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10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.

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Bill Davis
10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 19, 2017 at 11:44:31 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Jan 19, 2017 at 11:47:12 pm

My friend Mads Larsen Nielsen - who works at the huge Metronome facility in Europe posted this on today's 10.3.2 update to FCP X...

"I kid you not when I say this this, for us at Metronome and basically anyone who works with FCPX in the pro television industry, doing shows/long-form projects, also including anyone cutting feature films, FCPX 10.3.2 is one of the most, if not the most important release of FCPX, ever since the initial launch."

In the spirit of the forum title, I thought this was useful news.

Carry on.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 20, 2017 at 12:28:04 am

Funny. Also from Nielsen: "Now we are actually ABLE to work in the timeline." This pertains to large projects (sequences) and is something many of us have been complaining about for a long, long time. Yet many would argue that the issue doesn't exist. ☺

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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David Mathis
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 20, 2017 at 1:13:02 am

Nice update but still no out of sync indicators. 😐


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Bill Davis
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 20, 2017 at 1:29:38 am

Yep, and Cindy Crawford STILL has that damn MOLE!!!

I haven't lost "sync" on anything in about 4 years now. Learn to manage your clips via the X "reference clips" system (embedded audio clips, sync clips, compound clips, and multcam clips) - and you might might never have to lose sync on anything in a storyline again either?

Sync loss happens in my experience to people who rely on either "detach audio" or "break apart clip items" to work on their audio in ways they are more conditioned to in tracked timelines. It's pretty darn easy to avoid the problem in X. If you have to shift audio, just mute the source clip in place, make a quick audio only copy - and drop it in as a connected audio clip elsewhere. Give it a quick "Wild lines" Role so you can locate it super fast if you ever need to. No need to break anything apart and destroy the sync relationship when everything is just a digital abstraction anyway.

FWIW.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Michael Hancock
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 20, 2017 at 2:02:52 am

Or Apple could add out-of-sync indicators. I know I'd prefer they do that than have to do silly workarounds.

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


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andy patterson
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 20, 2017 at 2:07:46 am

[Bill Davis] "
Sync loss happens in my experience to people who rely on either "detach audio" or "break apart clip items" to work on their audio in ways they are more conditioned to in tracked timelines. It's pretty darn easy to avoid the problem in X. If you have to shift audio, just mute the source clip in place, make a quick audio only copy - and drop it in as a connected audio clip elsewhere. Give it a quick "Wild lines" Role so you can locate it super fast if you ever need to. No need to break anything apart and destroy the sync relationship when everything is just a digital abstraction anyway."


Why can't people have the best of both worlds? Shouldn't more options be welcomed?


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Bill Davis
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 20, 2017 at 5:27:17 am
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Jan 20, 2017 at 5:32:35 am

Sure.

Apple needs to keep their sights firmly on re-creating ALL the old tools and conventions so that they can concentrate on giving everyone what they are USED TO!

Cuz, you know, all the different stuff like range selected keywording, magnetism, the skimmer, and roles - all that stuff is silly when the development team COULD spend their time adding back ALL the traditional stuff older editors have had for years, (even when, as I was describing, it's less relevant in the style of editing X excels at.)

No reason to spend time trying to move forward here.

The old ways are always the BEST ways.

Heck, I was trained in the 1980s to edit by cutting mylar tape with a razor blade.

It was SO tactile and SO obvious.... HEY! Wait just a second... I've got it! X should figure out how to turn the Touch Bar into a virtual Splicing Block complete with virtual 45 and 90 degree "cuts"!!!

That would be, like... sick.

; )

(I'm truly teasing. There's nothing wrong with sync indicators, of course. And it's a perfectly understandable capability that many editors would appreciate. And who knows, maybe they will eventually make their way into X. Its just that NOT waiting for traditional stuff like that is likely why the X team has managed to keep the innovation flowing with stuff like the deep Roles re-build in 10.3.

And THATs where I want the X developers to keep their focus. That saves DAYS potentially. While sync slip indicators save, at best seconds occasionally. FWIW.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Steve Connor
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 20, 2017 at 7:26:42 am
Last Edited By Steve Connor on Jan 20, 2017 at 7:28:07 am

[Bill Davis] "And THATs where I want the X developers to keep their focus. That saves DAYS potentially. While sync slip indicators save, at best seconds occasionally. FWIW."

For YOUR workflow, other people's milage DOES vary

You don't have to shout down EVERY request for new features!


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Scott Witthaus
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 20, 2017 at 11:21:43 am

Another way to look at it is that if you are out of sync, you purposely split audio and video elements. Well, you just made your own bed and now you have to sleep in it! 😉 (insert cranky old voice here): 'back in my day, your eyes were the best sync indicator! Mouth moves without sound, well then you're out if sync, sonny!'

With the momentum FCPX seemingly has, I just wonder why Apple let's Motion and Logic seemingly sit in the background. Get all three in the spotlight and get them working seamlessly together and you have a helluva package to sell.

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Steve Connor
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 20, 2017 at 12:54:52 pm

Kudos to Apple though for the recent pace of FCPX updates, really inspires confidence in the future


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 25, 2017 at 3:18:23 pm

[Steve Connor] "Kudos to Apple though for the recent pace of FCPX updates, really inspires confidence in the future"

So the, until now, mere 3 to max 4 months (with one exception) between updates, i.e. over 20 in just five years weren't enough for that already? Wow. Okay.

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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Steve Connor
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 25, 2017 at 4:03:56 pm
Last Edited By Steve Connor on Jan 25, 2017 at 4:06:50 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "So the, until now, mere 3 to max 4 months (with one exception) between updates, i.e. over 20 in just five years weren't enough for that already? Wow. Okay.
"


No it wasn't Robin, I was getting to the point where I almost ran out of Kool-Aid, should have asked for some of your plentiful supply of it really.

Has it got to the point where someone posts a COMPLIMENT to the FCPX team and you still have to charge in with a snide comment?


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Oliver Peters
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 20, 2017 at 12:59:47 pm
Last Edited By Oliver Peters on Jan 20, 2017 at 1:06:03 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "Logic seemingly sit in the background"

Logic just received a big update.

https://9to5mac.com/2017/01/18/apple-logic-pro-x-10-3-custom-touch-bar-gara...

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Scott Witthaus
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 20, 2017 at 3:15:13 pm

[Oliver Peters] "[Scott Witthaus] "Logic seemingly sit in the background"

Logic just received a big update."


I was talking more about marketing. Logic is a ProTools competitor (on some levels) and Motion is an AE competitor (on some levels). Why not make them work together better and market the hell out of them?

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Oliver Peters
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 20, 2017 at 3:37:13 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "Why not make them work together better and market the hell out of them?"

You must be confusing Apple with the other "A" companies. ☺

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Eric Santiago
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 20, 2017 at 3:50:31 pm

[Oliver Peters] "You must be confusing Apple with the other "A" companies. ☺

- Oliver"


Aaah yes the other A***.

I just spent a week trying to get a dongle to work.

Maybe that other A*** should use Apples Cloud licensing option next time around ☺

I know off topic but I felt left out ;)


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Oliver Peters
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 20, 2017 at 4:51:05 pm

[Eric Santiago] "I just spent a week trying to get a dongle to work.
Maybe that other A*** should use Apples Cloud licensing option next time around ☺"


Or maybe you could just change from the dongle option to the other licensing methods, like others have.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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andy patterson
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 20, 2017 at 9:11:11 am

[Bill Davis] "Apple needs to keep their sights firmly on re-creating ALL the old tools and conventions so that they can concentrate on giving everyone what they are USED TO!

Cuz, you know, all the different stuff like range selected keywording, magnetism, the skimmer, and roles - all that stuff is silly when the development team COULD spend their time adding back ALL the traditional stuff older editors have had for years, (even when, as I was describing, it's less relevant in the style of editing X excels at.)"


Are you saying that FCPX is such a horrible program that by adding out-of-sync indicators the keyword collection and magnetic timeline would stop working? That would be like saying Premiere can have a titling tool or key framing but not both. Why not have it all?

[Bill Davis] "Heck, I was trained in the 1980s to edit by cutting mylar tape with a razor blade."

I did the same thing on an old Otari reel to reel system. I bet a lot of us here have had to cut and splice tap. Did you do a straight cut or and angled cut : )

Heck, I used to have to edit with old analogue 3/4" tapes and Beta tapes but I am not sure what that has to to with the price or turtle wax : )


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Herb Sevush
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 20, 2017 at 1:16:27 pm

[Bill Davis] "Its just that NOT waiting for traditional stuff like that is likely why the X team has managed to keep the innovation flowing with stuff like the deep Roles re-build in 10.3."

But you made this same argument for why it wasn't important to do the Roles re-build - in fact you've made this same argument every time anyone, anywhere, asked for any changes to X "your just stuck in the old ways, I want the developers to push forward."

Maybe pushing forward is building an innovative way to handle sync indicators that was never seen before, and this new capability will be useful in ways you've never thought of. For someone so happy to reach for the new you act like someone afraid to leave hold of what you have - the new you are now protecting is so yesterday.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bill Davis
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 21, 2017 at 2:27:02 am

But Herb, what I have keeps getting better and better and better.

And that makes my work easier and easier and easier.

Why the hell would I want to give that up?

For example, I have a minor project in house where I have a bunch of stock photos embedded in an art directors design. We sourced the images from at least 5 stock sources like Getty, and iStock, etc.

I set up sub-roles for each image source. That lets me highlight each vendors clips with a click. Better than that, in the timeline index, I can sort by those subRoles and group/sort by vendor or clip ID. These small projects often take weeks to get client feedback about - so whenever I get back to it, I know that my "micro database" of image source information lives right inside my project. On "go ahead", it's way easier now to use the image ID info embedded in the clips to source the non watermarked finals and replace them in the projects Compound clips.

Just a tiny type of convenience Roles is enabling for me as I learn new ways to use it.

I just can't fathom why I'd want to jettison these very efficient new workflows to move away from X.

Maybe AVID and Premiere Pro let you "reach into" your timelines and identify assets by metadata class like this, I don't know. All I know is I'm finding it super useful and efficient.

FWIW.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Walter Soyka
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 21, 2017 at 2:55:49 am

[Bill Davis] "That lets me highlight each vendors clips with a click. Better than that, in the timeline index, I can sort by those subRoles and group/sort by vendor or clip ID. These small projects often take weeks to get client feedback about - so whenever I get back to it, I know that my "micro database" of image source information lives right inside my project. On "go ahead", it's way easier now to use the image ID info embedded in the clips to source the non watermarked finals and replace them in the projects Compound clips. Just a tiny type of convenience Roles is enabling for me as I learn new ways to use it. I just can't fathom why I'd want to jettison these very efficient new workflows to move away from X."

Adobe Stock is nicely integrated with the Creative Cloud applications. You can search for stock, download comps, and license final assets right from a panel in Premiere or After Effects. No mini-database or manual file management required. For example:
https://helpx.adobe.com/stock/how-to/adobe-stock-video-footage.html

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Bill Davis
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 21, 2017 at 3:15:40 am

[Walter Soyka] "Adobe Stock is nicely integrated with the Creative Cloud applications. "

Which is wonderful if you want to source everything from that one service.

My clients tend to cast a much wider net for the right image.

Also do I recall reading that considering the Photographer does all the work to create the Intellectual Property in the form of a great image, and uploads it to Adobe Stock, Adobe keeps significantly more than 50% of the license fee?

Can that be right?

Seems kinda lopsided, but maybe I misunderstood the terms.

If so I'm sure somebody will correct me pronto.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Walter Soyka
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 21, 2017 at 3:55:04 am

[Bill Davis] "Which is wonderful if you want to source everything from that one service. My clients tend to cast a much wider net for the right image. "

With Adobe's panel architecture, there are lots of other options, too:
http://www.gettyimages.com/resources/plugins
https://www.pond5.com/adobe
https://www.shutterstock.com/blog/announcing-shutterstock-plugin-adobe-phot...

I'd think you'd find this appealing, since you never have to leave your creative application.


[Bill Davis] "Also do I recall reading that considering the Photographer does all the work to create the Intellectual Property in the form of a great image, and uploads it to Adobe Stock, Adobe keeps significantly more than 50% of the license fee? "

A quick check on the contributor FAQs shows Adobe paying 33% on photography - more than twice as much as the base 15% from one of your other suggestions, iStock. I agree both numbers seem pretty grim, but maybe the volume they provide makes that worthwhile?

Either way, the metadata-based workflow you describe is also possible in Premiere, which actually has extensive metadata capabilities, especially at the asset level like this. I think Avid could easily do this, too, but it has been quite a while now since I've been on an Avid.

I don't mean to give you a hard time on this; it's probably just not the best example for FCPX. This is a real world problem that Adobe has a great handle on. Asset-based workflows are the new file-based workflow.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Bill Davis
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 21, 2017 at 4:33:33 am

Fair enough and thanks for the info, Walter.

How do they handle the asset management stuff without something like Roles in operation? How does the Adobe ecosystem manage which clips are embedded in the projects? Is it this handled by the "panels" thing?

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Walter Soyka
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 24, 2017 at 3:09:06 am

Bill, sorry I missed this before.

[Bill Davis] "How do they handle the asset management stuff without something like Roles in operation?"

Metadata:
https://helpx.adobe.com/premiere-pro/using/metadata.html

Adobe's XMP metadata platform is extensive. (It's also an open technology and I think it would be very cool if Apple had used XMP as the basis for FCPX's metadata management.)


[Bill Davis] "How does the Adobe ecosystem manage which clips are embedded in the projects? Is it this handled by the "panels" thing?"

I'm afraid I don't understand the question. Premiere Pro (like all NLEs) uses a relational database under the hood, but I don't really understand what you're asking here. If you can re-state the question a different way, maybe I'll understand better and then I could answer.

Here's the best layman's description of the CEP panel architecture I could find:
https://blogs.adobe.com/creativecloud/adobe-cep-extensions-and-developing-a...

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Bill Davis
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 27, 2017 at 5:20:08 am

[Walter Soyka] "Bill Davis] "How does the Adobe ecosystem manage which clips are embedded in the projects? Is it this handled by the "panels" thing?"

I'm afraid I don't understand the question. Premiere Pro (like all NLEs) uses a relational database under the hood, but I don't really understand what you're asking here. If you can re-state the question a different way, maybe I'll understand better and then I could answer."


Sorry for being unclear, Walter.

At the core, one of the things I enjoy most about working with X is how I can access assets across my storylines - basically letting me "reach into" my editing constructions to search out and identify the specific assets I might be interested in manipulating.

This is implemented both via keyword search, smart collections - and how markers are expressed in the timeline index.

It seems "well connected" to me - allowing me to make a decision easily.

One example would be "change all the clips in this CLASS to a duration of 20 frames" - and globally execute this even after I've constructed a storyline where all the clips in that class are all currently 30 frames.

This is what I was referring to as "clips embedded in projects."

Again, sorry to have written it so poorly.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 27, 2017 at 1:33:14 pm
Last Edited By Oliver Peters on Jan 27, 2017 at 1:37:27 pm

[Bill Davis] "At the core, one of the things I enjoy most about working with X is how I can access assets across my storylines - basically letting me "reach into" my editing constructions to search out and identify the specific assets I might be interested in manipulating."

This is no different than any other NLE. FCPX does it in a very elegant way, but it's not a unique or new concept. The novel twist is keyword and smart collections. The unique aspect is multiple range selections within the same clip.

[Bill Davis] "One example would be "change all the clips in this CLASS to a duration of 20 frames" - and globally execute this even after I've constructed a storyline where all the clips in that class are all currently 30 frames."

Premiere Pro enables similar editing solutions.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 27, 2017 at 4:13:23 pm

Thanks for the clarification, Oliver.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Herb Sevush
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 21, 2017 at 1:41:06 pm

[Bill Davis] "But Herb, what I have keeps getting better and better and better."

Good.

[Bill Davis] "Why the hell would I want to give that up?"

Who's asking you too? I have no doubt that you have found the best of all possible tools to do your work with -- a software marriage made in heaven.

But when someone else, even someone well practiced with X, asks for what they see as improvements, your knee jerk reflex is to say - " I don't want developers wasting time with bringing back the old, let's push on to the new."

And I think that's silly. What was the roles re-build but an innovative way to bring back the old - in this case "visual organization."

Perhaps some of these ideas, from editors with differing backgrounds, might make X even more useful to you and help it to keep "getting better and better and better."

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 25, 2017 at 3:11:41 pm

[David Mathis] "but still no out of sync indicators."

And don't hold your breath, seeing that they are of zero relevance in X.

Unless of course you can outline any situation or task in FCP X where you haven't simply done something completely unnecessary to your synced audio to equally unnecessarily cause the asynchronous result to begin with. Anything where the proposed sync indicators could be of global and practical use, as opposed to simply switching to a more sensible, existing workflow alternative to whatever it is you're doing. Something that can somehow make the obvious point that shows why sync indicators could in fact be considered a constructive improvement or necessity. Including for every other X user that has actually understood the most basic concepts of how X works and not just for making the lives of those easier that are just ignorant of certain workflows (and unwilling to learn/adapt). The latter, from my experience, being the only ones that ever felt synch indicators could actually make any sense. And always for mere familiarity reasons, not out of objective necessity. So yes, I'd truly be very curious what that task or situation could be.

I've asked that every time I see that come up, too, and to date not once actually gotten an answer that didn't simply describe the above. Or I just simply got the ol' "Because I need them. Period." response as their only logical justification (much like it seems to be the case here once again?). Or no response at all. At least I haven't seen any practical explanations as to why we should be hoping for them. But maybe I just overlooked them? Or could this be a first? 😏

- RK


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 28, 2017 at 12:43:26 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "and to date not once actually gotten an answer that didn't simply describe the above. Or I just simply got the ol' "Because I need them. Period." response as their only logical justification (much like it seems to be the case here once again?). Or no response at all. "

So I guess we now know which one we can settle on. 😏

Gee, wonder why.


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Bill Davis
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 27, 2017 at 5:36:06 am
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Jan 27, 2017 at 5:37:45 am

[Oliver Peters] "Funny. Also from Nielsen: "Now we are actually ABLE to work in the timeline." This pertains to large projects (sequences) and is something many of us have been complaining about for a long, long time. Yet many would argue that the issue doesn't exist. ☺
"


A few days ago (I've been on a client deadline since and mentally pushed it aside) I got a personal note from Mads about this.

He was sorta apologizing for the "in-artful" phrasing of his post. (Remember, English is NOT his first language - tho you certainly wouldn't know it from chatting with him in person!)

Why in heaven's sake he'd think he had ANY reason to apologize to me for anything is WAY beyond me - but I think he felt that his comment "in that form" caused me problems in this thread he didn't wish to cause.

I just noted that's how language interpretation works. (and this forum has ALWAYS been pretty crappy at language interpretation, truth be told - and I'm as guilty of it as the next guy!)

We say or write what we mean. Others hear what they FEEL we were trying to say. And there's often a gap in between those two realities.

Just for the record, Mads was NOT trying to imply he "couldn't use" X before 10.3.2 or that the operational experience was "bad" before the update.

Quite the opposite. Their team has been churning out deadline oriented broadcast content quite handily (and winning awards for it) for quite some time now.

But like everyone who edits - a significant boost in daily productivity with the software flowing smoother and working faster than it did before - is ALWAYS cause for celebration.

Simple as that.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Mark Smith
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 20, 2017 at 3:36:49 pm

So where does this review apppear? I get no recent posts by the author turning up in google searches? Then again Google appears to hate on me from time time.


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Oliver Peters
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 20, 2017 at 3:41:07 pm

No reviews. Go to the first comment at the bottom of this article.

http://www.fcp.co/final-cut-pro/news/1920-final-cut-pro-x-updated-to-10-3-2...

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Herb Sevush
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 20, 2017 at 3:55:38 pm

[Bill Davis] ""I kid you not when I say this this, for us at Metronome and basically anyone who works with FCPX in the pro television industry, doing shows/long-form projects, also including anyone cutting feature films, FCPX 10.3.2 is one of the most, if not the most important release of FCPX, ever since the initial launch.""

Funny how you cut the quote off at this point. I think I'll remedy that by finishing the quote -

"Even surpassing 10.3. Now we are actually ABLE to work in the timeline. Now the snappiness of FCPX also applies to us."

WOW, they can now actually "work in the timeline." What an advance in NLE software design, what was I thinking of ever using anything else. So according to one of it's better known proponents it's taken 5 years for X to be suitable for long form work. Well, I guess that is progress.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Joe Marler
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 20, 2017 at 4:19:00 pm

[Herb Sevush] "according to one of it's better known proponents it's taken 5 years for X to be suitable for long form work. Well, I guess that is progress.
"


This was apparently a new problem. Previous versions have been tested with a timeline up to 588 *days* long, and with up to 1,000 layers:

http://www.fcp.co/final-cut-pro/news/1372-pushing-apple-s-new-mac-pro-and-f...

Although described as a "long timeline" performance problem, this new issue doesn't really require a long timeline. It can be seen in a 15 min. timeline provided there are many connected clips. It is supposedly fixed in 10.3.2. It was some kind of performance regression inadvertently introduced when adding the "Timeline 2" functionality.


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Oliver Peters
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 20, 2017 at 4:39:47 pm

[Joe Marler] "This was apparently a new problem. Previous versions have been tested with a timeline up to 588 *days* long, and with up to 1,000 layers:"

None of those are realistic tests. The real test is to take a long timeline, like a 90+ min. feature film. Drag a primary clip (with numerous connected clips) from the back to the front and see how laggy it is. Especially is you have an adjustment layer across the entire timeline. That's the real issue and largely a mess in X. Much faster to copy, delete, paste insert and adjust.

Now in fairness, it's tough for other NLEs, too, because of look-forward and look-behind playback functions. It's what Avid calls "building the pipes". To get around these issues, they have long offered the ability to alter the playlength. That's a command that controls how long a sequence has to play before it stops. It a similar issue with X and other NLEs. However, Premiere is about the smoothest in this regard.

That being said, I've cut a feature film back in the 10.09 days and it was fine. However, like most features and other feature editors, I cut in reels and then combined them for the final film sequence. And I used proxies the whole way, as this was a RED-originated film. Worked fine on a 2010 tower.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Scott Witthaus
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 20, 2017 at 4:34:30 pm

[Herb Sevush] "So according to one of it's better known proponents it's taken 5 years for X to be suitable for long form work. Well, I guess that is progress."

Took Premiere a lot longer, though.

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Oliver Peters
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 20, 2017 at 4:40:35 pm
Last Edited By Oliver Peters on Jan 20, 2017 at 4:44:18 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "Took Premiere a lot longer, though."

No, not really.

https://digitalfilms.wordpress.com/2015/03/31/focus/
https://digitalfilms.wordpress.com/2014/11/07/gone-girl/

Compare the dates.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Scott Witthaus
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 20, 2017 at 10:40:28 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Compare the dates.
"


From the release of Premiere?

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Oliver Peters
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 20, 2017 at 11:01:24 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "From the release of Premiere?"

No, the dates of the two films mentioned in the links I provided.

[Scott Witthaus] "[Herb Sevush] "So according to one of it's better known proponents it's taken 5 years for X to be suitable for long form work. Well, I guess that is progress."

Took Premiere a lot longer, though."


Your contention was that it took Premiere a long time to be ready for long-form, yet in the examples cited, "Gone Girl" and "Focus", it was the film that was using Premiere that was in post ahead of the one using FCPX.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 21, 2017 at 2:54:11 am

[Oliver Peters] "Your contention was that it took Premiere a long time to be ready for long-form, yet in the examples cited, "Gone Girl" and "Focus", it was the film that was using Premiere that was in post ahead of the one using FCPX.
"


Well, just to be contentious, Randy U created Premiere YEARS before he created FCP X.

So the original statement is accurate in that case.

Also Adobe did the big Premiere Pro reboot years ahead of the FCP legacy to X reboot.

So the Premiere team had way more development time there as well.

It's only if you start BOTH teams clocks from the FCP X reboot that you could fairly argue that Premiere Pro beat FCP X into theatres.

I think that's splitting quite a few hairs along the way.

FWIW.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 21, 2017 at 4:37:18 am

You both (Bill, Oliver) are a bit off the mark.

Pro came out in 2003 and the first movie to grace the silver screen from it, AFAIK, was Dust to Glory in 2005. It was a documentary about the Baja 1000 off-road race done by Bandito Brothers (who where PPro advocates way back then). I remember reading about Dust to Gloy in Post magazine and wondering why the hell anyone would use Premiere...

Next notable release was 2010's Monster (first film from Gareth Edwards who directed the latest Godzilla movie and Rogue One) and 2012's Navy SEAL movie, Act of Valor (Bandio Brothers again). Gone Girl in 2014 was the first big Hollywood release. Was PPRo incapable up until it was used on Gone Girl? O was it because people who made movies generally thought that PPro was a steaming piece of crap? Was it a bit of both? Premiere as a brand has been around nearly as long as Avid yet it didn't gain acceptance into the TV and film community (or even the higher end web community) until after FCP Legend was killed. How's that for a left handed compliment, "Hey PPro, compared to this dead software you aren't too bad!"

Anyway, I have no idea where this is going anymore. Happy Friday everyone!


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Bill Davis
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 21, 2017 at 4:48:33 am

[Andrew Kimery] "You both (Bill, Oliver) are a bit off the mark."

I'll take it!

So Premiere has been in the "movie business" since the Bandito Bros gig in 2005.

FCP X for just 5 years.

Begging the question why with a decade head start - Apple did it so much faster with X?

(Chuckling while shuffling off with my head down to avoid the lobbed rocks!)

See you all later. G'nite.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 21, 2017 at 8:13:06 am

[Bill Davis] "So Premiere has been in the "movie business" since the Bandito Bros gig in 2005.

FCP X for just 5 years.

Begging the question why with a decade head start - Apple did it so much faster with X?

(Chuckling while shuffling off with my head down to avoid the lobbed rocks!)"


Not quite sure I follow Bill. If we were to start the clock with Dust to Glory then that's two years after PPro launched and Focus came out fours years after X launched. If we include FCP Legend in this talk then why is X, now 5.5yrs into its life cycle, so far behind in this metric compared to Legend at a similar point in its life?

If we start the clock on PPro with Gone Girl and you ask why did it take PPro so long, I think I brought up part of that already in my previous post. Was it because PPro wasn't technically capable of handling a project like a Hollywood feature film? Was it because people just thought it was crap because they heard it was crap? Was it both?

I used one of the last versions of Premiere (not Pro) and compared to FCP it was crap. If you owned a Mac there was really no reason to choose Premiere over FCP (and the creative community is very Mac centric, as you know). This is why when Adobe launched PPro in '03 it was Windows only. There wasn't a big enough Mac market to make the endeavor worthwhile. It wasn't until 2007 that the Mac version came back (and it was for Intel Macs only). I'm sure not having to make a separate PPC version just for Apple drastically lowered the cost to make it cross platform. Even then though, FCP Legend was just getting stronger and stronger and Avid was still Avid, so again, no reason at all to look at PPro.

One of the best things to happen to Premiere Pro was for Apple to yank FCP 7 from store shelves. That forced FCP users to look at other NLEs (many for the first time in a long time, if ever) and low and behold Premiere wasn't really the hulking pile of crap FCP users thought it was.


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Steve Connor
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 21, 2017 at 10:05:13 am

[Andrew Kimery] "I used one of the last versions of Premiere (not Pro) and compared to FCP it was crap"

I think you're being too kind to Premiere in calling it "crap"!


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Oliver Peters
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 21, 2017 at 4:25:47 pm

[Bill Davis] "Well, just to be contentious, Randy U created Premiere YEARS before he created FCP X.
So the original statement is accurate in that case.
Also Adobe did the big Premiere Pro reboot years ahead of the FCP legacy to X reboot.
So the Premiere team had way more development time there as well. "


[Andrew Kimery] "You both (Bill, Oliver) are a bit off the mark.
Pro came out in 2003 and the first movie to grace the silver screen from it, AFAIK, was Dust to Glory in 2005. I...
...Next notable release was..."


You are both right, depending on how you want to argue the timeline. And so is Scott. However, just to clarify my point, I was really comparing the relative starting points of Premiere Pro CC and Final Cut Pro X.

Premiere/PPro has gone through numerous iterations in 25 years. The version that Randy developed was a completely different animal. It was largely a multimedia editor and not an NLE, per se. Think PowerPoint/Keynote for a/v files. IIRC, that ended at 4.2 and after that he was out of the development team. The subsequent versions were Premiere 5-6, which were an awful lot like FCP 1.0, without Randy's participation. Although many would consider that a crude application compared with Media Composer at the time, I actually onlined/graded a 1-hr PBS documentary in 2003 that had been offline-edited by a station editor using Premiere 5.5. I conformed/tweaked/graded it in Avid DS and audio post was in Pro Tools, so even in that form, the hooks to the outside world were there. Then came Premiere Pro, CS and CC.

I would consider Premiere to have gone through four major iterations to date:
Premiere up to 4
Premiere 5-6
Premiere Pro up to CS6
Premiere Pro CC

Likewise, I would consider Final Cut to have gone through four, as well:
FCP 1-7
FCPX 10.0
FCPX 10.1-10.2
FCPX 10.3

These are somewhat arbitrary divisions, but they are based on significant architectural and feature changes that make each change a very different application from the previous version. It could be that there were really more iterations within FCP 1-7, but I'm not counting feature changes/additions. I'm just thinking of changes that fundamentally altered the application or how it was/is used.

Regarding feature films and Premiere Pro in recent years, Fincher's team shifted to Premiere Pro for several reasons:
FCP7 was dead
Kirk Baxter had already been cutting on Premiere Pro
Tight integration with After Effects
Adobe's willingness to embed software engineers within the production

Judging by things I've heard on and off the record, the most pain-free feature film experiences with Premiere have been the work the Bandito Brothers have done, as well as with the Coens' team on "Hail, Caesar!". Of course, the teams behind the films that have been cutting on FCPX ("Focus", "Whisky Tango Foxtrot", "Voice from the Stone") are also happy with using X.

So ultimately, it's tough to call true bragging rights for any of this. All productions have pain-points and the teams somehow make it work regardless. Each company can legitimately point to successes and we users benefits from the challenges encountered and fixed along the way.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 21, 2017 at 4:42:09 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "If we were to start the clock with Dust to Glory ....
...If we start the clock on PPro with Gone Girl ....."


That's part of the problem. We view these timelines based on Hollywood releases. This is a skewed perspective, but one that everyone can easily recognize. And so we continue to use these benchmarks. In fact, in all of these cases, someone, somewhere has been cutting an international feature, long-form TV documentary, or indie feature way before any of these highly visible titles. Heck, I cut an indie feature on FCPX 10.09 before "Focus", but it has yet to get distribution. Such is life.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Steve Connor
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 21, 2017 at 10:10:53 am

[Bill Davis] "See you all later. G'nite."

Hope you enjoyed "The Roast of Bill Davis" :)


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Bill Davis
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 22, 2017 at 12:19:39 am

[Steve Connor] "Hope you enjoyed "The Roast of Bill Davis" :)"

Sounds lik a perfectly awful menu item!

This beefy dish is presented seriously overcooked in a simmering broth of hyperbole - with way too much spice - and a thick, all too developed semi teflon-like skin.

Order something else.

Seriously.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Martin Curtis
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 21, 2017 at 11:50:32 am

Aussie zombie flick Undead (2003) was edited using Premiere by the Spierig Brothers. Effects were done in AE. A thoroughly enjoyable movie.


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Scott Witthaus
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 21, 2017 at 9:47:33 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Your contention was that it took Premiere a long time to be ready for long-form, yet in the examples cited, "Gone Girl" and "Focus", it was the film that was using Premiere that was in post ahead of the one using FCPX."

I think my point was more that Premiere was around a lot longer before anyone trusted it for feature work, correct?

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Bill Davis
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 20, 2017 at 4:42:43 pm

This deserves a response.

I've known Mads and Ryan Velin since NAB last year.

They have successfully deployed X on shows that Metronome produces. Hour long episodic shows , even COOKING shows (imagine that!) - the very type of shows you have long opined that X wasn't capable enough to do.

Well some years back, instead of imagining how a thing "might" work - they actually investigated it, analyzed it, selected it, and then made it work. Delivered series to air with it effectively and now are delighted to find that something big changed yesterday to make it work even better.

Sorry that wasn't news about anything you use. But it wasn't.

It was news for those of us who use FCP X. Which is why I posted it here - in the forum about FCP X.

So trying to spin this as "now it finally works" is unadulterated BS and a bit "sour grapy" IMO

And I suspect that deep down, you know that Herb.

FWIW.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 20, 2017 at 5:17:52 pm

[Bill Davis] "And I suspect that deep down, you know that Herb."

I suspect part of Herb's snark is in that you purposefully left off Mads last line about the performance improvement in the timeline (initially I had wondered why you didn't provide a link to the article where the comment was made). You could have acknowledged the performance issue and highlighted that Apple fixing it is proof positive that Apple listens to its customers that might have more challenging projects than most, and is continuing to advance FCP X for all users.


[Bill Davis] "So trying to spin this as "now it finally works" is unadulterated BS and a bit "sour grapy" IMO "

From a comment below the one Mads made, Stefan Sundlöf said, "This is the most important update so far for us who work in longer formats. I've waited over five years for this."


Don't paint FCP X as all unicorns and pixies and other people will probably stop pointing out that those creatures don't exist.


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Oliver Peters
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 20, 2017 at 6:21:20 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Don't paint FCP X as all unicorns and pixies and other people will probably stop pointing out that those creatures don't exist."

Just to add to that. I was just now converting an FCPX short film for a friend to XML and AAF for further audio and video post. The director cut it and used X, because that's what he knows, but my friend wants to do color correction in Resolve and possibly final edit tweaks in Premiere.

The FCPX project "appears" to be fine. Yet the XML through XtoCC was completely unusable. Resolve interpreted the FCPXML OK (I think), but can't find one clip. I have now idea whether the AAF through X2Pro is correct until the Pro Tools guy checks in. The XML out of Resolve is also useless (we haven't generated new Resolve media yet).

My point with all of this is that FCPX is fine as a closed ecosystem, but every time I have to go out of it to the larger post world, I have to hold my breath. More so than with either Premiere or Media Composer.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Steve Connor
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 20, 2017 at 6:30:35 pm

Just checked with a couple of projects that I have that are over 90 mins and there IS a noticeable difference in speed and responsiveness. However it wasn't actually that bad before the update, certainly not unusable!


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Andrew Kimery
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 20, 2017 at 6:34:40 pm

Have you tried comparing notes with Shane Ross? I think he's finished 3 or 4 documentaries in Resolve that were cut in X. Maybe you two can become the Dynamic Duo of X to Resolve! ;)


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Bill Davis
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 20, 2017 at 7:50:32 pm

[Oliver Peters] "More so than with either Premiere or Media Composer"

Well sure.

Traditional track based systems map to other traditional track based systems easier than a Roles based system can..

I would have thought that was kinda obvious.

The point of X breaking away from that was to add fundamental new capabilities into the mix that a track based system was never designed to allow?

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 21, 2017 at 1:23:01 am

[Bill Davis] "Traditional track based systems map to other traditional track based systems easier than a Roles based system can.. "

Actually no, that's not the issue at all. The problem I'm seeing is that each clip only exists on the translated timline for a few frames, with large gaps in between. Or cases where the clip was renamed in X and in the translation, links to the actual media file was lost, since the file has a different name. Or no linking whatsoever with compound and synchronized clips.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Michael Gissing
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 21, 2017 at 1:06:05 am

[Oliver Peters] "My point with all of this is that FCPX is fine as a closed ecosystem, but every time I have to go out of it to the larger post world, I have to hold my breath. More so than with either Premiere or Media Composer."

This has been my real world experience since switching to Resolve full time a few years ago. XML from all systems and audio AAF or OMFs are always a breath holding matter from all NLEs. But X has been the most problematic. Sometimes it comes down to users not understanding why they have to be responsible for buying X2Pro or worry about how they have organised files and file naming protocols. But this happens in all NLEs.

The fact that experienced editors feel the same doesn't surprise me. No amount of denial by people who don't live an die daily in shared workflows alters this for me and many others in post finishing.


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Michael Gissing
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 21, 2017 at 1:17:56 am

[Bill Davis] "Traditional track based systems map to other traditional track based systems easier than a Roles based system can.. "

So X has a problem as all audio finishing systems (ProTool and Fairlight etc) are track based for a number of really important reasons. This merely reinforces the opinion of post finish people that X is less reliable in workflows other than your Bill where you seem happy to do everything within your NLE of choice.

Which makes it extra annoying when you attempt to brush aside real world concerns if it dares your premise that X is the alpha and omega. Just accept that some of us have perfectly reasonable things to still debate about X.


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Bill Davis
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 21, 2017 at 3:07:45 am

[Michael Gissing] "Just accept that some of us have perfectly reasonable things to still debate about X."

Michael. Nobody will ever stop you from using the same workflow that you've been using for so long.

It just baffles me why so many of you guys are so hostile towards those of us trying to find faster and more efficient ways to do those traditional things.

Again, NOBODY is taking away your workflow.

Why are you so hostile to ours? If you can't make a magnetic workflow do what you need - DONT USE IT. If I can, don't tell me I shouldn't or that I'm wrong.

Again, all I did was post a message from one professional facility manager in Europe that I know about how new FCP X update rocks for his team.

Nobody's going to come to your shop with a baseball bat and make you cut on X. Really. If any place you ever work in the future demands that, you'll have the same choice you've always had when a change comes along. Adapt or move on.

This is really not that scary or difficult.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Michael Gissing
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 21, 2017 at 3:14:56 am

[Bill Davis] "It just baffles me why so many of you guys are so hostile towards those of us trying to find faster and more efficient ways to do those traditional things."

Honestly Bill it baffles me why you think I am hostile to any editors choice of NLE. I am only hostile to ill informed comments and editors telling me that their NLE software doesn't have room for improvement. You seem hostile to the idea that things can get so much better for all NLE software and that X is without fault or issue. That's truly perplexing.


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Bill Davis
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 21, 2017 at 3:29:43 am

[Michael Gissing] "That's truly perplexing"

Dude, it's my brand around here. Has been for the past 6 years or so.

This forum started with an almost unified chorous of "Apple has massively screwed up the entire universe of editing forever."

I was often the lone (or at least a highly prominent member of a TINY minority saying " hold on, there's something kinda cool going on here."

Against a wave of voices going "it's ALL crap. - I felt one small voice saying it's ALL good was fair.

I learned that trying to be balanced" only works when the other point of view is equally balanced. It NEVER was. And it's still not.

Plenty of evidence in THIS precise thread that just saying anything positive about X still results in a mighty backlash about all its flaws.

Imagine if after I posted the thread starter - the only response had been "cool, glad they made your NLE faster today." FULL STOP.

Never going to happen here. So I feel my voice is still valuable.

😊

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Michael Gissing
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 21, 2017 at 4:01:53 am

[Bill Davis] "Imagine if after I posted the thread starter - the only response had been "cool, glad they made your NLE faster today." FULL STOP.
Never going to happen here. So I feel my voice is still valuable. "

If you didn't radiate sunshine and lollypops then play the victim every time someone rightly points out an area of improvement that you argue against, you might garner more respect. Your voice would be more valuable if your arguments were not so reactionary and one sided.

As this forum was started to specifically debate X then naturally we will debate strengths and weaknesses of X. A forum that just says "cool, glad they made your NLE faster today." FULL STOP - is not a debate forum.

With the fact that X keeps getting better, you really should be able to look back and think just maybe some of the past criticisms you argued so personally against have been justified. But no, you continually fight the concept that others may have valid criticisms. I am universally critical of some aspects of all NLEs. I even have criticisms about my favourite Fairlight and realise there is always room to improve software. So join the debate, don't fight it.


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Bill Davis
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 21, 2017 at 4:41:58 am

[Michael Gissing] " So join the debate, don't fight it."

The day these debates stay on topic, I'm all over that.

But you can't tell me that when I post a link about an unquestionable improvement in X - and the responses consistently have nothing to add about that specific improvement beyond "yeah, but this OTHER thing still sucks...." we can talk.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 21, 2017 at 8:12:58 am

[Bill Davis] "But you can't tell me that when I post a link about an unquestionable improvement in X - and the responses consistently have nothing to add about that specific improvement beyond "yeah, but this OTHER thing still sucks...." we can talk."

Kinda like how Walter mentioned PPro's integration with Adobe Stock (as well as other libraries) and you spun that into how unfair you think Adobe's licensing terms with photographers are? Or that it's 2017 and you still feel the need to point out that FCPX had skimming before PPro had hover scrub (2011 vs 2012)? And when Adobe added a proxy mode to PPro last year I'm fairly confident it was met with 'Hey, nice of Adobe to finally catch up' type comments.


That sword swings both ways in here.


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Bill Davis
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 22, 2017 at 12:46:54 am

[Andrew Kimery] "That sword swings both ways in here."

Absolutely.

When you have a sword swung AT you enough - it's traditional to learn to parry and swing one right back.

If somebody "jumps the topic" of a thread away from a noted positive development in one software camp - in order merely to point out a "non-related balancing deficiency" in response - explain please why it suddenly becomes inappropriate for me to do the exact same thing?

I'll wait.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 22, 2017 at 3:15:58 am

[Bill Davis] "When you have a sword swung AT you enough - it's traditional to learn to parry and swing one right back.

If somebody "jumps the topic" of a thread away from a noted positive development in one software camp - in order merely to point out a "non-related balancing deficiency" in response - explain please why it suddenly becomes inappropriate for me to do the exact same thing?"


The figurative sword isn't being swung at YOU, it's being swung at FCP X. And unlike an actual sword being swung at someone in real life, figurative swords on the Internet don't require a reaction. On the Interent not engaging in behavior you don't like is as easy as choosing to not engage in behavior that you don't like. Lead by example. Engage in the conduct you would LIKE to see in the forum instead of the conduct you DISLIKE seeing in the forum. Follow the Golden Rule.

I never said it was inappropriate for you to do the exact thing. I was pointing out that its hypocritical for you to complain about people doing XYZ when you yourself do XYZ. If you want to swing swords then by all means swing swords. Just don't complain about the sword fights while you perpetuate them.

Eye for an eye and we all go blind and all that...

If you post something cool about X and someone craps on X for something completely unrelated then just politely remind the person that this thread is about cool and if they want to talk about crap then they can start their own thread talking about crap. If the talk about crap continues then I'm sure you can ask Tim if he can spin crap off into its own thread since it has nothing to do with cool. I know we are the kings of branching discussions in here, but I think it's fine for the thread starter to ask for completely unrelated discussions to get spun off into their own threads.

I try not to derail threads like that, though I'm sure I have in the past because I'm not perfect, but I'll be more mindful of it going forward. It is lame to post something cool, and then have someone else drop in something completely unrelated and negative just because they want to be negative. If we make a better effort to curb such behavior (such has having those comments spun off into their own threads) then it will probably wither and die because we are denying the thread bomber their ability to thread bomb.

Just my 2 cents.


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Bill Davis
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 22, 2017 at 1:44:51 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "The figurative sword isn't being swung at YOU, it's being swung at FCP X."

Oh excuse me?

THIS....

"I suspect part of Herb's snark is in that you purposefully left off Mads last line about the performance improvement in the timeline"

...is pretty much YOU swinging your own invented "purposefully" word-sword directly at ME - after jumping to an incorrect assumption.

Excuse me if I have a bit of trouble, Andrew, with your about face and sudden quest to don the mantle of the wise neutral arbiter is this.

Ceasars wife, you ain't.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 22, 2017 at 3:56:52 pm

[Bill Davis] "...is pretty much YOU swinging your own invented "purposefully" word-sword directly at ME - after jumping to an incorrect assumption."

Once you finally clarified that you were quoting an older, private communication with Mads and not the public posting by Mads that all of us were referencing I thanked you for the clarification because it's not my intent put words in peoples' mouths or misattribute things.

How was anyone but YOU to know that Mads said something to you in private and then said the EXACT same thing in public with the additional comment of "Now we are actually ABLE to work in the timeline. Now the snappiness of FCPX also applies to us."? Everyone thought you were cherry picking Mads quote from FCP.co. It's not like it's beyond you to paint FCP X in an overly rosy light.

Again, you can act any way you please, but don't complain about the actions of others when you do the same thing yourself (and don't complain even more when your hypocrisy gets pointed out). Just own your actions and go with it.


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Bill Davis
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 23, 2017 at 3:43:47 am

[Andrew Kimery] "(and don't complain even more when your hypocrisy gets pointed out). Just own your actions and go with it."

Hypocrisy?

Good god, man - all I did was post a link to a high end facility editors direct experience with the tool this entire forum is supposedly about!

It wasn't me leading the brigade of - "yeah, but look at all the other stuff that still sucks about X.

It's like the forum is just loaded with participants deathly afraid that this thing will keep improving.

Hint: if advancements in X make you crazy - don't freaking use it.

But it's not OK in my book to have to turn a forum ABOUT FCP X into a place specifically hostile to it. Not when it works perfectly well for millions of editors.

I've already long since stopped inviting some of the brightest folks using it to stop by to discuss it in this forum - because the ones that I did just didn't want to waste their time with the constant bitching and negativity here.

If it's what the Cow wants - a Final Cut Pro X forum where every single positive comment about it must be aggressively challenged by default - well,good luck with that.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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andy patterson
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 23, 2017 at 5:39:21 am

[Bill Davis] "But it's not OK in my book to have to turn a forum ABOUT FCP X into a place specifically hostile to it. Not when it works perfectly well for millions of editors."

I don't see hostile people. Having said that this form is about debating the merits of FCPX compared to other NLEs. The forum functions as it should, not as you would like. If you don't want to hear comments and criticisms about FCPX and other NLEs this is not the forum for you. Having said that I posted a link below to the forum dedicated to FCPX editors that use it.

https://forums.creativecow.net/fcpx

[Bill Davis] "I've already long since stopped inviting some of the brightest folks using it to stop by to discuss it in this forum - because the ones that I did just didn't want to waste their time with the constant bitching and negativity here."

Once again this is a forum to discuss the merits of FCPX and other NLE. If they want to go to the FCPX forum the link is below.

https://forums.creativecow.net/fcpx

[Bill Davis] "If it's what the Cow wants - a Final Cut Pro X forum where every single positive comment about it must be aggressively challenged by default - well,good luck with that."

I think perhaps you do live in an alternate universe with pixies and unicorns as others have suggested. Having said that some could argue that you want this forum to be a place where all editors (Avid, Edius, Premiere) praise, honor and worship FCPX. That is not the purpose of this forum. I now you wish it was but once again the link below might do you some good.

https://forums.creativecow.net/fcpx


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Andrew Kimery
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 23, 2017 at 6:55:04 am

[Bill Davis] "Good god, man - all I did was post a link to a high end facility editors direct experience with the tool this entire forum is supposedly about!
"


This side discussion isn't about your original post and you know it. As previously stated, it's about the hypocrisy of complaining that other people do XYZ while also choosing to do XYZ.

[Bill Davis] "It wasn't me leading the brigade of - "yeah, but look at all the other stuff that still sucks about X."

But you willfully participate and perpetuate those types of exchanges because, and I quote, "When you have a sword swung AT you enough - it's traditional to learn to parry and swing one right back."

Revisiting my previous example, when Walter mentioned how Premiere has integration with stock photo libraries to help automate that process you replied with a comment about Adobe seemingly taking an unduly high percentage of each stock footage sale. It's a completely out of left field dig at Adobe. It would be you saying "Hey, aren't these new Lanes in X great?" and me replying, "I guess so... but don't you think it's unfair that Apple pays the workers that assemble iPhones in China so little?"

[Bill Davis] "If it's what the Cow wants - a Final Cut Pro X forum where every single positive comment about it must be aggressively challenged by default - well,good luck with that."

I think this is where Tim pops in and mentions all the traffic this place gets...

I really can't think of any place I've been where the relative merits of so many NLEs are broken down on a regular basis than here. There are plenty of forums, Facebook groups, mailing lists, etc., which all cater to their respective user/fan bases, but for critical thinking across the board I'm not aware of any other place like this forum.


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Steve Connor
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 21, 2017 at 10:09:52 am

[Bill Davis] "Plenty of evidence in THIS precise thread that just saying anything positive about X still results in a mighty backlash about all its flaws. "

Not really a "mighty backlash" Bill, usually no worse than your backlash when someone points out a missing feature in FCPX.

There's a lot of very interesting and positive discussion on here about FCPX from people with a whole range of workflows.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 21, 2017 at 5:23:24 am

[Michael Gissing] "The fact that experienced editors feel the same doesn't surprise me. No amount of denial by people who don't live an die daily in shared workflows alters this for me and many others in post finishing."

I use Resolve as a media prep, consolidate, and relinker for FCPX to color grade finishing (usually to Baselight). Resolve's problem is itself. Examining fcpxmls from Resolve shows errors and incorrectly written XMLs. Sometimes you can actually go in and fix the fcpxml, but with a lot of clips, it is extremely tedious. Also, there are certain things that work really well. Retiming is one of those, even speed ramps translate remarkably well between X and Resolve. Mixed frame sizes are sometimes a problem, though.

I had many more issues when doing the same process with Premiere. Fcpxml seems to be very robust for a new interchange language.

X2Pro on the audio side has always been really good (I use Logic to check the AAFs) and the newest update handles retiming well.

Maybe it's because I've tested the crap out of it, but fcpxml has been very successful for me. It is certainly the most accurate translations I have created and much less headache than xml.


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Michael Gissing
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 21, 2017 at 7:08:26 am
Last Edited By Michael Gissing on Jan 21, 2017 at 7:09:37 am

[Jeremy Garchow]"Maybe it's because I've tested the crap out of it, but fcpxml has been very successful for me. It is certainly the most accurate translations I have created and much less headache than xml."

I'm certainly not implying that Resolve is without issues. There are things that need to improve on their side of translation for sure. I think the issue I tend to have is in fact operator error. Most experienced editors who understand how to get a project from shoot to final post are not using X in my world. So those experienced editors are presenting projects that are in much better shape and they track down and pre fix issues.

X is not significant in my world as few editors still have embraced it so the X projects I get are often from inexperienced editors who just think they can dump a whole lot of files willy nilly on a drive, cut away and make a fcpxml without worrying about decompounding etc. So it is more complex than just a matter of which xml is being translated. But Oliver's observations match mine for whatever reason. Happy to accept that Resolve may have to take some blame as well.

Sorry to get off topic on this debate forum but it's actually normal.


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Oliver Peters
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 21, 2017 at 4:47:55 pm

[Michael Gissing] "But X has been the most problematic. Sometimes it comes down to users not understanding why they have to be responsible for buying X2Pro or worry about how they have organised files and file naming protocols. But this happens in all NLEs."

Agreed. This is why brain-dead list formats, like EDLs still exist. They are the easiest for humans to decipher when things go wrong and make the requisite fixes at the online edit stage. I realize offline-to-online is not where Apple's thinking is these days, but it's still very much a part of many daily workflows, even though tape is generally no longer in the picture.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 21, 2017 at 5:14:41 pm

[Oliver Peters] "This is why brain-dead list formats, like EDLs still exist. "

But they don't describe much of what is going on the timeline, therefore create even more work.


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Oliver Peters
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 21, 2017 at 6:03:58 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "But they don't describe much of what is going on the timeline, therefore create even more work."

While that's true in principle, it's not much of a factor in most commercials and long-form shows. There, the timeline is usually cuts & dissolves and effects are outboarded anyway as completed VFX elements. So, unless you do something stupid, like a build a timeline out of all compound clips, EDLs are just fine. Try going through a shop like Company 3 for grading without one. ☺

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 21, 2017 at 7:37:07 pm

Places in Chicago, including co3, will take xmls. Maybe it's the cold weather.

Sending me back a bunch of graded clips with an EDL isnt helpful, especially if I need to go to another NLE.

With EDL I lose everything about the edit, including positioning, filters, speed decisions and ramps and layers (tracks). EDL's make perfect sense for a linear environment.

xml retains a lot more information.

I also don't work for a studio, so the workflow is mine to wield.


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Oliver Peters
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 21, 2017 at 7:57:11 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Sending me back a bunch of graded clips with an EDL isnt helpful, especially if I need to go to another NLE."

I completely understand that. However in the old (6 years ago), FCP7 days (cough, cough) you'd send an EDL and clips. When you got the graded footage back, FCP7 would relink (often a forced relink) to the new media clips. Worked like a charm. Company 3 told me the reason they wanted an EDL is because they were using the Linux version of Resolve. Their internal system was set up to parse the EDL for this system. Hence no XMLs. In the case of Company 3 LA, this was also true for Avid edits, which I found quite funny at the time. FWIW - I also sent projects to LA Baselight houses and they were fine with both XML and AAF files.

[Jeremy Garchow] "I also don't work for a studio, so the workflow is mine to wield."

I don't work for a studio either, but I am expected to have my edits be compatible with others. I just find that harder to do with FCPX than with FCP7, Premiere Pro or Media Composer. And yes, I have all the various in-between tools. The most reliable seems to be X2Pro. XtoCC, in spite of IA's best efforts, still seems to have issues with complex FCPX projects.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 21, 2017 at 7:59:40 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "With EDL I lose everything about the edit, including positioning, filters, speed decisions and ramps and layers (tracks). EDL's make perfect sense for a linear environment. "

PS: also true. However, most of this doesn't translate correctly anyway, even with an XML. So you end up rebuilding, no matter what.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 21, 2017 at 10:06:56 pm

[Oliver Peters] "PS: also true. However, most of this doesn't translate correctly anyway, even with an XML. So you end up rebuilding, no matter what."

It doesn't with xmeml, but fcpxml translations to Resolve are spot on in terms of speed. I think this has to do with Resolve having very similar mechanics, but still, as mentioned before, the speed change translations to and from Resolve 12 are usually very seamless.

We shoot a lot of off speed from 180 - 3000 fps, and use speed ramps fairly often and the workflow between Resolve and X is really very good.

I don't think that Pr's version of xmeml is as robust as FCP 7 was. I, too, have weird issues when going to xmeml. This is another reason I like fcpxml over xmeml, because when the two apps use fcpxml, the translation is very accurate. Xmeml was never very good at speed change translations.


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Oliver Peters
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 22, 2017 at 12:11:55 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "but fcpxml translations to Resolve are spot on in terms of speed"

Agreed.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Brian Seegmiller
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 22, 2017 at 7:03:50 am

Oliver, those problems could be a Resolve issue, not an FCP X issue. My 2 cents.


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Oliver Peters
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 22, 2017 at 12:15:24 pm

[Brian Seegmiller] "Oliver, those problems could be a Resolve issue, not an FCP X issue. My 2 cents."

Which specific problems? Because part of what I mentioned wasn't with Resolve but with XtoCC. It's hard to follow the threading here.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Steve Connor
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 22, 2017 at 12:26:01 pm

[Oliver Peters] "It's hard to follow the threading here.
"


Start a new one?


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Bill Davis
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 20, 2017 at 7:44:40 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "I suspect part of Herb's snark is in that you purposefully left off Mads last line about the performance improvement in the timeline "

It's not a conspiracy guys.

Mads posted his Original opinion it in a slightly different form in a private group.
Our standard there is we never quote the discussions elsewhere without specific pernissiin.

I asked for and got that permission from him and quoted only a part of his original longer post. After words, he realized that others might be interested and adapted what I had originally seen in private - as a more public post - it went to Peters site - which is what you are now referring to.

That didn't exist in that form when I made my initial post.

Simple as that.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 20, 2017 at 8:58:03 pm

[Bill Davis] "It's not a conspiracy guys."

Thanks for the clarification, Bill.


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Herb Sevush
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 20, 2017 at 5:21:52 pm

[Bill Davis] "So trying to spin this as "now it finally works" is unadulterated BS and a bit "sour grapy" IMO

And I suspect that deep down, you know that Herb."



I didn't say "now it finally works," Mads did. If you have a problem with that phrase maybe you shouldn't have posted it. Given the other posts I see that this was a reference to something that had been lost in a recent update, a common occurrence in all software, and I understand it in context. On the other hand it was a little questionable to leave that bit of the quote out, gets one to wondering.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bill Davis
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 20, 2017 at 7:59:27 pm

See my other post.

That FCP.co story didn't exist when I made the original post you are alluding to.

I get that your preconception is that I'm happy to try to deceive people via selective quoting. But you are flat out wrong about that here.

I pulled the quote I posted here directly from Mads private communication. NOT the FCP.co story you imagined it came from.

Simple as that.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Tangier Clarke
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 20, 2017 at 7:14:46 pm

I can actually drag clips on the second storyline now without the spinning beachball showing up on my more-than-adequately setup iMac 5K with thunderbolt RAID attached.


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Ronny Courtens
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 22, 2017 at 7:57:01 pm

Allow me to put some things in the right perspective.

I can understand Mads' enthusiastic reaction to this update. It solves an issue for them that has been around since day 1 and that typically affected very complex timelines with tons of stacked connected clips. Obviously, the longer the timeline the more the problem was apparent. We have reported this issue, even sending complete projects with media over to Apple. I can only guess why it has taken until now to see a solution. Probably because the root of the issue required some changes in the fundamentals of FCP X which were completed with 10.3, but also because the problem was only really apparent with very specific types of productions and not with long-form projects in general.

Metronome has gone from 3 FCP X seats in 2012 to 50+ seats now (at the expense of Avid), and the "drag-lag" issue as we started calling it has not stopped them from delivering over 300 hours of content each year. This means they have always been ABLE to do their work, but not in the best circumstances.

A few months ago another major production company started complaining about the issue. They sent us their projects and we noticed their timelines (long-form docs with loads of stacked titles, graphics and connected multichannel audio) were very similar to the ones we saw from Metronome. So I started calling everyone in Europe who works on long-form with FCP X to ask if they had similar issues. Only a few of the 50 companies I called confirmed that they did experience the drag-lag issue in the same way as the guys from Metronome. I guess that's why Mads says that "many would argue that the problem does not exist". So I asked everyone who had problems to send their projects to Apple, and apparently this has resulted in getting the issue on the priority list. I got confirmation from all of them now that the new update has indeed solved the problem for them. All is well that ends well, up to the next update.

- Ronny


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Oliver Peters
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 22, 2017 at 11:51:28 pm

[Ronny Courtens] "Allow me to put some things in the right perspective."

Thanks for a very clear explanation.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Tim Wilson
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 23, 2017 at 12:07:29 am

[Oliver Peters] "[Ronny Courtens] "Allow me to put some things in the right perspective."

Thanks for a very clear explanation."


My thanks also, Ronny!

Best,
Tim


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Erik Lindahl
Re: 10.3.2 Is out - WOW review from a huge X facility in Europe.
on Jan 26, 2017 at 9:42:15 pm

Great to hear progress for FCPX but I've lost hope that Apple will ever fix proper, delay-free video output over SDI. This omission renders the app hard to or even impossible for us to use in an online / finishing senario.


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