APPLE FINAL CUT PRO: Apple Final Cut Pro X FCPX Debates FCP Legacy FCP Tutorials

Just Business...

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Bill Davis
Just Business...
on Feb 3, 2017 at 5:40:19 pm

I woke up to an in-box was full of comments from friends in the UK about this...
http://www.express.co.uk/life-style/science-technology/762119/Adobe-Creativ...

Then saw this...

http://www.apple.com/us-hed/shop/product/BMGE2Z/A/pro-apps-bundle-for-educa...

Regardless of whether this is all sheer coincidence and the order of how it hit my in-box is linked only to randomness, if you know a student, that Apple Education Bundle Deal is AMAZING.

FWIW.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Tom Sefton
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 3, 2017 at 6:09:01 pm

Stunning deal. Aggressive move by Apple - adobe blaming currency and Brexit as a reason to hike costs for students is a bad idea...!

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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Shane Ross
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 3, 2017 at 6:16:29 pm

And Apple has more money than a lot of countries, so they can afford to give discounts...and really not have people pay at all for any update, ever.

Funny thing, they taught FCX at my daughter's school, in her drama class where they also taught film, but she found it too odd to deal with. I got her Adobe Premiere at the student rate and she loves that. Might be because she learned to edit by watching me after school...

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Scott Witthaus
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 4, 2017 at 12:23:38 pm

[Shane Ross] "I got her Adobe Premiere at the student rate "

Call social services! ;-)

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 3, 2017 at 6:37:01 pm

The Apple bundle is a great deal and once again, Adobe just keeps copying Apple. 😉

Apple raises prices on hardware (Sept, 2016):
"Brexit bites: Apple raises European prices to reflect fall in value of the pound & Euro"
https://9to5mac.com/2016/09/08/apple-uk-price-rises-brexit/

Apple raises prices on software (Jan, 2017):
"Apple increases App Store prices by 25% following Brexit vote"
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jan/17/apple-ios-mac-app-store-...


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Bill Davis
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 3, 2017 at 8:08:06 pm

Well, one could also argue that for most instances where Apple raises a software price for one transaction - Adobe does it for 12 transactions a year - forever.

(Insert your favorite wink 😉 emoji here)

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Brett Sherman
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 4, 2017 at 2:45:50 pm

It's really and apples and oranges comparison.

A small percentage of App Store sales are Apple products. Apple has to pay the software developers on the App Store. It's not exactly fair to require them to take a pay hit because of declining currency value. They may even be contractally obligated to do so. Adobe can choose to raise or not raise prices on it's own software, irregardless of currency changes.

--------------------------
Brett Sherman
One Man Band (If it's video related I'll do it!)
I work for an institution that probably does not want to be associated with my babblings here.


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Claude Lyneis
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 4, 2017 at 5:29:06 pm

Getting FCPX into film school is an uphill battle. The staff at our local film school all went PP after FC7 was abandoned and there is almost revulsion at the idea of X. As an off and on student, who uses FCPX, there it makes joining film projects more challenging. Of course their goal is to help students work in the Bay Area film community and there is little demand for FCPX skills. FCPX works well for me a individual film maker, but then I am not looking for a job.

Still Apple's package should be attractive to some students.


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Scott Witthaus
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 5, 2017 at 12:52:35 am

[Claude Lyneis] " The staff at our local film school all went PP after FC7 was abandoned and there is almost revulsion at the idea of X. "

Faculty needs to do whats best for the visual storytelling, not their own hide in their own bias. I think if the faculty at your school gave each software equal play there might be a difference, but I see too much fear in "new things" in academia. I teach the other way around and sent every student this offer from Apple. I want to give my students the best tools to tell a story and not care what the Coen brothers or anyone else cuts on. And this is something I told our Adobe reps as well; until their products can be better for my students telling visual stories, there is no need for me change how and what I teach. Just my humble opinion, of course.

sw

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Oliver Peters
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 5, 2017 at 1:19:02 am

[Scott Witthaus] "Faculty needs to do whats best for the visual storytelling, not their own hide in their own bias."

No offense meant, but doesn't your post also show your bias for X over Premiere Pro? The faculty might simply want their students to have software skills that are marketable in the outside world. Plus, the school probably already has to teach Photoshop and After Effects, so it's likely there's a Creative Cloud enterprise contract in place.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Scott Witthaus
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 5, 2017 at 1:15:44 pm

[Oliver Peters] "No offense meant, but doesn't your post also show your bias for X over Premiere Pro? "

No offense taken. And my perceived bias is based on my experience with both products and who my students are. I am there to teach my students the craft of visual storytelling. Concept through post. In my mind, X is a superior product for editorial and that is what I teach them. So if that is a bias, then yes, I am biased.

We have the cloud on all the computers and if some want to use Premiere, they can (and PS, AE ,etc), but based on my experience, both in academia (9 years) and post (33 years) X is the better tool for my students. Now, if I were teaching kids that will go out and work in TV news or some other broadcast post gigs, I might, might, teach something different. I think it's the duty of faculty to go outside their comfort zone to see if there are things that will be better for students in the future. X was certainly outside my comfort zone 6 years ago, which is why I kept teaching Legacy for over two years. Now I feel it's the superior product for my students and what they are doing now and going forward. Your mileage and students may vary! ☺

Oh, and trust me, the Adobe reps who come and visit have heard my opinion on this very clearly (not that it matters alot!).

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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andy patterson
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 5, 2017 at 3:00:17 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "[Oliver Peters] "No offense meant, but doesn't your post also show your bias for X over Premiere Pro? "

No offense taken. And my perceived bias is based on my experience with both products and who my students are. I am there to teach my students the craft of visual storytelling. Concept through post. In my mind, X is a superior product for editorial and that is what I teach them. So if that is a bias, then yes, I am biased."


As you stated, in your mind X is superior. Why not teach Avid, Premiere and FCPX and let the students decide which one they like best? Avid, Premiere and FCPX will all get better and it would not hurt to learn all three. Keep in mind FCPX is not cross platform for both Mac and Windows.

Let us suppose Blackmagic Design released a new program for "free" that is exactly like FCPX but with a few more features and it works on both Mac and PC. Would you tell the school to drop FCP X in favor of the new program from Blackmagic Design? Would you insist the school purchase Macs and PCs?


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Scott Witthaus
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 5, 2017 at 3:55:09 pm

[andy patterson] "Why not teach Avid, Premiere and FCPX and let the students decide which one they like best? Avid, Premiere and FCPX will all get better and it would not hurt to learn all three."

I have 15 weeks a semester so I can't take the time to teach all three. We have a university site license for Lynda.com (only took me three years to get the university to agree to get that!) and if they want to use Premier, they can learn it there. Not much need for Media Composer unless they are going into broadcast, which I have not had one go that way yet.

I have all three, used all three and still use two of the three. X, for what I do and teach, is superior. So, in the limited time I have with each class, that's what I teach. No apologies, I just feel this is the best way.

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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andy patterson
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 6, 2017 at 1:17:54 am

[Scott Witthaus] "[andy patterson] "Why not teach Avid, Premiere and FCPX and let the students decide which one they like best? Avid, Premiere and FCPX will all get better and it would not hurt to learn all three."

I have 15 weeks a semester so I can't take the time to teach all three. We have a university site license for Lynda.com (only took me three years to get the university to agree to get that!) and if they want to use Premier, they can learn it there. Not much need for Media Composer unless they are going into broadcast, which I have not had one go that way yet."


You should be able to teach all three unless you are only a part time instructor. In that case you would have do decide if you have the adequate amount of time necessary to fully teach the students properly. At the very least the school should have a trained Premiere Pro and Avid editor. There are some cool things you can do with Premiere and AE that should be taught in class. The students may have questions beyond Lynda.com.

[Scott Witthaus] "I have all three, used all three and still use two of the three. X, for what I do and teach, is superior. So, in the limited time I have with each class, that's what I teach. No apologies, I just feel this is the best way."

Your feelings for FCPX are irrelevant. Premiere, Avid and AE are out there. In fact I know of a TV station in Chicago that uses Edius. Oprah Winfrey's own Harpo productions used to use Edius as well (they still might). I could see only teaching FCPX if FCPX was the only NLE being used in a professionals environment but that is not the case.

Back to my original question. If Blackmagic Design released a new NLE that was free and identical to FCXP with a few more features than FCPX and it worked with OS X and Windows would you tell the school to ditch FCPX for Blackmagic's new NLE? Would you only teach one NLE or would you maybe find time to teach two NLE? If you continue to only teach one would it be FCPX or the Blackmagic Design software? The answer to those questions is what I really want to know.


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Eric Santiago
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 6, 2017 at 2:41:38 am

I've been lucky enough to teach both Premiere and FCPX at an Adult College.

I try to expose both and give each its merits and failures.

In the end the student gets to decide.

Its still 50/50 from my experience.


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andy patterson
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 6, 2017 at 3:44:58 am

[Eric Santiago] "I've been lucky enough to teach both Premiere and FCPX at an Adult College.

I try to expose both and give each its merits and failures.

In the end the student gets to decide.

Its still 50/50 from my experience."


I agree. I would teach them both if given the chance. In the end teachers need to do what is best for the students as apposed to pushing their biases. I am not a fan of Vegas Video but others like it. Same could be said of Hash's Animation Master. I wish Fast's/Pinnacle's/Avid's Liquid edition was still around.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 6, 2017 at 3:50:14 am

I get where Scott is coming from, because he doesn't teach aspiring film and TV students. I would do the same. However, teachers that do have to prepare students to go out into the workplace, do have a responsibility to teach the tools that graduates will encounter.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Brett Sherman
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 6, 2017 at 2:21:30 pm

[andy patterson] "I agree. I would teach them both if given the chance. In the end teachers need to do what is best for the students as apposed to pushing their biases."

I think there is a lack of understanding of education in many of these posts. It's easy to say, "You should teach all three so students are prepared."

But the problem with that is, you are sacrificing a lot of your limited time getting into idiosyncratic details of how different editing systems work instead of teaching the craft of editing. If FCP X allows you to get to the craft quicker, then that's what it should be. There is a lot of thought that has to go into curriculum development. If one of the students really excels with FCP X and decides to make a career of editing, I have no doubt they will easily be able to switch to another editing program as the need arises. They will be richer for having spent more time thinking about the craft of editing.

--------------------------
Brett Sherman
One Man Band (If it's video related I'll do it!)
I work for an institution that probably does not want to be associated with my babblings here.


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Scott Witthaus
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 6, 2017 at 5:42:04 pm

[Brett Sherman] "But the problem with that is, you are sacrificing a lot of your limited time getting into idiosyncratic details of how different editing systems work instead of teaching the craft of editing. If FCP X allows you to get to the craft quicker, then that's what it should be. There is a lot of thought that has to go into curriculum development. If one of the students really excels with FCP X and decides to make a career of editing, I have no doubt they will easily be able to switch to another editing program as the need arises. They will be richer for having spent more time thinking about the craft of editing."

Could not have said it any better.

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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andy patterson
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 6, 2017 at 10:41:17 pm

[Brett Sherman] "But the problem with that is, you are sacrificing a lot of your limited time getting into idiosyncratic details of how different editing systems work instead of teaching the craft of editing. If FCP X allows you to get to the craft quicker, then that's what it should be. There is a lot of thought that has to go into curriculum development. If one of the students really excels with FCP X and decides to make a career of editing, I have no doubt they will easily be able to switch to another editing program as the need arises. They will be richer for having spent more time thinking about the craft of editing."

One thing to consider is FCPX is not cross platform for Mac and PC. Other programs are. I do admit FCPX for $300.00 is a good deal for Apple users but what about everyone else? That is kind of my point.


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andy patterson
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 7, 2017 at 12:09:58 pm

[Brett Sherman] "If FCP X allows you to get to the craft quicker, then that's what it should be."

There are people that use both and would say it is personal choice.

[Brett Sherman] "There is a lot of thought that has to go into curriculum development. If one of the students really excels with FCP X and decides to make a career of editing, I have no doubt they will easily be able to switch to another editing program as the need arises. They will be richer for having spent more time thinking about the craft of editing."

They would be able to switch but they would not be as proficient as someone who trained and knew about the integration of Premiere, AE and Cinema 4D. Same would be true for Avid. Someone who knew all three would be better off. Once again I am not saying the students would have to learn all three but the option should be there. Let me state it this way. I would consider it odd to only see Premiere Pro being taught. That might help clear things up. I am not saying the college is no good or that that they do not have a high percent of people in the workforce. It would also be good to know both Mac and PC platforms. I have seen jobs posted for Premiere and Avid where they want you to know both platforms. I admit it may not be the majority but I would like to think a college education would allow for experience on both platforms.


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Scott Witthaus
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 6, 2017 at 1:45:15 pm

[andy patterson] "You should be able to teach all three unless you are only a part time instructor. "

9 month contract faculty, so yes, full semesters. I design the curriculum. Teaching concept development and story flow and design is more important, so I teach the best, fastest-learned software to support the storytelling aspect.

[andy patterson] "t the very least the school should have a trained Premiere Pro and Avid editor. "

I have made a lot of money on Avid in my career and still use Premiere today, so that "trained editor" is me. And to support what I mentioned above, X is it.

[andy patterson] "Your feelings for FCPX are irrelevant."

Well, no. Since I create the curriculum it is very relevant.

[andy patterson] "Premiere, Avid and AE are out there."

Sigh. See my previous posts. Lynda.com is out there for them.

[andy patterson] "In fact I know of a TV station in Chicago that uses Edius. Oprah Winfrey's own Harpo productions used to use Edius as well (they still might)."

We are not doing 1:15 news packages or long form broadcast. Note my posts above. Would you say that the Edius station is doing it's editors a disservice by using such a niche product?

[andy patterson] "I could see only teaching FCPX if FCPX was the only NLE being used in a professionals environment but that is not the case. "

Note my posts above, please. I am not teaching kids to go out and local news or broadcast.

[andy patterson] "The answer to those questions is what I really want to know."

One more time....I am teaching the craft of visual storytelling not "learn this system(s) so you can get a news gig". At the end of a project, I want a story based on a strong concept, shot and posted properly. They can use iMovie for all I care. It's about the end result and less about what tool they use to cut it. To assist my students to get to that result, I teach X. I have always said that I can teach ANYBODY how to operate a software. Talented storytellers are not that easy to find. I am trying to get technology out of the way of the storytelling process.

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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andy patterson
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 6, 2017 at 11:23:25 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "[andy patterson] "Your feelings for FCPX are irrelevant."

Well, no. Since I create the curriculum it is very relevant."


Your feelings are irrelevant. If your school is not teaching Premiere and Avid the students are not getting the best education. You may not like Avid and Premiere Pro but many do. My second point is not everyone owns a Apple computer.

[Scott Witthaus] "
[andy patterson] "Premiere, Avid and AE are out there."

Sigh. See my previous posts. Lynda.com is out there for them."


Then why teach FCPX? Why not just have them go to Lynda.com for FCPX training? As I stated people may have questions beyond Linda.com. Isn't that why you have a job?

[Scott Witthaus] "[andy patterson] "In fact I know of a TV station in Chicago that uses Edius. Oprah Winfrey's own Harpo productions used to use Edius as well (they still might)."

We are not doing 1:15 news packages or long form broadcast. Note my posts above. Would you say that the Edius station is doing it's editors a disservice by using such a niche product?"


Don't confuse the purpose of a TV station with a school that has a purpose to educate students. The TV station's purpose is to bring the news not educate students.

[Scott Witthaus] "[andy patterson] "I could see only teaching FCPX if FCPX was the only NLE being used in a professionals environment but that is not the case. "

Note my posts above, please. I am not teaching kids to go out and local news or broadcast."


I never stated you were. Do all your students own an Apple computer?

[Scott Witthaus] "[andy patterson] "The answer to those questions is what I really want to know."

One more time....I am teaching the craft of visual storytelling not "learn this system(s) so you can get a news gig". At the end of a project, I want a story based on a strong concept, shot and posted properly. They can use iMovie for all I care. It's about the end result and less about what tool they use to cut it. To assist my students to get to that result, I teach X. I have always said that I can teach ANYBODY how to operate a software. Talented storytellers are not that easy to find. I am trying to get technology out of the way of the storytelling process."


I asked if Blackmagic Design had a free program identical to FCPX that worked on Mac and PC both would you drop FCPX in favor of Blackmagic? You never answered that. You went on to talk about story telling. Couldn't you teach the art of story telling using the Blackmagic Design NLE if it mimicked FCPX 100%?

$300.00 for FCPX is nice but it is not as good as free. Also FCPX is not cross platform.

The fact that you could not respond by saying "if BMD had a NLE that mimicked FCPX for free and worked on Mac and PC I would opt to teach that instead of FCPX. The reason I would opt for BMD over FCPX is the price and it is cross platform. It would be more beneficial to the students".

You gave responses to some things that were statements I made and not actual questions. On the other hand you did not answer the actual question I asked. I find that very odd. Even though you did not answer my question directly I did find out what I wanted to know. So having said that thank you for your response.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 6, 2017 at 11:46:21 pm

[andy patterson] "If your school is not teaching Premiere and Avid the students are not getting the best education. You may not like Avid and Premiere Pro but many do."

There are two distinct ways to look at this: one values theory, one values practice.

Scott falls on the theory side. The actual practice of driving an NLE is immaterial for his approach. The less time he can spend teaching how to use an NLE, the more time he can spend teaching how to craft a story through editorial. That is a very real and valuable skill.

A practical education would concern itself more with the mechanics of editing, and thus necessarily less on crafting a story. Those skills are real and valuable, too, but they are different, and one approach is not necessarily better than another.

Personally, I chose my school because they although they taught both, they generally valued theory over practice. I thought it was more important to learn why to make a cut than how to do it. Perhaps you would prefer the other way, and that's fine -- there are plenty of places to learn that way, too -- but I think Scott's class sounds pretty appealing.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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andy patterson
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 7, 2017 at 2:09:45 am

[Walter Soyka] "Scott falls on the theory side. The actual practice of driving an NLE is immaterial for his approach. The less time he can spend teaching how to use an NLE, the more time he can spend teaching how to craft a story through editorial. That is a very real and valuable skill."

Keep in mind I added a hypothetical to the equation. Why not teach a program that is cross platform and free? If Blackmagic had a NLE that mimicked FCPX 100% why not use that instead? That is the real question I asked. It was never answered. I stated the school should offer the options. Scott would not have to teach them. It would be up to the student to opt take all 3 (FCPX, Avid and Premiere). He stated they can go to Linda.com.

[Walter Soyka] "A practical education would concern itself more with the mechanics of editing, and thus necessarily less on crafting a story. Those skills are real and valuable, too, but they are different, and one approach is not necessarily better than another."

This doesn't really answer my question nor am I arguing with you. You nor Scott have told me anything new. I just wanted Scott to answer my hypothetical question. He did stated he could teach using iMovie. IMovie is Apple only.

[Walter Soyka] "Personally, I chose my school because they although they taught both, they generally valued theory over practice. I thought it was more important to learn why to make a cut than how to do it. Perhaps you would prefer the other way, and that's fine -- there are plenty of places to learn that way, too -- but I think Scott's class sounds pretty appealing."

No argument but this is really just another strawman. I have not once talked about teaching methods or what I prefer. You just stated you like the fact that your school taught both programs and they valued theory over practice. You are helping to prove my point because your school taught both.

All ask you the same question. If BMD had a NLE that mimicked FCP X 100% for free and is was cross platform would it be wise to offer that as an option to the students? If the school could only teach one program and BMD's NLE had 50% of the market and it is free would you say it might be the better option instead of FCPX? Keep in mind all the students could download it to their computer. Would some of you still buy FCPX for $300.00 knowing BMD offered the exact same thing for free? That is what needs to be addressed not teaching methods or what type of education I prefer.

Let me put it to you like this. If FCPX was discontinued today. Would Scott opt for Premiere, Avid, Edius, Resolve or iMovie. That is kind of my point. I think some people are 100% dedicated to Apple products. I am not saying Scott is at this point. I'll say this. I would not mind teaching FCPX on a Mac Pro or iMac. I wouldn't mind teaching iMovie. Would any FCPX users want to teach Premiere Pro on a PC? Would some of you feel as though you can tech the art of editing with an iMac and iMovie but not a PC and Premiere Pro?


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Walter Soyka
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 7, 2017 at 11:01:25 am

[andy patterson] "All ask you the same question. If BMD had a NLE that mimicked FCP X 100% for free and is was cross platform would it be wise to offer that as an option to the students? If the school could only teach one program and BMD's NLE had 50% of the market and it is free would you say it might be the better option instead of FCPX? Keep in mind all the students could download it to their computer. Would some of you still buy FCPX for $300.00 knowing BMD offered the exact same thing for free? That is what needs to be addressed not teaching methods or what type of education I prefer. "

Andy, I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind your hypothetical question, or what you're getting at by asking it.

Is the question about using Apple products at the exclusion of others? My shop uses a mix of software, mainly Adobe, on both Macs and PCs. We use Premiere over FCPX nearly all of the time.

Is the question about the price of software? I think that development costs money, so software should cost money. I hope to be here for a while, and I want the development industry that my business relies on to be healthy so that it can support me. I wonder if Apple and BMD have depressed the value of the tools we use, and what that means for media tool makers in the long term. There needs to be enough margin there to foster real competition.

Would I "buy FCPX for $300.00 knowing BMD offered the exact same thing for free?" In my experience, there are no two major software products in our market that are the exact same thing. I mind my expenses, but I'm also willing to pay for the products I want. That said, I'd actually be really interested to see a an FCPX work-alike on the market. It would mean that someone innovated around a bunch of Apple patents.

Sorry if I misunderstood you before, but I can't see how suggesting that someone take classroom time to teach three NLEs instead of one does not go to the question of what to teach and how to teach it.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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andy patterson
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 7, 2017 at 4:15:42 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Andy, I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind your hypothetical question, or what you're getting at by asking it.

Is the question about using Apple products at the exclusion of others? My shop uses a mix of software, mainly Adobe, on both Macs and PCs. We use Premiere over FCPX nearly all of the time."


I think you read my comments wrong or I worded them wrong. Either way it is no big deal but perhaps this time I can get my point across better. It is great that where you work it is cross platform shop and uses a mix of NLE. I do see places where they want the editors to know both Mac and PC. Shouldn't college be a place to learn both platforms? Scott says absolutely not to cross platform. No PCs please. I asked if you had to teach a college course what would you do if there was something 99% like FCPX but it was free and cross platform? Wouldn't that be a better option for the students then FCPX? I was not asking about where you work. Having said that stating that where you work it is cross platform and uses Premiere and FCPX both helps prove both my points although not to you obviously.

[Walter Soyka] "Is the question about the price of software? I think that development costs money, so software should cost money. I hope to be here for a while, and I want the development industry that my business relies on to be healthy so that it can support me. I wonder if Apple and BMD have depressed the value of the tools we use, and what that means for media tool makers in the long term. There needs to be enough margin there to foster real competition."

I was not asking you if you think free software will cause BMD to go bankrupt. I am asking if a Program like FCPX was released by BMD and it was cross platform and free would that not be a better option for the students than FCPX? I am not asking if you think BMD would financial survive as a company giving out free software. My questions are about the best solution for teaching students the editing process not what is best for BMD or Apple.

[Walter Soyka] "Would I "buy FCPX for $300.00 knowing BMD offered the exact same thing for free?" In my experience, there are no two major software products in our market that are the exact same thing. I mind my expenses, but I'm also willing to pay for the products I want."

My question is not about you and the software you use. It is a hypothetical question for teaching students how to edit.

[Walter Soyka] "That said, I'd actually be really interested to see a an FCPX work-alike on the market. It would mean that someone innovated around a bunch of Apple patents."

FAST/Pinnacle/Avid had background rendering and GPU acceleration long before FCPX. Did the patent run out for Fast/Pinnacle/Avid? Perhaps it did.

[Walter Soyka] "Sorry if I misunderstood you before, but I can't see how suggesting that someone take classroom time to teach three NLEs instead of one does not go to the question of what to teach and how to teach it."

I was asking about what you would do if you had to teach editing classes. You stated you were taught both. Having said that having the option to take all three should be there. Not all students would take all three. If those three classes were added to the course catalogue it should make more money for the college.

What if someone had stated they taught editing classes (visual story telling) at college and only used Premiere Pro on PCs because Premiere on the PC is the best option for teaching the students editing. I think some people (FCPX & Avid editors) might have a few things to say about that. Wouldn't you agree? I have a PC and Premiere Pro. I would like to think if I went to college today I would have the chance to learn as much as I could. As you stated earlier your shop is Mac and PC and uses a combination of NLE. I think colleges should offer as much but perhaps that's just me.

[Walter Soyka] " My shop uses a mix of software, mainly Adobe, on both Macs and PCs. We use Premiere over FCPX nearly all of the time."

I am not saying Premiere is better than FCPX. I would think knowing them both and teaching them both might be a good idea.

I hope I explained things better this time or maybe worded them better. I think we may agree on many things.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 7, 2017 at 4:43:18 pm

[andy patterson] "FAST/Pinnacle/Avid had background rendering and GPU acceleration long before FCPX. Did the patent run out for Fast/Pinnacle/Avid? Perhaps it did. "

Actually this isn't true. Avid, at least Media Composer, hasn't had much in the way of GPU acceleration and not background rendering. They have had background transcoding, but it's not very useful. And patents aren't written quite that simplistically. Two different companies could both have patented background rendering or GPU acceleration using different paths or processes.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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andy patterson
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 8, 2017 at 3:49:37 am

[Oliver Peters] "Actually this isn't true. Avid, at least Media Composer, hasn't had much in the way of GPU acceleration and not background rendering"

Fast had background rendering with the Silver, Red and Purple systems. Pinnacle bought out Fast Multi Media and called it Liquid Edition. Liquid Edition added GPU acceleration. Avid later bought out Pinnacle and killed Liquid Edition.

[Oliver Peters] "And patents aren't written quite that simplistically. Two different companies could both have patented background rendering or GPU acceleration using different paths or processes."

I would tend to agree. Edius had Ripple Edit before Apple's magnetic timeline. Having said that Edius is not trackless. Adobe had great Metadata prior to FCPX. Keyword and Keyword collections were implemented in Adobe's bridge long before the release of FCPX. So I wonder what patents anyone mimicking FCPX would have to pay to Apple. Walter Soyka had brought up the patent issues not me.

[Oliver Peters] "They have had background transcoding, but it's not very useful."

There was an article (maybe 2007) saying Avid couldn't not implemented the features of Liquid into MC. I guess every NLE is different. Pinnacle was able to get Liquid to work with the Targa 3000 video capture card. I think it was called Liquid Chrome. Liquid Edition used Open GL. I know that.

That is why I wrote Fast/Pinnacle/Avid. I was not implying Avid's Media Composer had background rendering or GPU acceleration first. Fast was just bought and sold a lot before being killed by Avid. I was stating who might have the patents if anyone. We know it is not Apple.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 8, 2017 at 10:32:17 am

[andy patterson] "What if someone had stated they taught editing classes (visual story telling) at college and only used Premiere Pro on PCs because Premiere on the PC is the best option for teaching the students editing. I think some people (FCPX & Avid editors) might have a few things to say about that. Wouldn't you agree? I have a PC and Premiere Pro. I would like to think if I went to college today I would have the chance to learn as much as I could. "

Andy, I get what you're saying. But I think that this is a place where reasonable minds can disagree. There's a fill-in-the-blank there: "I would like to think if I went to college today I would have the chance to learn as much as I could about _____."

There are a lot of statements you could fill in that blank, but there are only so many teaching hours in a course, or a curriculum, or a degree. You fill it in with "all three major NLEs," and that makes a lot of sense. Others might fill it in with "the craft of editing" or "visual storytelling" and those make sense, too. Whatever you fill in there carries an opportunity cost; reaching any one of those goals requires lots of dedicated time at the exclusion of something else.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Tim Wilson
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 8, 2017 at 1:04:24 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Whatever you fill in there carries an opportunity cost; reaching any one of those goals requires lots of dedicated time at the exclusion of something else."

That's why picking 1 and sticking with it is the right call. There are plenty of reasons to pick one or another, which is why editing programs do indeed pick one or another, but unless the explicit goal of the class is "learn every major button in every major NLE", it's a colossal waste of time to even launch a second one, much less try to teach it. Launching a third would be catastrophic. It would be the OPPOSITE of learning editing. It would grind the learning of editing to a halt.

NLEs come and go, so, honestly, the less time spent thinking about them, talking about them, evaluating them, the better. The one thing that history should have taught us this far is that our favorite NLE may not have been invented yet.

More important, contemporary notions of NLEs and editing are steps in a historical process that's very much in motion. Much-loved boxes of FCP are sitting on shelves above much-loved Steenbecks, while the notion of a box of software has itself become a relic. There's just no point in getting wrapped around the axle of massive teaching time devoted to this stuff in an EDITING class because they could ALL be made irrelevant by the thing that's coming sooner than can be imagined.

Besides, the NLE is the easy part. It's just buttons. Any reasonably-well motivated primate can figure out which buttons to push in short order.

The editing part of editing is harder, and stays relevant for much longer. THAT's where teaching resources should be applied.

Before going all-in on the contrary view that it'd be better to present as many options and let the students decide for themselves, just for grins, try to find an editing program at any level that invests much energy in multiple NLEs. I've worked with scores of schools over the years, and I've yet to come across one. That's not to say they don't exist. It's to say that most of the ones worth their salt don't waste time on this.

It's fine that WE do, though. What else are we gonna do with our days? 😁

But we shouldn't let our own amusement with this suggest that it's in any way useful. I'd imagine that a thorough overview of the plusses and minuses of every major system would leave most kids thinking, "Wow, editing SUCKS."

Which would be a shame, because they'd likely not have spent more than a few minutes editing, compared to months spent on monkey work. EXACTLY the kind of thing we need schools NOT doing to kids.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 8, 2017 at 7:10:22 pm

Ultimately I agree that learning the art/craft is more important than learning a specific tool, but there is also a pragmatic element of putting students in the best position possible upon graduation. That's largely a localized target to hit though because what's applicable at Place A might not be applicable at Place B or D. For example, if a film school in LA only taught students on X then I think that would be disservice to the students because X use so is rare in LA (and I mean the county of Los Angeles, not just 'hollywood') and the competition for jobs (even entry level jobs) is so fierce (when its you vs 200+ other people for an entry level gig the people hiring are looking for anything they can to thin the herd).


This got me thinking to when I was in college and we didn't have any talk/instruction during class aimed at a specific brand of gear. We talked about theory/concepts, got basic instruction on how to turn stuff on, set it up properly (white balance, zero out the board, hooking up a deck, etc.,), three point lighting, proper mic placement, etc., but it was all gear-agnostic. We had 2 or 3 different kinds of cameras in the Media Lab (this was of course before the days when students could easily own whatever they needed), lavs, shotguns, light kits, MC, FCP, linear editors (simple setup with 2 decks and a basic edit controller), and analog and ProTools mixing rooms.

We got our assignments (ex. do a soft news story about a local business owner) and then we'd meet again a week or two later to analysis and criticism. In the time between classes we were totally unsupervised so it was all up to us to find a story, shoot it and cut it. I remember learning how to use MC from a classmate and eventually teaching other classmates myself. We mainly used MC (FCP was v1 at that time) and I even had to do some linear editing when all the other bays were booked. I don't think our instructor for the video production classes even knew how to turn the Avid on, but dude knew story like nobody's business (and had a wall full of Emmy's to prove it). The year after I graduated they added a bunch more editing bays (both MC and FCP) and a quick look on their site now shows that they have X, MC and PPro. At least these days you can pretty much run all three on a single machine where as back then that was a big no-go.

I'm not in Scott's shoes so I'm not going to tell him what's best for his situation, but at least in my experience being exposed to various editing gear didn't hamper my ability to learn the art/craft of editing. Did I learn all the ins and outs of each system? No, that wouldn't have been possible. What I did learn though was how to ingest media, perform edits, adjust audio, etc., and export media. Basically I knew just enough to get the edit done and not one iota more. haha!


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Tim Wilson
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 8, 2017 at 11:20:59 pm

[Andrew Kimery] " there is also a pragmatic element of putting students in the best position possible upon graduation. That's largely a localized target to hit though "

For example, at USC, they teach Avid. That's it. Full stop. No reference to any others. It would be a disservice.

That said, I don't think there's literally a single other place on the planet that has a target. None. Pick one. Any one. Have a reason.

For example, being honest, as bizarrely, freakishly, and absolutely at the extreme end of enthusiasm as I've been for X (demonstrably further out than Bill, Robin, or anyone else, from the very beginning), ME, I'd probably lean on Premiere, because I think every editor should be at least conversant with Photoshop and After Effects.

But the fact is that even in LA, not all the work is in TV and film. Certainly the assumption is that that IS the case if you're making the cut to get into USC, but UCLA is a pretty good school, and I get the impression is a little more catholic (lower case c) on the matter. But even in LA, the Art Institutes lean on Adobe stuff (Pro Tools for audio though).

I'm going to once again defer to Scott and Oliver, though. Let's not get too academic on how it SHOULD work when we have academics who can tell us how it DOES work. The numbers Scott cites for job placement are surely ones that any program anywhere would be proud of, and he's all about the X -- and clearly not doing a disservice to anyone in Virginia.

That said, I think you undermine the argument for "go broad" and support my own argument for "don't overdo ANY of these" when you conclude:

[Andrew Kimery] "Basically I knew just enough to get the edit done and not one iota more. haha!
"


So yeah, fair enough, I said name me a decent program trying to cover all the bases, and you did. But the process you describe that YOU went through is what I think the RIGHT one is, which is focus on one that's at the core of the curriculum, and teach yourself the other stuff on the side. I mean, it's not like the ONLY movies I watched were the ones I was assigned in film appreciation class, right? I didn't just read assigned books. I followed my curiosity.

But here's the thing. I didn't learn ANY NLEs, because they wouldn't exist for another decade after my schooling. 😁 The idea of owning a camera was preposterous...but the standpoint of the program was, you'll use U-matic because that's what here. You'll probably use something else later, like maybe that Betacam stuff we're seeing...but who knows. Could be anything. You'll leave here ready for anything, but not because you've used everything. Because you've learned how to learn one thing WELL. After that, learning anything else is trivial.

Even once NLEs entered academia, there was only one class of graduates in the 20th century who could have learned much about FCP, and nobody who graduated before 2011 would have learned anything about X. Yet here are all these folks using 'em just fine. I'm convinced that the people who adapted most quickly are people who are adaptable -- a personality trait, not a byproduct of specific training.

To me, the ephemeral nature of software COULD point to the value of sticking to Media Composer and Premiere as the NLEs most likely to still be around (depending on your measure of the fullness or emptiness of Avid's corporate glass). To ME, it's the reason to focus only on teaching enough to get the edit done and not one iota more. 😎

Heck, your career is the perfect argument for my point. At the end of the day, your whizziness with buttons in any one NLE was vastly less useful than the breadth of your knowledge about a whole lot of other things, including stuff well outside the range of editing, plus your resourcefulness (ie, NOT being so tied to one set of buttons that you couldn't function everywhere you needed to), and your general spunk. 😁 Buttons can be taught on the job. Spunk cannot. 😁

Not to dismiss the value of buttons altogether. An AE who doesn't show up the first day of work ready to log (for one example) really is worse than useless, even as an intern....but honestly, aren't the most important things about logging STILL, 150 years later, as much related to managing physical assets and reel names as anything software-related?

To take it the next step further, the one thing that every student learns that I can absolutely guarantee with one million percent certainty will at some point be obsolete, irrelevant, and potentially an obstacle to learning what they really NEED to be learning next is their NLE software. All the rest -- lights, camera, action -- will be useful forever.


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andy patterson
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 9, 2017 at 2:03:05 am

[Tim Wilson] "So yeah, fair enough, I said name me a decent program trying to cover all the bases, and you did. But the process you describe that YOU went through is what I think the RIGHT one is, which is focus on one that's at the core of the curriculum, and teach yourself the other stuff on the side. I mean, it's not like the ONLY movies I watched were the ones I was assigned in film appreciation class, right? I didn't just read assigned books. I followed my curiosity."

I think Andrew is saying the students that put a lot into the program will get a lot out. Not everyone would have to take all three classes for Avid, Premiere and FCPX. If you have an internship and find out they use Avid BAM! You are at college and your college offers Avid training. Having said that some college do have inept professors.

[Tim Wilson] "But here's the thing. I didn't learn ANY NLEs, because they wouldn't exist for another decade after my schooling. 😁 The idea of owning a camera was preposterous...but the standpoint of the program was, you'll use U-matic because that's what here. You'll probably use something else later, like maybe that Betacam stuff we're seeing...but who knows. Could be anything. You'll leave here ready for anything, but not because you've used everything. Because you've learned how to learn one thing WELL. After that, learning anything else is trivial."

U-matic 3/4" and Beta are still both linear media so only knowing one is OK. If you can edit 3/4' you can edit Beta as well. Kind of like SD and Memory Stick. I went to college prior to the NLE days and I loved learning the hardware, switcher CCU, CG.

I think there are people who will figure things out on their own and then there are those that must be taught. I think that is a key point to make.

I have seen some interesting comments from everyone.

Here is a flashback for some of you.






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Andrew Kimery
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 9, 2017 at 6:08:32 am

[Tim Wilson] "That said, I don't think there's literally a single other place on the planet that has a target. None. Pick one. Any one. Have a reason."

I'd say NYC probably mirrors LA. 😉 Low hanging fruit, I know.


[Tim Wilson] "But the fact is that even in LA, not all the work is in TV and film."

It's not, though in my first hand experiences, plus what I see from job postings (StaffMeUp, FilmAndTV Pro, Mandy, EntertainmentCareers, Media Match, Craigslist, various FB groups, etc.,), it doesn't seem to matter if you are doing movies, broadcast, cable, web/digital, corporate, commercials/trailers/promos, big budget, little budget... 99% of the gigs I've come across are either Avid or Premiere. I think Premiere has officially picked up where FCP Legend left off.


[Tim Wilson] "and your general spunk. 😁 Buttons can be taught on the job. Spunk cannot. 😁"

Thanks, Tim. I do pride myself on being tenacious. :)


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Ronny Courtens
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 9, 2017 at 1:24:39 pm

I agree with every single word of Tim's comment.

I just got back from visiting the most renowned film school in Spain where each year 1800 students from Spain and from all over the world get their Masters Degree in Film&Television. The school only teaches Final Cut Pro X for editing, and nothing else.

When I asked the Head of Post-Production why, he said (quote): "Because our students find it very easy to learn. So we don't have to spend much time explaining buttons and menus, and we can focus on what's really important: teaching them the art of editing. Once they master this, they can easily learn any other NLE if their job would require this in the future. Furthermore, all of the (over 100) tv and movie production companies associated with the school use FCP X. This makes it easy for us to get our graduation students internships at these companies. And most of these internships lead to them getting a first job."

When I asked about other software he said: we do teach Adobe software such as InDesign, Photoshop and AE, but not Premiere. We also teach Resolve for grading, and ProTools for audio. But we don't train Audio Engineers and our film students find ProTools too convoluted, so we will move to Logic next year.

I have visited a lot of national film schools in the past years, and this is without a doubt one of the most impressive ones. With state-of-the-art studios, editing rooms and classrooms located in an beautiful modern building right in the old heart of Barcelona, the school is sponsored by the largest media corporations in Spain and has delivered some of the biggest names in Spanish film and television production. And an interesting fact: 60% of the current students are women. The times are-a-changing. Welcome to the real world (-:



- Ronny


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andy patterson
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 9, 2017 at 3:19:48 pm

[Ronny Courtens] "When I asked the Head of Post-Production why, he said (quote): "Because our students find it very easy to learn. So we don't have to spend much time explaining buttons and menus, and we can focus on what's really important: teaching them the art of editing. Once they master this, they can easily learn any other NLE if their job would require this in the future."

You would think so but I have seen many videos where FCPX user demonstrate the difference between FCPX and Premiere Pro and they try to edit in Premiere Pro like it is FCPX. I see this often and I think to myself "wow you are making things ten times harder than they should actually be". Did they test out other NLE? I am not saying they should if the following below is true.

[Ronny Courtens] "Furthermore, all of the (over 100) tv and movie production companies associated with the school use FCP X. This makes it easy for us to get our graduation students internships at these companies. And most of these internships lead to them getting a first job.""

Obviously that make sense if the school has an internship where FCPX is used.

[Ronny Courtens] "I just got back from visiting the most renowned film school in Spain where each year 1800 students from Spain and from all over the world get their Masters Degree in Film&Television."

They say standard Radio & TV will be a thing of the past in the USA. The UHF stations were supposed to be auctioned off for true 5G. I read a couple of articles about in the past. Will it actually happen or will something better come along?

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/09/fcc-to-buy-out-tv-broadcasters-...


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andy patterson
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 9, 2017 at 1:14:13 am

[Walter Soyka] "There are a lot of statements you could fill in that blank, but there are only so many teaching hours in a course, or a curriculum, or a degree. You fill it in with "all three major NLEs," and that makes a lot of sense. Others might fill it in with "the craft of editing" or "visual storytelling" and those make sense, too. Whatever you fill in there carries an opportunity cost; reaching any one of those goals requires lots of dedicated time at the exclusion of something else."

I agree. I was just asking your opinion. Every college will have a different budget and different philosophy. I know some colleges do not have full studios with CCU, Character generator, Cameras, Switcher, Clearcom and Camplex system. It can be expensive to teach Radio, TV and film at the college level. Having said that I know some high schools that have full fledged TV studios.


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Scott Witthaus
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 7, 2017 at 1:09:43 am

[andy patterson] "Do all your students own an Apple computer?
"


Yes. It's strongly suggested. I have seen about 3 PC's in 9 years. Much like Full Sail requires a Mac for some programs, we strongly suggest that too. Our graduate program is Mac based.

[andy patterson] "$300.00 for FCPX is nice but it is not as good as free. Also FCPX is not cross platform. "

$199 for the package of software is pretty damn spiffy. Cross-platform? See above.

[andy patterson] "The fact that you could not respond by saying "if BMD had a NLE that mimicked FCPX for free and worked on Mac and PC I would opt to teach that instead of FCPX. "

Ok, ok, I'll answer a question that is not based in any facts, or alternative facts. BMD and Resolve are not as good, at the present time, than most of the other leading NLE's out there. However, if I ever feel that a future version of Resolve might benefit my students in their craft I would investigate it. But right now, it's a non-issue. But I do keep an eye on things. I went to the Adobe Max conference in November and I, like a couple on this list, am in the Avid Ambassadors group. Trust me, I keep an eye on things that will be help my students.

[andy patterson] " If your school is not teaching Premiere and Avid the students are not getting the best education. "

sigh.

[andy patterson] "Then why teach FCPX? "

As stated before, it's the best and easiest software to teach the craft, in my humble opine.

[andy patterson] "Isn't that why you have a job?"

yup. And since I have used and made money on all three, I can answer those questions.

Andy, you're not a fan of X. Totally cool. I am. Totally cool. But I know what I am teaching and am comfortable in what and how I teach. I have my student's best interest in mind for the industries they enter. Student reviews are generally excellent. Our students have a 97% placement rate at 6 months after graduation. I am ok with that. For more info, go here: http://www.brandcenter.vcu.edu/

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Oliver Peters
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 7, 2017 at 2:07:07 am

[Scott Witthaus] "Much like Full Sail requires a Mac for some programs, we strongly suggest that too. "

Actually, Full Sail provides (not requires) MacBook Pros, which are covered via their tuition. They are required to use the gear provided. Each laptop comes with a pre-installed software bundle that is specific to the part of the college they are in. Depending on department or degree, this includes FCPX, Media Composer, Pro Tools and/or Adobe Creative Cloud. In the Digital Cinematography online program, this also extends to a small camera package.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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andy patterson
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 7, 2017 at 2:35:14 am

[Scott Witthaus] "[andy patterson] "Do all your students own an Apple computer?
"

Yes. It's strongly suggested. I have seen about 3 PC's in 9 years. Much like Full Sail requires a Mac for some programs, we strongly suggest that too. Our graduate program is Mac based."


Are you saying you could teach the art of editing using an iMac and iMovie but it would be impossible to do that using a PC and Premiere Pro. That is awfully nice of the school to force Apple products on you. What if the school forced you to buy a PC?

[Scott Witthaus] "[andy patterson] "$300.00 for FCPX is nice but it is not as good as free. Also FCPX is not cross platform. "

$199 for the package of software is pretty damn spiffy. Cross-platform? See above."


It is still a lot more money than free.

[Scott Witthaus] "[andy patterson] "Then why teach FCPX? "

As stated before, it's the best and easiest software to teach the craft, in my humble opine."


In your humble opinion you probably think the Mac Pro is better than a PC workstation. Am I correct?

[Scott Witthaus] "[andy patterson] "Isn't that why you have a job?"

yup. And since I have used and made money on all three, I can answer those questions."


Many people can answer the same question and give a different answer.

[Scott Witthaus] "Andy, you're not a fan of X. Totally cool. I am. Totally cool. But I know what I am teaching and am comfortable in what and how I teach. I have my student's best interest in mind for the industries they enter. Student reviews are generally excellent. Our students have a 97% placement rate at 6 months after graduation. I am ok with that. For more info, go here: http://www.brandcenter.vcu.edu/"

Actually your comment is incorrect. I have stated FCPX is a good program many times. I just think Premiere Pro, AE and Cinema 4-D can work well together. AE has some cool features. Having said that I would not have a problem teaching FCPX or iMovie. Avid, FCPX, Resolve and Premiere Pro all work. If you were told you had to teach Premiere Pro next semester on a PC would you welcome it or hate it?


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Scott Witthaus
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 7, 2017 at 10:20:19 am

Andy, am sure everyone is getting tired of our back and forth (I know I am), so let me just finish by saying yet again that while I appreciate your point of view and your passion on the subject, I am very comfortable what I teach and how I teach it. Right now, X is part of that process. If another tool came to market (that can work in our infrastructure) that might better help our students in storytelling, I would research and consider it. Again, I don't teach a "how to use the buttons to make an edit to get a job" class. And I don't "hate" Premiere, rather I think it's not the best tool (at this time) for my students . Maybe that changes in the future. If Apple suddenly gave up on X, I would be totally comfortable teaching Premiere or MC to get the desired results for my students.

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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andy patterson
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 7, 2017 at 1:04:50 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "Andy, am sure everyone is getting tired of our back and forth (I know I am), so let me just finish by saying yet again that while I appreciate your point of view and your passion on the subject, I am very comfortable what I teach and how I teach it."

Who would you blame for that? You could have answered my question the first time I asked it. Instead you compared a TV Station to a college. I found your reply kind of odd. None the less I responded to it.

[Scott Witthaus] " And I don't "hate" Premiere, rather I think it's not the best tool (at this time) for my students"

For the record I say negative things about Adobe all the time. In fact I tell people that own a Mac FCPX might be your best bet. I have no problem saying it. I know the price of FCPX is nice but some Mac users still prefer Avid and Premiere Pro over FCPX. I should also state that if only Premiere Pro was taught I would find that odd as well. Why not offer classes for Avid and Premiere Pro where you work and ask the students for their input? Perhaps their feedback could be useful. Perhaps they would say it was good to learn FCPX, Premiere and Avid. A student might say they like the magnetic timeline of FCXP but they may also tell you they like the customization of Premiere Pro's GUI better than FCPX's GUI.


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Scott Witthaus
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 7, 2017 at 8:27:14 pm

[andy patterson] "you could have answered my question the first time I asked it. Instead you compared a TV Station to a college. I found your reply kind of odd. None the less I responded to it. "

errr, what?

[andy patterson] ". Why not offer classes for Avid and Premiere Pro where you work and ask the students for their input? Perhaps their feedback could be useful. Perhaps they would say it was good to learn FCPX, Premiere and Avid."

You're just not getting it. Please go back and re-read my answers. Maybe that will help. Have a nice day.

Oh, I did find out that Berklee Online is offering an online class on FCPX, but I can't find an online Avid or Premiere class! https://online.berklee.edu/brands/final-cut-pro

What a crappy school for doing that! 😉 Kidding.

signing off....

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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andy patterson
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 8, 2017 at 5:57:22 am

[Scott Witthaus] "Oh, I did find out that Berklee Online is offering an online class on FCPX, but I can't find an online Avid or Premiere class! https://online.berklee.edu/brands/final-cut-pro"

Once again I find your response a little odd. Every college is going to do what is best for them. If a college stated we teach only Avid because Avid gave our college 20 MC licenses for free I could not blame them. FCPX does have a nice price. If you had stated we opted for FCPX because of the price I could relate.

[Scott Witthaus] "
In my mind, X is a superior product for editorial and that is what I teach them.


If some had stated "In my mind, Avid is a superior product for editorial and that is what I teach them". You would probably comment by stating you think FCPX is a superior editor. Am I correct? You would probably state that FCPX has some good features and is worth knowing. I would agree that FCPX is worth knowing. See my point? Has anyone ever seen me state FCPX or Avid should not be taught? Has anyone ever seen me post that Premiere Pro is the best NLE? I am getting a sense that you feel only FCPX is worth knowing. If not you would probably want to teach an Avid class as well or have someone else teach it. Correct? If you had sated "our college only has the budget for iMacs and FCPX but I wish we could offer Avid and Premiere on the PC that would shine a different light on things. Below is your response to a school that teaches only Premiere Pro.

[Scott Witthaus] "[Claude Lyneis] " The staff at our local film school all went PP after FC7 was abandoned and there is almost revulsion at the idea of X. "

Faculty needs to do whats best for the visual storytelling, not their own hide in their own bias. I think if the faculty at your school gave each software equal play there might be a difference"


For the record I am saying the same thing to you as you did to Cluade. You think learning other software titles would be good for a school if Premiere Pro is the NLE of choice. Can you see how that is some what hypocritical?

[Scott Witthaus] "What a crappy school for doing that! 😉 Kidding."

Walter Soyka stated where he works they use Mac and PC as well as FCPX and Premiere Pro. Some places do want the editor to know both Mac and PC. Shouldn't college be the place to learn both Mac and PC? When you only teach FCPX and have an all Mac platform it does limit the student learning potential. I am not saying if the school has a very tight budget and Apple gave them a better deal than HP that they shouldn't opt for Apple. What I also noticed is that you are happy that your college is all Mac based. That is OK. Many people would prefer to know both. I now how to use a PC. If our community college only taught on PCs I would feel a little ripped off since I know how to use a PC. Every school is going to do it their way. Some will opt for both Mac and PC platforms while others will not. Some will teach Avid and Premiere Pro and others will not. I am not trying to imply your school is no good. In fact it is probably a great school. You are probably a great instructor but every instructor and every college will be different.


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Tony West
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 7, 2017 at 6:04:25 pm

[andy patterson] "You should be able to teach all three unless you are only a part time instructor."

Do YOU teach all 3?


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andy patterson
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 8, 2017 at 4:17:02 am

[Tony West] "[andy patterson] "You should be able to teach all three unless you are only a part time instructor."

Do YOU teach all 3?"


Interesting you would ask. I do not teach all three. I did teach Pinnacle Studio (not Pinnacle Liquid Edition) as part of a continuing education program at the community center. The course was for average people wanting to know how to edit home movies (DVDs). Pinnacle could work as software only or with their hardware for less than $100.00 to capture VHS and HI-8 tapes. Having said that if I was offered to teach full time at a college I would welcome the chance to teach all three. Why not? For the record I taught a basic computer repair class while I was teaching the video editing class.


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Tony West
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 8, 2017 at 5:36:40 am

[andy patterson] "Do YOU teach all 3?"

Interesting you would ask."


I was just curious if you were telling him how to do his job from personal experience of doing what you told him to do yourself, or from an assumption that you could do it better if you ever had the chance to do it in real life, instead of in your head.


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Eric Santiago
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 8, 2017 at 1:01:11 pm

I have the pleasure of teaching FCPX and Premiere Pro and even better that I get to work with all three almost daily in Broadcast, Film and Corporate level.

I do my best to show the students the differences and commonalities.

Honestly in the last few years its 50/50 with Apple and Adobe as far as user traction.

The Avid users are mostly legacy owners that have passed it down the line.

I am sure its different in other parts of the country.

IMHO, FCPX users are up and running with their personal projects.

Now as far as negatives go, last night I had to show the Premiere Title Tool...nuff sed :P


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andy patterson
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 9, 2017 at 12:57:36 am

[Eric Santiago] "Now as far as negatives go, last night I had to show the Premiere Title Tool...nuff sed :P"

I like the titling tool in Premiere. You can create track mattes with it and really cool text and lower thirds. As far as I know FCPX does not have any drawing tools with their titling system. Can you elaborate on your comment a little more?


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andy patterson
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 9, 2017 at 12:50:54 am

[Tony West] "I was just curious if you were telling him how to do his job from personal experience of doing what you told him to do yourself, or from an assumption that you could do it better if you ever had the chance to do it in real life, instead of in your head."

I would not mind if someone critiqued me and stated they knew of another software/hardware combo (in 2003) that was less expensive than what Pinnacle had at the time and would allow for capturing old VHS and HI-8 tapes. I had people 10-60 years of age in the video class an computer repair class. Some had their own hardware and software and I was able to get it all to work pretty easy. I stayed after class on my own dime many times. I love teaching the classes.

[Scott Witthaus] "[Claude Lyneis] " The staff at our local film school all went PP after FC7 was abandoned and there is almost revulsion at the idea of X. "

Faculty needs to do whats best for the visual storytelling, not their own hide in their own bias. I think if the faculty at your school gave each software equal play there might be a difference,"


His first comment on the subject implies that introducing students to different software titles might a be a benefit to the students. I tend to agree all though it may not be possible. Scott and I both agree if only Premiere Pro it being taught. On the other hand Scott thinks if FCPX is there NLE of choice then there is not a need to offer classes for other software titles. In other words Scott is kind of saying the "other school" should offer more than one NLE class but his "school" shouldn't. Could that be seen as hypocritical to critic another school for doing the same thing? That is kind of my point.


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Tony West
Re: Just Business...
on Feb 9, 2017 at 5:20:42 am

[andy patterson] "I stayed after class on my own dime many times. I love teaching the classes."

That's cool.


Maybe you could teach all three on your own dime and report back here how it went.


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