APPLE FINAL CUT PRO: Apple Final Cut Pro X FCPX Debates FCP Legacy FCP Tutorials

State of the NLE panel

COW Forums : Apple Final Cut Pro X Debates

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Oliver Peters
State of the NLE panel
on Jul 14, 2017 at 1:11:37 pm

Finally posted from NAB.







- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

Simon Ubsdell
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 14, 2017 at 7:32:21 pm

Nice job, Bill and Oliver!

A very good and well balanced discussion.

(The other two guys aren't bad either but we won't talk about them.)

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 14, 2017 at 8:52:39 pm

Thanks. And no blood was spilled ☺

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index


Claude Lyneis
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 14, 2017 at 11:06:52 pm

Great discussion in the spirit of tolerance for different NLE's. Of course too much tolerance and FCPX the debate forum would whither away and it is often fun to read, so that would be "SAD".


Return to posts index

Scott Thomas
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 20, 2017 at 5:13:18 am

I'm curious... was there a similar religious war in the era of linear computer editing. In my small market I've used CMX, Grass Valley and Sony. I don't remember anyone turning up their nose at one or the other, just those that refused to learn how to do a match-frame edit or properly set up GPIs and machine control. I know with video engineers, you were either an RCA guy or a Ampex guy. Probably wasn't the first holy war though.


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 20, 2017 at 12:19:12 pm
Last Edited By Oliver Peters on Jul 20, 2017 at 12:19:41 pm

[Scott Thomas] "I'm curious... was there a similar religious war in the era of linear computer editing"

I think so. Generally Sony was the odd one out, because the keystroke order was inherently opposite from CMX and GVG. Ironically, the distribution of market leaders in pro use wasn't all that different than now. Then - CMX, GVG, Sony, Paltex, Axial. Now - Avid, Adobe, Apple, GVG/Edius, Resolve. One big boy in the network/Hollywood circles and then a number of others with strong showings in other pockets.

I suppose it's human nature to argue about your tools - Ford vs Chevy, Nikon vs Canon, or what your stone ax was made of ☺

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index


Don Walker
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 20, 2017 at 4:39:57 pm

I don' remember there being much of debate among editors. Of course there really wasn't very much opportunities to debate, like there is today. In the Atlanta market, which is where I was in the late 80's, early 90's, it seemed to be vastly CMX and GVG, with the big exceptions being Crawford Communications, which was a big Ampex ACE house, and VTA (Video Tape Associates) with own home made editing system. Peachtree Post, one of the other big facilities, had at one time, bays with CMX, Sony and Axial, with Sony, GVG and Abekas switchers. A good freelancer knew how to run them all.

don walker
texarkana, texas

John 3:16


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 20, 2017 at 4:53:45 pm

[Don Walker] "Of course there really wasn't very much opportunities to debate, like there is today."

I think we have the internet to thank for a lot of that. I recall a number of debates on the old Compuserve forums, especially with the late Bob Turner. Circa late 80s.

[Don Walker] "and VTA (Video Tape Associates) with own home made editing system"

And as an aside, for those who don't know - VTA gave us the original DaVinci - software, as well as custom hardware.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

andy patterson
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 20, 2017 at 12:47:28 am

State OF The NLE?

It seemed as though someone wanted to highlight a certain software program made by Apple. To be honest I expected that. It seemed like the other people wanted to let everyone know that all the NLE can get the job done.

Saying Avid is like a printing press while Premiere is like a color printer and last but not least FCPX is like wed design sounded weird an impractical. Avid might be like the printing press and FCPX and Premiere Pro like color printers but Adobe's Creative Cloud would be more like web design. In fact the CC is a full multimedia solution that FCPX can't touch. The web design analogy for FCPX was a bit weird and impractical since Adobe's CC can actually do web design and FCPX is still just a NLE. Don't give Apple more credit than it deserves with a bad analogy.


Return to posts index


Michael Gissing
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 20, 2017 at 1:52:19 am

A good discussion. Thanks.


Return to posts index

Aindreas Gallagher
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 22, 2017 at 12:32:53 am

Good vid,

I think it was great seeing Bill at his emotional best, proudly invested in the idea that FCPX is "webpage" around the ten minute mark.
Watching Michael Kammes reflexively blink at the 11.29" point felt an excellent back and forth. I will make a gif of that.

26" When Bill re-litigated the 2011 launch of FCPX I could feel heads nodding.

27" Bill got emotional there. I'm not sure why we never got FCPX either. Why amn't I cutting on X?

33" Oliver fails to mention the mordor quicksand that is PPro audio channel philosophy. Did everyone at home remember to re-wire their stereo tune as l-r pan mono?

38" Bill admits X is a world unto its own. Bill has walked into that valley. Bill is playing that piano.

39" Scott Simmons then presents the notion of musical skill and basic competency. Rumour is that things should not always be in sync.
It's an amoral difficult world.

40" Kammes sounds like an adult. Scatter.

On balance, Oliver Peters is realistically the only sane person there. Good vid.

https://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos
producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 22, 2017 at 12:44:39 am

☺

Welcome back - or what this just a drive-by post?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index


Aindreas Gallagher
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 27, 2017 at 8:58:50 pm

Drive by potshot only Oliver. It would appear Davis will forever on some level require it. You need to keep a certain man down.

https://vimeo.com/user1590967
producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


Return to posts index

Scott Thomas
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 22, 2017 at 3:55:25 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Bill has walked into that valley. Bill is playing that piano."

Why do I get the impression that this line is from an Infocom text adventure game I haven't played yet.


Return to posts index

Winston A. Cely
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 24, 2017 at 9:46:02 pm

I enjoyed the video....

I moved from cutting infomercials to teaching digital filmmaking in high school to 10th, 11th, and 12th graders. It's fantastic (most of the time) and we use FCPX. In fact, I'm getting ready to get my Apple Certified Instructor credentials next week (if I pass the test obviously) and we hope to become the first Apple testing center in SC, with the eventual aim to churn out certified FCPX editors. I can feel the eyes roll from some of you, but I think FCPX, or at least it's style of editing is the future. It's the most accessible and speaks to these rug rats (I still love 'em) graduating right now. And that's one thing that I heard in the video is that it is such an easily accessible editing platform that there are so many kids that already use it or something similar.

Yeah, there is infrastructure already there in Hollywood, but those infrastructures will eventually become outdated. Whether by design, by inactivity, by natural extinction (best way to say people die?) or some combination thereof. Eventually, there will be a cost benefit to change to whatever the best option is in the future. I don't know if that will actually be FCPX, but it'll be something.

As for my students, I have far too much content to cover to constantly be teaching new software. FCPX is so easy for these students I can spend more time teaching them the important stuff, you know, like story telling or what happens when you hit that red button on the camera.

That being said, I ALWAYS emphasize that they must learn other applications, and most likely will learn other tools in college, tech school, or on their own, especially AVID if they want to break into Hollywood by conventional means.

Winston A. Cely
Editor/Owner | Della St. Media, LLC

17" MacBook Pro | 2.3 GHz Intel Core i7
4 GB RAM | Final Cut Studio 3 | FCPX | Motion 5 | Compressor 4

"If you can talk brilliantly enough about a subject, you can create the consoling illusion it has been mastered." - Stanley Kubrick


Return to posts index


Neil Goodman
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 24, 2017 at 10:18:13 pm

[Winston A. Cely] "I can feel the eyes roll from some of you, but I think FCPX, or at least it's style of editing is the future."

[Winston A. Cely] "That being said, I ALWAYS emphasize that they must learn other applications, and most likely will learn other tools in college, tech school, or on their own, especially AVID if they want to break into Hollywood by conventional means.



I think it's great you're telling them about other avenues other than what you're teaching them.

If a student wants to get into features and high end tuff in major markets it would be a disservice to them if they didn't know how to use Avid. FCPX may or may not be the future of editorial but in the present it is most certainly not for the majority of people. I think it's worth learning for sure at this point but around these parts it's making close to zero inroads.

I didn't know ONE student when I went to film school that DIDNT want to work in features. It was a different time than today, even TV was largely looked down upon but I still can't picture kids in school who want to work in Editing doing all this training because it's their dream to do travelogue videos or snapchat stories for an up and coming tech firm. (not insinuating thats all X is capable of, just thats the type of work I see openings for here in LA)


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 25, 2017 at 1:19:48 am

[Neil Goodman] "If a student wants to get into features and high end tuff in major markets it would be a disservice to them if they didn't know how to use Avid."

I would also offer, that by the time these students are in a position to decide on NLEs, FCPX will have run its course and may well be gone or replaced by FCPse ("something else").

Also, the idea that you can just wait for the current "old guard" to die off and studios will move away from Avid is also a misconception. There are plenty of up-and-comers and assistants in the 25-50 age group that are firmly entrenched in the Avid world. It may well change to something else, but not because current top-of-their-game film editors are retiring.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

andy patterson
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 25, 2017 at 1:29:34 am

[Oliver Peters] "Also, the idea that you can just wait for the current "old guard" to die off and studios will move away from Avid is also a misconception. There are plenty of up-and-comers and assistants in the 25-50 age group that are firmly entrenched in the Avid world."

Keep in mind some people actually like editing on an Avid MC. Also Avid MC, Adobe Premiere Pro, DR and all the other NLE will get better.


Return to posts index

Winston A. Cely
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 25, 2017 at 9:50:00 am

I should have been more specific with the dying off part.... We have a long time before anything set in place now is replaced or in serious danger of being replaced at the level of business wide in Hollywood. I've yet to read anything that would suggest Avid is on its way out in that one narrow market, so I never suggest to my students to wait that out! You're absolutely right. However, if history informs us of anything, it's that older ways of doing things get replaced once enough money can be saved by making that change.

Of the students I teach, only about half have any serious interest in getting into Hollywood. Others are just interested in a class that looks fun, or want to get into TV journalism, or want to act as opposed to being involved in post. Those students who want to be in the business are inundated with independent filmmakers making a living doing what they love without being a "part of the system." That's fine for them, but for those others that do want to go to LA I point towards schools known for filmmaking where Avid and other software is taught. I try to always put their best interest ahead of my personal opinions. 👍

Winston A. Cely
Editor/Owner | Della St. Media, LLC

17" MacBook Pro | 2.3 GHz Intel Core i7
4 GB RAM | Final Cut Studio 3 | FCPX | Motion 5 | Compressor 4

"If you can talk brilliantly enough about a subject, you can create the consoling illusion it has been mastered." - Stanley Kubrick


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 25, 2017 at 12:11:53 pm

[Winston A. Cely] "Others are just interested in a class that looks fun, or want to get into TV journalism, or want to act as opposed to being involved in post."

With that in mind, FCPX is perfect. However, Resolve might also be something to look at.

Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

Tony West
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 25, 2017 at 12:04:59 pm

[Neil Goodman] " I still can't picture kids in school who want to work in Editing doing all this training because it's their dream to do travelogue videos or snapchat stories"

I don't either. What I hear them say, is they want to make their OWN independent films.


Return to posts index

Neil Goodman
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 26, 2017 at 12:25:41 am

[Tony West] "[Neil Goodman] " I still can't picture kids in school who want to work in Editing doing all this training because it's their dream to do travelogue videos or snapchat stories"

I don't either. What I hear them say, is they want to make their OWN independent films."


For sure, but eventually they realize they need $ to fund those films ☺


Return to posts index

Tony West
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 26, 2017 at 5:46:47 am

[Neil Goodman] "but eventually they realize they need $ to fund those films ☺"

They do indeed Neil, but there are some really cool things happening out there.

They four wall and cut deals with small theaters. They use social media to drive free attention to their films and sell with Brown Paper Tickets or something like it.

I have seen it in KC, Indiana and Augusta.

I wasn't aware of any of it until I started screening and speaking with owners.

I'm fascinated by it.


Return to posts index

Scott Witthaus
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 25, 2017 at 12:17:38 am

[Winston A. Cely] "FCPX is so easy for these students I can spend more time teaching them the important stuff, you know, like story telling or what happens when you hit that red button on the camera.
"


Bingo! Give this man a prize. My thoughts exactly. I used to teach FCP Legacy and I can just tell you from real world observation that folks new to editing pick up FCPX faster than anything. These are 24 year old grad students. I let them know there are other apps out there for cutting, but it's up to them to pick them up. I teach storytelling.

On the other end of that spectrum, I was hired by an older ad agency "legend" this past week to come up to the Philadelphia area and teach him how to do basic cutting. He is putting together a series of short bio-docs on advertising icons and wants to be able to cut together the interviews, simply as a story, not the finished cut (He has post houses in NYC and LA to do that for him. In the past he was doing paper edits.). Within a few hours he was cutting away, doing basic stuff and having a f**king blast. Now, I also made him buy Ripple Core Training to learn more, but there is something Apple did in the design of FCPX that makes it easy for new folks to do this stuff. And really, why shouldn't be easy?

Scott Witthaus
Owner, 1708 Inc./Editorial
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


Return to posts index

andy patterson
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 25, 2017 at 1:18:22 am

[Scott Witthaus] "On the other end of that spectrum, I was hired by an older ad agency "legend" this past week to come up to the Philadelphia area and teach him how to do basic cutting."

I was able to do basic editing in FCPX right form the start. The same could be said of Avid, Edius, Liquid and Premiere. It is odd that someone would need help using FCPX.


[Scott Witthaus] "Within a few hours he was cutting away, doing basic stuff and having a f**king blast. Now, I also made him buy Ripple Core Training to learn more, but there is something Apple did in the design of FCPX that makes it easy for new folks to do this stuff."

Didn't you have to teach him. Can't anyone teach someone how to use Avid or Premiere Pro?

[Scott Witthaus] "there is something Apple did in the design of FCPX that makes it easy for new folks to do this stuff. And really, why shouldn't be easy?"

Are you saying DR and Premiere Pro are hard to use? Can I ask what other programs you have purchased for personal use with your own money?


Return to posts index

Bill Davis
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 25, 2017 at 5:43:51 pm



Sorry I was out of town and didn't see this thread until this morning. So couldn't play.
Nice to see that I'm at still relevant enough to generate discussion in my absence! By way of thanks, here's an iPhone CU snap of the life size Luke Skywalker Lego figure from ComiCon. Enjoy. 😊

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


Return to posts index

Scott Witthaus
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 25, 2017 at 9:46:17 pm

[andy patterson] "I was able to do basic editing in FCPX right form the start."

have you ever taught NLE so you can compare? I

[andy patterson] "Didn't you have to teach him. Can't anyone teach someone how to use Avid or Premiere Pro?
"


I can TEACH anyone how to edit on any NLE. My point was the LEARNING seemed to come faster/easier with less problems on X. That's my real-world observation.

[andy patterson] "Are you saying DR and Premiere Pro are hard to use?"

No, I am saying from my observation, FCPX is easier to learn (for the new editor).

[andy patterson] "Can I ask what other programs you have purchased for personal use with your own money?"

Why does this matter?

Scott Witthaus
Owner, 1708 Inc./Editorial
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


Return to posts index

andy patterson
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 26, 2017 at 12:13:15 am

[Scott Witthaus] "[andy patterson] "I was able to do basic editing in FCPX right form the start."

have you ever taught NLE so you can compare? I"


We have had this discussion before an the answer is yes. I taught people how to use the Avid/Pinnalce Studio. It was a class for hobbyists.


[Scott Witthaus] "[andy patterson] "Didn't you have to teach him. Can't anyone teach someone how to use Avid or Premiere Pro?
"

I can TEACH anyone how to edit on any NLE. My point was the LEARNING seemed to come faster/easier with less problems on X. That's my real-world observation."


If you have a love for Apple and resentment for Avid and Premiere that might be a key factor. I am not saying that is the case.

[Scott Witthaus] "[andy patterson] "Are you saying DR and Premiere Pro are hard to use?"

No, I am saying from my observation, FCPX is easier to learn (for the new editor)."


I think there would be Premiere Pro users that could say the same about Premiere Pro. I myself would not say Premiere Pro is easier or harder than Edius, FCPX, DR etc. I have never had a problem doing basic editng with any software based NLE.

[Scott Witthaus] "[andy patterson] "Can I ask what other programs you have purchased for personal use with your own money?"

Why does this matter?"


It matters a lot. If the only NLE software you have purchased was made by Apple it means not matter what Apple makes (good or bad) you will use it and champion it. People that have purchased 3-4 different NLE have no brand loyalty and can have more unbiased opinion.


Return to posts index

Scott Witthaus
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 26, 2017 at 12:21:30 pm

[andy patterson] " People that have purchased 3-4 different NLE have no brand loyalty and can have more unbiased opinion."

This is absolute crap. So anyone that does not pay for an NLE, their opinions are to be ignored? Or we automatically assume they are biased? So the folks here who work at facilities where the NLE is bought for them have no valid opinions? How about the free version of Resolve? Those of us with that have no valid opinions at all? Not sure how much experience you have or how long you have been in the business, but $299 for a piece of software is NOTHING in comparison to what we used to pay for NLE software. Let's not get started in the cost of a linear bay. To say that $300 bucks (a few hours of billable time) will buy people's loyalty is ludicrous.

[andy patterson] "I taught people how to use the Avid/Pinnalce Studio"

How long ago was that?

[andy patterson] "I think there would be Premiere Pro users that could say the same about Premiere Pro. I myself would not say Premiere Pro is easier or harder than Edius, FCPX, DR etc. I have never had a problem doing basic editng with any software based NLE. "

I base my statements on real-world observation while crossing over from one software to another.

[andy patterson] "If you have a love for Apple and resentment for Avid and Premiere that might be a key factor. I am not saying that is the case.
"


But you just said it. I have no resentment for Avid or Premiere. I did a lot of work and made really good money on Avid projects in the past. It's just not a player any longer in my area. Premiere does not suit my professional needs as well as other programs. Simply my preferences.

Scott Witthaus
Owner, 1708 Inc./Editorial
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


Return to posts index

andy patterson
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 27, 2017 at 6:25:52 am

[Scott Witthaus] "[andy patterson] " People that have purchased 3-4 different NLE have no brand loyalty and can have more unbiased opinion."

This is absolute crap. So anyone that does not pay for an NLE, their opinions are to be ignored?"


From what I have seen in these forums I would say yes because they are on the clock and don't really get to grasp all the features and nuances of the software. When I see people say I use FCPX because it kicks booty but I also have to use Premiere Pro at work I don't take the info all that serious. When I see a FCPX loyalist compare FCPX to Premiere Pro I always see them put FCPX in the best possible light while trying to make Premiere Pro seem much harder than it actually is to use. I feel like I am watching a 3 year old play with crayons. If you spend your own money on software you are probably going to try to make it work well.

[Scott Witthaus] " So the folks here who work at facilities where the NLE is bought for them have no valid opinions?"

Some yes and some no because of my previous comment. Also some people may have Premiere Pro at their work facility but it does not mean they are proficient with Premiere Pro. I also think some people might not be 100% honest about how well they know Premiere Pro, Avid DR etc.

[Scott Witthaus] "Not sure how much experience you have or how long you have been in the business, but $299 for a piece of software is NOTHING in comparison to what we used to pay for NLE software."

Money is not the issues. Having said that I am hip to the Matrox Digisuite, Fast Red, Purple Silver, Media 100 etc. Having said that I edited on a Trinity Play, Avid and DPS system back in 1996-2004. I used the Avid when working for the City OF Detroit's Media Center but I did teach the Water Department how to use their Trinity Play system and I did edit on the Cable Commission DPS system one time but that is irrelevant. If need be I can edit using a switcher and analogue tapes. I can also slice film and do stop motion animation (Our school had an Oxberry and Steenbeck) but once again that is irrelevant but you did ask about my experience. If truth be told I can direct, technical direct, operate CCUs, cameras, audio board, CG etc. As of now I work at an A/V rental house.

[Scott Witthaus] "Let's not get started in the cost of a linear bay. To say that $300 bucks (a few hours of billable time) will buy people's loyalty is ludicrous."

I never said anything about the costs. Learn to comprehend what I actually. I am saying if you lay down the money for any software it means you probably like the product and are going to give it a fair shake as opposed to editing on the NLE at work.


[Scott Witthaus] "[andy patterson] "I taught people how to use the Avid/Pinnalce Studio"

How long ago was that?"


The year is irrelevant but I think it was 2002-2003. I taught the Water Department how to use their Trinity Play in 2001 and taught the Cable Commission how to do some cool things on the DPS system in 2001. I fogot about those days.



[Scott Witthaus] "[andy patterson] "If you have a love for Apple and resentment for Avid and Premiere that might be a key factor. I am not saying that is the case.
"

But you just said it. I have no resentment for Avid or Premiere. I did a lot of work and made really good money on Avid projects in the past. It's just not a player any longer in my area. Premiere does not suit my professional needs as well as other programs. Simply my preferences."


For those that have only purchased FCP and FCPX it lets me know they have brand loyalty. They are going to use Apple products no matter what. They are not interested in what the competition has to offer. I am always interested in the competition.

All I can say is I liked our Avid. I liked the Water Departments Trinity Play System and the Cable Commissions DPS system (they also had Avid's and a playback gear that would rival a commercial station) I am not saying I think Premiere Pro is better than FCPX but I think perhaps you would agree that if you taught your class how to edit using Premiere Pro and I taught your class how to edit using Premiere Pro it would probably be a very different experience for the students. That is kind of my point. If truth be told I would probably prefer to teach DR if I were a teacher because it is free and works on both Mac and PC. Also DR 14 was a big upgrade.


Return to posts index

Tony West
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 26, 2017 at 1:21:34 pm

[andy patterson] "It is odd that someone would need help using FCPX. "

Shouldn't you have written, "it's odd that someone would need help using any NLE

Since your point is that they are all equally easy. Your statement implies that X is easier which is the opposite of the point you were trying to make.

But then again I guess that would have setup this contradiction..........."I taught people how to use the Avid/Pinnalce Studio." You shouldn't have been teaching them that, because you said they shouldn't need help. Right?


Return to posts index

andy patterson
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 27, 2017 at 5:03:29 am

[Tony West] "[andy patterson] "It is odd that someone would need help using FCPX. "

Shouldn't you have written, "it's odd that someone would need help using any NLE

Since your point is that they are all equally easy. Your statement implies that X is easier which is the opposite of the point you were trying to make."


Keep in mind I don't really see Premiere or Avid users stating their software is much easier to use than FCPX. I think you would agree we have seen many FCPX users say FCPX is way easier than all the other old antiquated NLE. That is why I found it odd that someone need to be taught how to use a super easy NLE that I was lead to believe everyone just picks up super easy. It sounded like a contradiction to me.


[Tony West] "But then again I guess that would have setup this contradiction..........."I taught people how to use the Avid/Pinnalce Studio." You shouldn't have been teaching them that, because you said they shouldn't need help. Right?"

Where did I make contradiction? Also I don't believe I said anything close to what you posted above. If you could post a link to where I stated Pinnacle Studio is so easy no one would ever need help learning I would appreciate it. I do think Pinnacle Studio is easier to use than Premiere Pro for home hobbyists. I myself can do basic editing on any NLE but it takes time to learn all the quirks and features of each NLE.


Return to posts index

Tony West
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 27, 2017 at 1:07:11 pm

[andy patterson] "we have seen many FCPX users say FCPX is way easier than all the other old antiquated NLE."

Yeah, I would make the argument that for example clicking on that "noise removal" button in X is easier than completely doing it yourself in 7 do you disagree?

[andy patterson] "That is why I found it odd that someone need to be taught how to use a super easy NLE that I was lead to believe everyone just picks up super easy."

They would still need to be shown where that button is. Or that there is one.

Scott teaches people X for a living so he is speaking from experience. When you teach people X are you finding that they are picking it up fast? Or are you speculating what you think might happen?



[andy patterson] "I do think Pinnacle Studio is easier to use than Premiere Pro for home hobbyists"
Why?


Return to posts index

Scott Witthaus
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 27, 2017 at 2:18:24 pm

[Tony West] "Scott teaches people X for a living so he is speaking from experience. "

The idea of "teaching X" is to get the students the basic ideas and up and running quickly. This is where I see the learning uptake so much quicker than FCP7. So many fewer questions and problems. To scaffold onto that basic learning, they have the Lynda.com FCPX Essentials class as a graded assignment that is to be completed within the first three weeks of the semester. This way, each student should be at a base level of knowledge.

[Tony West] "When you teach people X are you finding that they are picking it up fast?"

I don't think Andy has said he teaches X, only has recently begun to play with it.

Scott Witthaus
Owner, 1708 Inc./Editorial
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


Return to posts index

andy patterson
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 28, 2017 at 12:36:00 am

[Scott Witthaus] "[Tony West] "When you teach people X are you finding that they are picking it up fast?"

I don't think Andy has said he teaches X, only has recently begun to play with it."


Not recently. I have been using FCPX from day one but not as an editor. I have used my friends system many times to test out FCPX. Having said that I have moved out of state and no longer have access to my friends system. I have recently purchased a Mac Mini but I still have not had time to download FCPX. I will buy FCPX as soon as I get some free time.


Return to posts index

andy patterson
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 28, 2017 at 12:28:18 am

[Tony West] "andy patterson] "we have seen many FCPX users say FCPX is way easier than all the other old antiquated NLE."

Yeah, I would make the argument that for example clicking on that "noise removal" button in X is easier than completely doing it yourself in 7 do you disagree?"


Would you disagree Premiere Pro 6.0 is better than Premiere Pro 1.0? I would hope FCPX is better than FCP 7. Premiere Pro 6.0 is much better than Premiere Pro 1.0 but that does not mean Premiere Pro 6.0 is better than FCPX. Are the marker options in FCPX better and easier to use than the marker options DR? Is the key-framing of FCPX easier and better than Premiere Pro CC. Those are the kind of questions you should be asking.


[Tony West] "Scott teaches people X for a living so he is speaking from experience. When you teach people X are you finding that they are picking it up fast? Or are you speculating what you think might happen?"

I never stated I teach FCPX. I did state that if I taught Premiere Pro to Scott's students and Scott taught Premiere Pro to his students the teaching experience for the students would probably be very different. Do you agree with my statement? If so why?


Return to posts index

Tony West
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 28, 2017 at 12:34:01 pm

[andy patterson] "Those are the kind of questions you should be asking. "

No they are not.

Your point was that X wasn't easier to for people to learn than other NLE's. But you haven't taught anybody X to even compare like others have.

My point is that you are speculating vs people who have actually done it.

[andy patterson] "I never stated I teach FCPX"
I know. That's my point. You don't have any experience in what you are talking about.


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 28, 2017 at 1:27:35 pm

[Tony West] "You don't have any experience in what you are talking about."

Speaking as someone who does have experience teaching students various NLEs, I would have to say that it isn't cut and dried. The last group of film students I taught was divided into two segments, so I opted to teach X to one group and Premiere Pro to the other. This was a three week course. At the end, I would say that it was roughly equal as to who "got it" and who didn't. I think some people are simply predisposed to think in a way that jives better with either FCPX or a more traditional track-based NLE.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

Scott Witthaus
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 28, 2017 at 5:12:30 pm

[Oliver Peters] " At the end, I would say that it was roughly equal as to who "got it" and who didn't. "

My point was not who knew what at the end of my (15 week) semester, rather how quickly the students picked up FCPX at the start versus when I taught FCP5-7. In other terms, the technology gets out of the way quicker with X and allows them to focus more on sotrytelling.

Scott Witthaus
Owner, 1708 Inc./Editorial
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


Return to posts index

Tony West
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 29, 2017 at 12:52:42 pm

[Oliver Peters] "I think some people are simply predisposed to think in a way that jives better with either FCPX or a more traditional track-based NLE."

I think it has more to do with how effective you are at teaching. Some people may be better at it than others. I know it was that way when I was in HS : )

I saw the same results as Scott so we are likely going about things differently.

Based on your posts on here, your tagline could easily be "FCPX, it's OK, but nothing special"
I on the other hand come in with a great deal of enthusiasm. Talking up the program big time.

A person said to me, "Your enthusiasm for the program makes me excited about learning it"
That was awesome. She pretty much put my theory into words.

They were all levels, but many were talent that had just been doing simple cuts with 7 for their packages and handing off to the editors for anything more advanced. When I left they were tweaking their audio and tossing in motion graphics. Some of them never felt comfortable doing much of that before.

The client told me, "You aren't just grading them, they're grading you." I received high marks : )


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 29, 2017 at 2:31:39 pm

[Tony West] "I on the other hand come in with a great deal of enthusiasm."

I had more enthusiasm for FCPX in the early days. But that's waned after 6 years of using it. I think X is a good tool to have and in some cases the ideal tool for the job. In my view, it's great for 'slapping stuff together quickly', but clunkier when it comes to finessing your final product, compared with the competition.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

Tony West
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 29, 2017 at 4:02:33 pm

[Oliver Peters] "[Tony West] "I on the other hand come in with a great deal of enthusiasm."

I had more enthusiasm for FCPX in the early days. But that's waned after 6 years of using it. "


I like it even more now than I did early on when it didn't have that awesome multi-cam, or the option of Lanes and Workspaces. It's a much better program now.

I agree with many things on people's list of things they want added though. Always room for improvement.


Return to posts index

Scott Witthaus
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 29, 2017 at 4:10:39 pm

[Oliver Peters] "clunkier when it comes to finessing your final product, compared with the competition."

Define "finessing".

Scott Witthaus
Owner, 1708 Inc./Editorial
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 29, 2017 at 5:55:32 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "Define "finessing"."

Fine trimming, audio mixing, color correction, applying/modifying effects. Generally everything you need to do to make it a polished final product.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

Scott Witthaus
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 29, 2017 at 8:47:01 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Fine trimming, audio mixing, color correction, applying/modifying effects. Generally everything you need to do to make it a polished final product."

Interesting, as that is what I find the second best thing about FCPX. You can rough things together extremely quickly and have more time finessing. So, as usual, I guess I disagree! ;-)

Scott Witthaus
Owner, 1708 Inc./Editorial
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


Return to posts index

andy patterson
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 29, 2017 at 7:05:29 pm

[Tony West] "[Oliver Peters] "I think some people are simply predisposed to think in a way that jives better with either FCPX or a more traditional track-based NLE."

I think it has more to do with how effective you are at teaching. Some people may be better at it than others. I know it was that way when I was in HS : )"


I agree.


[Tony West] "Based on your posts on here, your tagline could easily be "FCPX, it's OK, but nothing special"
I on the other hand come in with a great deal of enthusiasm. Talking up the program big time."



Should you be talking up FCPX big time? If you worked for a real estate company three years ago and edit VR tours FCPX might not be the best bet (FCPX might do it now without plugins). When FCPX first launched there was no 3rd party hardware support, multi-cam or closed captioning. There was a trackless paradigm with FCPX but would that always be more useful than 3rd party hardware, multi-cam and closed captioning? Perhaps not for a lot of people. For some VR might be much more important than a trackless paradigm. I have not used FCPX in over a year but at that time I could key-frame much easier in Premiere Pro than FCPX. I know the GUI of FCPX is better than it was two years ago but I found the GUI of FCPX to be very annoying compared to Premiere Pro when I last used it.

When I last used FCPX (things could have changed) the markers were not as robust as what you see in the video below.







Return to posts index

Brian Seegmiller
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 30, 2017 at 5:21:42 am

Everything those markers shown in this video in Davinci can be implemented in FCP X. Marker ranges are just like setting keyword ranges, rejects and or favorites and doing it much faster. The index is great for searching for markers, keywords and more on the timeline.


Return to posts index

andy patterson
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 30, 2017 at 12:25:02 pm

[Brian Seegmiller] "Everything those markers shown in this video in Davinci can be implemented in FCP X. Marker ranges are just like setting keyword ranges, rejects and or favorites and doing it much faster. The index is great for searching for markers, keywords and more on the timeline."

I am well aware or keyword ranges. I admit the markers are kind of being used like keyword ranges in that video but markers can be used in several different ways.

The markers in FCPX seem real quirky in the video below.







Return to posts index

Brian Seegmiller
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 30, 2017 at 6:01:09 pm

I agree, this is just one way to move your markers, which in my opinion, is too much work and not intuitive. The faster way I move markers in FCP X is to right click on the marker and choose "cut" and then move my skimmer where I want it and choose "option+v" and paste the marker. It would be better to just move it by clicking and dragging, but it is not a deal breaker.


Return to posts index

andy patterson
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 30, 2017 at 7:56:27 pm

[Brian Seegmiller] "The faster way I move markers in FCP X is to right click on the marker and choose "cut" and then move my skimmer where I want it and choose "option+v" and paste the marker. It would be better to just move it by clicking and dragging, but it is not a deal breaker."

I here ya. FCPX is a good NLE but as with any NLE improvements could be made. I find it easier to do key-framing in Premiere Pro. Some (not all) FCPX would lead you to believe "every thing" is ten times easier and better in FCPX.


Return to posts index

Tony West
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 31, 2017 at 12:37:01 am

[andy patterson] "Should you be talking up FCPX big time?"

Yeah, it's awesome. If you don't believe in the product you maybe shouldn't be working with people to transition to it. I wouldn't want somebody helping me who didn't believe in the product. People for the most part don't like change. They want to know there is a payoff to make the change worth doing.

[andy patterson] "If you worked for a real estate company three years ago"

ahahahaha I'll stop you right there. I kind of just deal with my REAL LIFE scenarios.

[andy patterson] "markers were not as robust as what you see in the video below"

Brian already took care of this so I won't rehash, but even if he hadn't, you gotta do better than markers to get me to go back to tracks.

I like R14, and if it weren't for X it might be my pick, but I'm not going back : )






Return to posts index

andy patterson
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 31, 2017 at 3:04:28 am

[Tony West] "[andy patterson] "If you worked for a real estate company three years ago"

ahahahaha I'll stop you right there. I kind of just deal with my REAL LIFE scenarios."


And I am saying for some people FCPX might not be the best option. Many people clam FCPX does everything better faster and easier than all the other NLE. I don't see Avid users or DR users making that claim.

[Tony West] "
Brian already took care of this so I won't rehash, but even if he hadn't, you gotta do better than markers to get me to go back to tracks.

I like R14, and if it weren't for X it might be my pick, but I'm not going back : )"


I think you are missing the point. I am not suggesting you give up FCPX and start using DR or Premiere Pro. What I am saying is very simple. If you do VR editing or use closed caption FCPX might not be the best option. If you do a lot of key-framing FCPX might not be the best option. Will DR edit holograms before FCPX? Will it benefit you? That is my point. I say everyone will use what works best for their needs for some it might be FCPX and for others it might be DR.


Return to posts index

andy patterson
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 29, 2017 at 6:40:29 pm

[Tony West] "[andy patterson] "Those are the kind of questions you should be asking. "

No they are not.

Your point was that X wasn't easier to for people to learn than other NLE's. But you haven't taught anybody X to even compare like others have."


I don't doubt if I taught Premiere Pro or even DR at the college level the students would pick it up fairly easy. I have used several NLE so I know what the competition can do and I see similarities and differences. I don't need to use X to know I can teach people how to use a NLE.



[Tony West] "[andy patterson] "I never stated I teach FCPX"
I know. That's my point. You don't have any experience in what you are talking about."


What I am pointing out is there is a lot of hype concerning FCPX. A lot of people claim FCPX is way easier to use than the old school NLE. A lot of those same people claimed Premiere Pro had a antiquated titling system. I don't need to have FCPX (although I have been kicking the tires of it for about six years) to know some things are not as they seem at the Cow. Regardless of FCPX I will have a video soon showing what the old antiquated and cringe worthy GUI of Premiere Pro can actually do. I think you will like it. It should serve as a demo and tutorial. What I am really saying is if people have a misconception of Premiere Pro's GUI they may also have a misconception of how easy to use Premiere Pro can be. Having said that I would not say Premiere Pro is the easiest NLE to learn. I will say I have seen FCPX users complain how hard Premiere Pro is to use and then people that use Premiere Pro can tell them in like two or three sentences how to achieve what they want using Premiere Pro. In other words if you spend 180 hours a month trying to learn FCPX to it's fullest potential and only dabble about 20 hours a month into Premiere Pro to mock it of course FCPX will seem much more impressive and easier to use but you have to take into consideration that you really liked the one NLE over the other from the get go. Some people do have brand loyalty that can lead to a biased evaluation.


Return to posts index

Brian Seegmiller
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 30, 2017 at 6:18:33 pm

I use both PP and FCP X. FCP X is so much easier to use. It really feels like going back in time when using PP. So yea, it fells antiquated.


Return to posts index

Tony West
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 31, 2017 at 12:58:17 am

[andy patterson] "I don't doubt if I taught Premiere Pro or even DR at the college level the students would pick it up fairly easy."

It's not rather they would pick up Pr easy, it's would they pick X up easier.

[andy patterson] "Some people do have brand loyalty that can lead to a biased evaluation."

You're not like that though right? It's those others.

It's just kind of funny to me. When X came out and people looked at the preferences they said it was too slimmed down and simple. It was attacked for being too simplistic. "Toy-Like". Now it's apparently as detailed as any other NLE. Flip Flop.

I look forward to the video.


Return to posts index

andy patterson
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 31, 2017 at 1:57:26 am

[Tony West] "[andy patterson] "I don't doubt if I taught Premiere Pro or even DR at the college level the students would pick it up fairly easy."

It's not rather they would pick up Pr easy, it's would they pick X up easier."


We would have to test it out to know for sure.

[Tony West] "[andy patterson] "Some people do have brand loyalty that can lead to a biased evaluation."

You're not like that though right? It's those others."


Considering I have made more negative comments about Premiere Pro than FCPX I highly doubt you could call me biased. Calling a spade a spade is not being biased. Having said that you are more than welcome to find me making the claim Premiere Pro is the most amazing software ever created and how often do I say Premiere Pro is easier to use the DR, Avid or FCPX? I have never made comments like that.


[Tony West] "It's just kind of funny to me. When X came out and people looked at the preferences they said it was too slimmed down and simple. It was attacked for being too simplistic. "Toy-Like". Now it's apparently as detailed as any other NLE. Flip Flop."

Don't live in the past.

Flip flop? I don't think that is the case.

If you did a simple six camera political talk show for the networks or local cable back in 2011 FCPX might not have been the best bet. FCPX lacked 3rd party hardware support, closed captioning and multi-cam. Back in 2011 FCPX 11 lacked a lot of features but people knew it would get better so there is no flip flopping. BMD's DR has also gotten a lot better. Will it have 70% of the market by 2020? Will those that used DR since 2012 be bragging about using since 2012? I hope not. People who mocked DR as an editing platform in 2012 have no bearing on DR in 2017. Do you see my point? Premiere got badmouthed in the past as well. Having said that if you edit VR videos for clients Premiere Pro might be a better option than FCPX. For the above talk show scenario with no sound effects the features demoed at 17:50 might be of no use. I can see where a trackless paradigm could be useful but then again so can VR and perhaps even holograms one day. I think FCPX is a good program but when it was first released it was not the best option for a lot of workflows. Can you admit that?







Return to posts index

Scott Witthaus
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 31, 2017 at 1:41:33 am

[andy patterson] "I will have a video soon showing what the old antiquated and cringe worthy GUI of Premiere Pro can actually do. I think you will like it. "

Was I mistaken or did you post a video on the Premiere Cow forum calling the CC2017 version of Premiere the "worst NLR ever"?







Part of this thread: https://forums.creativecow.net/thread/3/993352#993387

Or has this opinion changed?

Scott Witthaus
Owner, 1708 Inc./Editorial
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


Return to posts index

andy patterson
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 31, 2017 at 2:43:12 am

[Scott Witthaus] "[andy patterson] "I will have a video soon showing what the old antiquated and cringe worthy GUI of Premiere Pro can actually do. I think you will like it. "

Was I mistaken or did you post a video on the Premiere Cow forum calling the CC2017 version of Premiere the "worst NLR ever"?"


I used hyperbole and I will do it again in this post. Let me know if you can spot it this time. Also I think that video might be focused on track matte bugs not the GUI. Having said that Premiere Pro can be quirky but FCPX crashes.

Just so you know I am using hyperbole at full force below : )

The video below proves FCPX is the worst NLE ever and it also has an antiquated GUI!








Return to posts index

greg janza
Re: State of the NLE panel
on Jul 31, 2017 at 5:05:43 pm

Very entertaining chat. Thanks for posting.

It seems as though this topic almost immediately sinks into quicksand on this forum due to people's fervent beliefs that one NLE is better than another. But with the exception of Bill (no surprise there) the panel made it pretty clear that if you're a professional editor working on a variety of projects the only thing that really matters is the end product. How you get to that end is irrelevant.

We're now in an age of NLE platform agnosticism, with the obvious exception of Apple's FCPX. And down the road that may end up being one of the major roadblocks to FCPX's larger adoption.

I Hate Television. I Hate It As Much As Peanuts. But I Can’t Stop Eating Peanuts.
- Orson Welles


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]