 2019 at 1:41:06 am

Okay, hope I'm not posting blasphemy here. Bob, I met you at Cinegear last year and you really are the oracle of 10G.

REPLY - oh yes, you are, because I can already see - you have only one priority. "What is the ABSOLUTE CHEAPEST THING that I can get". That's all you really care about. But you are not alone. That is pretty much all probably 50% of the Creative Cow (and other forum users) care about. "Isn't there something cheaper".


I'm trying to build a similar 2-mac-only setup to run Resolve only for myself and my wife. We've both switched to Resolve for all of post. (We only gave it a shot after Bob suggested we try it--thank you!).

Any experience with the Synology 1817? (Standard version, not the plus) It INCLUDES 2x10G ports, for a very low price. Is this too good to be true? Will I be stuck in 450MB/s crappy 10G land? Or worse?

REPLY - I know this, because I have been thru this already. You are getting a "great price" because the Synology 1817 uses the incredibly horrible Annapurna CPU processor. It runs painfully slow. AND you think you are getting a deal because it comes with two SLOW 10G ports ("but aren't all 10G ports exactly the same" ) - simple answer NO.
The Synology 1817 is almost identical to the incredibly useless QNAP TS-831X also with dual 10G ports and the Annapurna CPU. And I see on the QNAP forums people crying and complaining about how horrible the performance is. AND to make matters worse - I OWN A QNAP TS-831X, and let me tell you, it's the worst product QNAP makes - right up there with the Synology 1817.
The Synology 1817 + has an OPTIONAL 10G card ("oh no - I have to spend more money") - and it comes with the Intel ATOM CPU, which is not great, but its night and day better than the Annapurna CPU processor. What does all of this mean - it means that the cheap boxes will run SLOW.



There's a video on YT of how to put PostregSQL for Resolve 15 on the Synology directly. I'm willing to tinker and troubleshoot myself until we grow a bit more. But, Bob, if you put the hex on this Synology idea, I'll do the QNAP-873e or maybe spring for the 872XT if the speed is that much better.

REPLY - setting up a PostgreSQL on a QNAP or a Synology is not for the weak of heart. That's why Blackmagic recommends a simple Mac Mini (and most people screw this up as well). But yes, I set up PostgreSQL database servers for Resolve on these all the time, and it works. Remember - you have to have the correct version of PostgreSQL to get Resolve 15.2 to work !
The QNAP TVS-873e also does not come with a 10G card - this is an option. If you want a dual port card, it's the LAN-10G2T-X550. If you want a single port 10G card, it's the QXG-10G1T, and then you get a little switch, which is dirt cheap now on the B&H Site. I think the QSW-1208-8C is about $450 now.
As far as performance, the Synology 1817+ with 10G will perform pretty much like the TVS-873e with the 10G card. Both are "ok" but not great.
The TVS-872XT is a new product. It's $1899 with one 10G port (so you buy the little switch, or put a 10G card inside the QNAP for another port) and it DRAMATICALLY outperforms the QNAP TVS-873e, or Synology 1817+.



I'm on a 12-core cheesegrater which still runs better than most iMacs. She's on a MBP with TB2. My idea would be to use a Sonnett solo 10G for me, and the Akito Dock Pro for her using TB2>TB3 adapter. Akito says this will work. (it's not bus powered) Both appear to be aquantia chips.

REPLY -
None of these adaptors will work unless you are using macOS 10.13.3 or later. If you put the $89 Sonnet card inside a 12 core Mac Pro Cheesegrater, and it's running macOS 10.12.6 or even 10.13 - it will not recognize the Aquantia AQC-107, and there is nowhere to download the driver. It's build into macOS 10.13.3 - 10.14.3. If you can't figure out how to get your Mac Pro Cheesegrater to update to a new OS, get the Sonnet Presto 10Gbase-T which is about $300.
As for the TB2 Mac Book Pro - same rules. You must be running macOS 10.13.3 or later, because of the Aquantia 10G chip. The "right" thing to do for a TB2 Mac Book Pro is to purchase a Sonnet Twin 10G or Promise SanLink2. Will the Akitio TB3 dock with a T2 to T3 adaptor work ? I have no idea. I can tell you this. Many T3 products like the Sonnet Solo 10G (which is $179) are BUSS POWERED and draw 60 watts. If there is no external power supply for the Akitio Dock Pro, the thunderbolt 2 port is NEVER EVER going to power the Akitio T3 dock.



NewEgg's got a solid deal on Seagate 12TB Exos drives, theyre now the same price as IronWold. Any preference?

REPLY - I have no idea. I use Seagate Ironwolf Pro 12 TB drives, which are $379.

SO - how do we end this story ?

QNAP TVS-872XT - $1899
QNAP LAN-10G2T-X550 card, OR a better investment - the QNAP QSW-1208-8C switch. ($589 - the price went back up).
eight Seagate 12 TB Ironwolf drives (buy 9 - you need a spare) - $379 each
Sonnet Presto 10GbaseT card for your old Mac Pro - $276
Sonnet Twin 10G for the Thunderbolt 2 MacBook Pro - $180

total price for hardware - $6355 for 72TB after RAID 6, and this includes a spare drive.
You can get 10TB drives (60 TB after RAID 6) and these are $299 each, so your price will drop by $711
to $5644 total

And when you say OMG THAT IS SO EXPENSIVE - look at the price of a Promise Pegasus or G-Tech G Speed Shuttle XL (and of course, these are for single user - not shared storage, and no PostgreSQL database).

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Michael Tiemann
Re: My NAS goal is to not make Bob Zelin upset
on Feb 11, 2019 at 1:47:15 pm

One small note: the QNAP and the OS absorbs quite a bit of storage from the raw disks to make its RAID volumes. With 8x 12TB disks you'd think you get a 72TB RAID6, but after formatting and allocation, it's just shy of 65TB. I all it 64TB because I like round numbers. That doesn't change anything Bob says about the HW, but it might change your $/TB equations as you look at piles of unmanaged drives vs. A tidy NAS RAID.

Manifold Recording
Pittsboro, NC
https://manifoldrecording.com/


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Alex Gardiner
Re: My NAS goal is to not make Bob Zelin upset
on Feb 16, 2019 at 10:25:54 am

Could it be that the QNAP reports space in TiB?

Just a thought for the weekend.

72TB is pretty much 65TiB :-)

alex@indiestor.com


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