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A warning about Catalina and the 2019 Mac Pro

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Herb Sevush
A warning about Catalina and the 2019 Mac Pro
on Jan 28, 2020 at 1:25:35 am

Yes, I did it. I bought a new Mac Pro. It arrived last Friday and I figured that by the end of this week I would be posting a glowing review along with a discussion about various upgrades and configurations.

But that is not going to happen.

Tomorrow , after 3 straight days of formatting, installing, re-installing, re-re-re installing and a lot of phone calling and e-mailing, I'm going to be boxing this elegant computer up and sending it back to Cupertino.

The issue is Catalina and my workflow, which is Premiere Pro based, with a whole lot of very specific plug-ins that help speed me on my way. So be advised that those working with FCPX will probably have nothing to fear (but that's only probably.)

The combination of Catalina, Ppro and my specific plug-ins are apparently explosive. It's possible I could run Ppro stripped down with Catalina but why would I want to? The whole idea of dropping 10K on a computer is to speed up my work, and the lack of plug-ins would slow me down more than anything the nMac Pro can offer.

I was not quite foolish enough not to consider this possibility; my fallback plan was to take the clone of my 2013 trashcan and make it the startup disk and then clone it's Mojave OS onto the 2019 Mac Pro. It's a technique I have used with Mac's for over ten years. I'd work with Mojave until all the bugs had been ironed out and then upgrade the nMP to Catalina at that point.

However,

It turns out that you can't start up the 2019 Catalina MP with any external disk that is also not Catalina (and that's not easy to do either.) There is no way to wipe the drive of the 2019 Mac Pro and install an earlier OSX. None. It has something to do with Catalina and something to do with the security chip in the 2019's boot drive.

So after 3 days of trying, and 3 nights of crying, it's box it up and wait for UPS.

This has not been a pleasant few days. Catalina has a unique bifurcated (that's"2-way" for the rest of us) folder structure that I think is part of the reason it behaves so badly with older software that wasn't written for it. Even using Finder is a bit of a challenge. I hope it's worth it for the future because for now it's a major.

PITA.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Shane Ross
Re: A warning about Catalina and the 2019 Mac Pro
on Jan 28, 2020 at 3:15:40 am

I thought these were able to be rolled back to Mojave. That's not the case?

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Herb Sevush
Re: A warning about Catalina and the 2019 Mac Pro
on Jan 28, 2020 at 3:19:33 am

[Shane Ross] "That's not the case?"

Not the case. Apparently any new computer that comes with Catalina installed is very difficult to roll back to Mojave, including new Macbook Pros and Imacs, but as far as I can tell it's currently not possible at all with the 2019 Mac Pro.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Oliver Peters
Re: A warning about Catalina and the 2019 Mac Pro
on Jan 28, 2020 at 1:49:49 pm
Last Edited By Oliver Peters on Jan 28, 2020 at 1:55:00 pm

A friend of mine went through similar issues. He was migrating his drive from a 2013 Mac Pro to the new Mac Pro. Ultimately 6 days of hell, but it was finally all resolved. He had to first update his trash can to Catalina and then create a new Time Machine back-up of it. Then that could be used to "recover" onto the new Mac Pro.

Did you check 64-bit compatibility with all of what you had installed before beginning this process?

Personally I would only advise doing a fresh start on this machine, de-authorizing and then re-authorizing any licensed third party apps and plug-ins. This is a new machine and the T2 security chip introduces a lot of gotchas.

As far as OS roll-back, you generally have never been able to do that with Macs. At least not in a supported way. It's usually the case that the earliest you can go back to is the current OS at the time that machine was shipped. This would be Catalina for the new Mac Pro. Catalina changes the OS structure for better security so that apps cannot be modified by malware.

FWIW - Avid still has not qualified its software for Catalina.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Herb Sevush
Re: A warning about Catalina and the 2019 Mac Pro
on Jan 28, 2020 at 2:51:05 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Did you check 64-bit compatibility with all of what you had installed before beginning this process?"

Yes.

[Oliver Peters] "Personally I would only advise doing a fresh start on this machine, de-authorizing and then re-authorizing any licensed third party apps and plug-ins. This is a new machine and the T2 security chip introduces a lot of gotchas."

Eventually I tried that. Still had problems with Ppro that I'm guessing is tied to one or more of my Plug-Ins, they might be 64 Bit but that doesn't mean their aren't any bugs.

[Oliver Peters] " He had to first update his trash can to Catalina and then create a new Time Machine back-up of it. Then that could be used to "recover" onto the new Mac Pro."

I will give that a shot before sending it back. thanks for the tip.

[Oliver Peters] "As far as OS roll-back, you generally have never been able to do that with Macs. At least not in a supported way."

Supported or not, in the past if I used Carbon Copy Cloner I could clone a drive from an older machine and then use the clone as a startup disk on a new piece of Apple hardware. Once I was up and running I could then use CCC to clone the external to the internal startup drive and voila, new machine with rolled back OSX. This is now no longer possible, he says after wiping up his tears.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Oliver Peters
Re: A warning about Catalina and the 2019 Mac Pro
on Jan 28, 2020 at 3:04:12 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Once I was up and running I could then use CCC to clone the external to the internal startup drive and voila, new machine with rolled back OSX. This is now no longer possible, he says after wiping up his tears."

I'd bet that's one of the things Catalina is trying to clamp down on. Although it might still be possible through Time Machine or with an upcoming version of CCC (speculation only). Both CCC and SuperDuper are still working out the kinks of Catalina compatibility.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Eric Santiago
Re: A warning about Catalina and the 2019 Mac Pro
on Jan 28, 2020 at 4:51:30 pm

[Oliver Peters] "I'd bet that's one of the things Catalina is trying to clamp down on. "

This seems the be the norm even in the Windows world.
Part of my day job deals with Digital Signage and one of the stumbling blocks is the Windows 7 to Windows 10 upgrade.
We were just told that our old practice of taking a new player node (small form PC) and using a clone drive (Win7 was the compliant OS at the time) to update for our digital signage is illegal.
Now we are forced to pay a fee for each unit that we've cloned.
Any new player with Windows 10 has to stay put from now on.

Not sure if this is all related.


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Robert Withers
Re: A warning about Catalina and the 2019 Mac Pro
on Jan 29, 2020 at 3:39:03 am

Thanks for the word, Herb.
I have had my "Install Mojave" USB standing by for a new imac or Macbook so will take the time to check if either has Catalina on it.
Robert

Robert Withers

Independent/personal/avant-garde cinema, New York City


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Martin Jaeger
Re: A warning about Catalina and the 2019 Mac Pro
on Jan 28, 2020 at 4:27:42 pm

Any chance you could expound on which plugins you suspect were giving you issues? Setting up a new Mac Pro today so.. Thanks!



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Herb Sevush
Re: A warning about Catalina and the 2019 Mac Pro
on Jan 28, 2020 at 5:04:06 pm

[Martin Jaeger] " which plugins you suspect were giving you issues? "

I'm still working on it, will post something if I ever figure it out.

[Martin Jaeger] " Setting up a new Mac Pro today"

If you're not using it with FCPX you have my sympathies.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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greg janza
Re: A warning about Catalina and the 2019 Mac Pro
on Jan 28, 2020 at 5:45:17 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I'm still working on it, will post something if I ever figure it out."

Maybe just list the plugins that you use regularly. Without knowing which plugins are in your workflow it's hard to determine if your problems will affect others.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/tmprods
tallmanproductions.net


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Herb Sevush
Re: A warning about Catalina and the 2019 Mac Pro
on Jan 28, 2020 at 9:08:11 pm

[Martin Jaeger] "Any chance you could expound on which plugins you suspect were giving you issues"

I'm up and running but there are still a few plug-ins I haven't re-installed and I'm guessing one or more of these is the culprit.

Before I get to naming names I must say here that Catalina is an all devouring monster, especially if you're running Adobe Apps. Dyamic link between Ppro and Audition (which is a huge part of my workflow) is broken and has been broken for months. Adobe upgrades come and go, but still no answer in sight. This is NOT GOOD !!! and has nothing to do with the computer you're on - its a Catalina/Adobe issue.

I use a Blackmagic Ultrastudio Mini Monitor to get SDI to my Flanders Scientific broadcast monitor - but the latest BM drivers doesn't work for me, I had to roll back to the 10.8 driver.

Izotope RX 7 was eventually installed, but not without a fight. First make sure you have the latest download, 7.0.1 (not 7.01) then you have to restart OS X in safe mode (hold down the shift key when starting) then keep manually setting the permissions to Read-Wright for all possible choices and in all possible locations, then restart again in safe mode and keep trying to install till it finally takes.

Uninstalled (as of yet) Plug-ins:

Mocha Pro 5
Cine X tools
Colorista IV
Waves Vocal Rider

I'm having problems getting the Waves installer to work on Catalina but I think it's solvable.

Colorista IV was easy to load yesterday and I don't think it caused any crashing, but I'm going one plug-in at a time today (tonight?)

Mocha Pro 5 is on the highly suspect list, but I don't know if I have the latest version, so maybe that will help.

Cine X is my guess for the culprit, but that would be a shame. Cine X allows you to do "punch ins" on a finished ProRes file from within your native editor. For anyone who has to deal with QC deliveries of ProRes material it's a miracle app, but it will be the last thing I test.

So as of right now the biggest problem is with Adobe, and I might just have to go back to working on the trashcan while I play with this in my "off" (when is that?) hours.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bob Zelin
Re: A warning about Catalina and the 2019 Mac Pro
on Jan 28, 2020 at 11:21:13 pm

I guess this can't be more unrelated (well, I could tell you what I had for lunch today) -
but this is what I went thru today. And it made me feel exactly like everyone else on this post, including Herb.
I was doing a new QNAP network attached storage system for a client today that is using Davinci Resolve, and Resolve uses the PostgresSQL 9.5.4 database (ok - think of the plug in that you HAVE TO HAVE to continue working - same thing here) -
And so to see this, you need to run a program called PGAdmin on your Mac or Windows computer so you can see the databases for Resolve -
This is the LATEST release for Windows for PGAdmin -
https://www.pgadmin.org/download/pgadmin-4-windows/
You will see that this is dated January 9th, 2020, but it's for Windows 7. Now, these guys know a LOT more about computers than most of us know. Did anyone tell them that there is no more Windows 7 ? SO why do I care - because I need to run Davinci Resolve 16.1.2 with PostgreSQL 9.5.4

This is the insanity of our business. I feel for Herb more than you know. You HAVE to use these plug ins, and well - the plug in companies just don't keep up, and the "major manufacturers" just don't care.

Sorry for getting off topic - but it's the same thing.

Bob

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Herb Sevush
Re: A warning about Catalina and the 2019 Mac Pro
on Jan 29, 2020 at 1:12:17 pm

[Bob Zelin] " You HAVE to use these plug ins, and well - the plug in companies just don't keep up, and the "major manufacturers" just don't care.
Sorry for getting off topic - but it's the same thing."


Your not off topic, that is the topic. I appreciate the sympathy but it's a pain we've all felt at one time or another.

Some good news, Mocha Pro, upgraded to the latest version is working fine.

I'm probably not going to even load Colorista IV, it has a couple of unique settings that I like, but Lumetri can handle my grading needs for now.

Waves Vocal Rider is still unable to configure on Catalina and if anyone knows of a similar app that works in Ppro I'd love to hear about it, as I've grown very fond of automatic gain riding in post.

Still haven't tried Cine X, I'm figuring it was the culprit of all my Ppro crashing, but I need to do some actual editing now on a stable platform. Will test it out over the weekend.

As of now the biggest problem is Adobe/Catalina/dynamic link broken. Major PITA, but only the strong survive ( I think Jerry Butler said that.)

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: A warning about Catalina and the 2019 Mac Pro
on Jan 29, 2020 at 1:08:03 am

[Herb Sevush] "Catalina has a unique bifurcated (that's"2-way" for the rest of us) folder structure that I think is part of the reason it behaves so badly with older software that wasn't written for it. "

APFS (the newish disk format that Catalina requires, as opposed to HFS+ that earlier Mac OSes used) allows what amounts to multiple partitions or Volumes under one “Container” that is presented to the user (i.e. Macintosh HD and Macintosh HD - Data).

There is now the system side, and the data side. The system side is read only, data side, is not. So yes, if the plugins aren’t ready for the structure, that makes sense that they don’t work. And cloning an hfs drive to an APFS drive also isn’t possible. Bombich has a great write up of it: https://bombich.com/kb/ccc5/working-apfs-volume-groups

It’s part of then new security features of the macOS, something that we as Mac users were not privy to since we used to be such a small part of the computing populace. It is weird to have to “allow” and “accept” so many actions that we used to take for granted.


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Rich Rubasch
Re: A warning about Catalina and the 2019 Mac Pro
on Jan 29, 2020 at 1:17:43 am

Wow, am I glad I didn't bite the bullet to get a new Mac Pro....I am still fighting to work between High Sierra and ElCapitan to keep DVD Studio Pro working! It's kind of crazy...I have 19 years of legacy project with clients who still play DVDs and I need a system to be able to run DVD Studio Pro and other legacy apps and plugins.

I want to move forward but sometimes want to move back.

It's a little nutty, but so glad I didn't drop $15,000 on a Mac that won't work in my workflow...my iMacPro is working swimmingly.

Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media Inc.
Video Production, Post, Studio Sound Stage
Founder/President/Editor/Designer/Animator
http://www.tiltmedia.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: A warning about Catalina and the 2019 Mac Pro
on Jan 29, 2020 at 1:23:07 am

[Rich Rubasch] " have 19 years of legacy project with clients who still play DVDs and I need a system to be able to run DVD Studio Pro and other legacy apps and plugins."

Just keep a separate 2009-2012 MacPro tower up and running for this sort of work. Leave it frozen. Then get a new machine of some sort for current software or update your iMac Pro. But stop at Mojave for now.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: A warning about Catalina and the 2019 Mac Pro
on Jan 29, 2020 at 3:08:07 am

As an antithetic, I’ve been using a 16” MBP side by side with an old MacPro tube.

The 16” blows the trash lid off the MacPro Tube and it’s hard to go back to the Tube (in X and Pr). I would hope the new Mac Pro would be even better.

That being said, there’s some weirdness with SMB shares that I am experiencing that may or may not be due to Catalina and I don’t want to try and roll the laptop back to Mojave as it shipped with Catalina.


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Herb Sevush
Re: A warning about Catalina and the 2019 Mac Pro
on Jan 29, 2020 at 2:43:10 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "It is weird to have to “allow” and “accept” so many actions that we used to take for granted."

Yes, this is very noticeable in Catalina. Apple is trying very hard to make us secure and sometimes it's driving me batty.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Paul Dickin
Re: A warning about Catalina and the 2019 Mac Pro
on Jan 29, 2020 at 8:29:03 pm
Last Edited By Paul Dickin on Jan 29, 2020 at 8:36:38 pm

OT:
These videos (on a high-end music production topic) shows where the new Mac Pro comes into its own......
Pt 1:




Pt 2:




His earlier videos show his previous (dual) trash can TB outboard gear/cable clutter.


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David Lawrence
Re: A warning about Catalina and the 2019 Mac Pro
on Jan 29, 2020 at 11:13:23 pm

A colleague of mine had your exact experience, Herb. Setup was a nightmare that took over a week. Catalina borked a couple key plugins, and worst of all even though the machine runs silent and stays cool internally, it's pumping so much heat into his studio that he'll have to install AC for the hot summer months. He was seriously considering sending it back and getting another iMac Pro for half the cost.

Eventually he got the plugin working with the vendor's support. His workflow is 80% FCPX, the rest being AE and Ps so he's mostly okay in that department. He's decided to keep it, but it was a very dicey start. Glad you got Mocha Pro running. Version 5 is super old and you should be on 2020 at this point.

Me, I'm sticking with my Hackintosh for now which still performs comparably to a mid-tier nMac Pro in my particular workflows and has costed a lot less to build and maintain. Plus I can stay on Mojave if I want to.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research

linkedIn: http://lnkd.in/Cfz92F
vimeo: vimeo.com/dlawrence
web: propaganda.com
facebook: /dlawrence
twitter: @dhl


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Drew Lahat
Re: A warning about Catalina and the 2019 Mac Pro
on Jan 30, 2020 at 6:23:31 am

I'm sorry to hear that "early adopter" pains beleaguer this system. The whole point of putting up with the MP's cost is so you can hit the ground running and not spend days dealing with wrangling software configurations. With that amount of hassle you could've migrated everything to Windows by now... (and I'm saying that as someone who's been all-Mac for 10 years, and still is.)

For the rest of us, the natural conclusion is simply that it's too early to update to Catalina - and since the MP only supports Catalina & up, it's too early to buy the MP.

As for myself, I used to be the facility engineer of a post-house, ACMT, and maintained Macs all around Hollywood... and now, running my own little outfit, I'm very happy with my 2010 cMP workhorse. ☺ Kitted with plenty of RAM, USB3, and a modern AMD GPU, it happily runs Resolve, CC2020 and crunches 4K.
The pace of technology updates is so frantic these days, I think one of the worst things you can do is follow all of Apple's updates. It's about maintaining the system the works for your work, not the other way around.


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Joe Marler
Re: A warning about Catalina and the 2019 Mac Pro
on Jan 30, 2020 at 3:11:40 pm

[Herb Sevush] "It turns out that you can't start up the 2019 Catalina MP with any external disk that is also not Catalina (and that's not easy to do either.) There is no way to wipe the drive of the 2019 Mac Pro and install an earlier OSX. None. It has something to do with Catalina and something to do with the security chip in the 2019's boot drive. "

Some of the problems you encountered might happen with any T2-based machine with Secure Boot enabled. If so you might have encountered this on an iMac Pro or a MacBook Pro 16. If you have certain backup/restore/migration workflows from the pre-T2 era, this can be a painful experience -- but it's not necessarily the Mac Pro.

There have been issues with T2 security since day one. When the iMac Pro was released, Apple support would often recommend you erase the entire machine then re-install macOS to resolve a problem. Yet on a T2 machine with default security, that could result in a non-bootable machine. After erasing the machine it then disallowed network-based macOS install from Apple's own servers. You also couldn't boot from a clone -- whether CCC, Super Duper, or anything else. The only solution was return the machine to Apple. I happened to have a Time Machine backup (which the T2 security system trusted), otherwise my iMac Pro would have been returned to Apple to "un-brick" it. This is not supposition but the result of many hours on the phone with Apple escalation support.

This may have been mitigated in more recent MacOS versions but the lesson I learned was immediately disable Secure Boot on all T2 machines.

There are still issues with this, and to install SoftRAID you must disable Secure Boot:

http://downloads.owc.com/softraid/mac/SoftRAID%20Installation%20with%20Cata...

In a recent Mac Geek Gab Podcast, Mike Bombich (developer of Carbon Copy Cloner) discussed various issues caused by APFS and Catalina. This included how APFS, encryption, and Catalina affect space consumption, migration, and backup/restore.

https://www.macobserver.com/podcasts/macgeekgab-796/


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Gianluca Mazzarolo
Re: A warning about Catalina and the 2019 Mac Pro
on Jan 30, 2020 at 7:12:55 pm

Imho, that's just another good reason not to use SoftRAID...


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Gianluca Mazzarolo
Re: A warning about Catalina and the 2019 Mac Pro
on Jan 30, 2020 at 7:09:34 pm

Not sure if it might work in the latest VMs, but you could install a VM, install MacOS Mojave into it, and then just install FCPX + your older plugins there. Worth trying if you really need Mojave.

Or of course try to find alternatives to those plugins.


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steve Zavo
Re: A warning about Catalina and the 2019 Mac Pro
on Jan 30, 2020 at 9:43:06 pm

FWIW, my modest experience with 2020 MacPro:
Did ALL fresh installs.
No OSX backwards compatibility allowed.
Super Duper to clone a back up OSX drive but here is a little screwballling
around necessary (just follow the on screen prompts or ask apple care) for your FIRST clone.
I too have NO functioning dynamic link connection MacPro to Audition.
I have no plug ins so my machine hums.
I run my old machine (OSX High Sierra) on the MacPro 2020 with
screen sharing to copy files or operate obsolete software.
That's all for now, best of luck !!



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Erik Lindahl
Re: A warning about Catalina and the 2019 Mac Pro
on Feb 2, 2020 at 12:11:34 pm

First reading this I figured the MacPro 2019 was “broken” in some way but really it’s, sadly, a case of how Apples - or rather any hardware and software works in this day and age.

You can’t ever down-grade a minimum system required for a given hardware. One could chime this as poor design but that’s always been the case. I’d never expect to be able to fall back to an older system or software version with a new machine. It sucks for sure but it’s a fact of our current world.

The fact that a lot of apps would break with macOS 10.15 I also figured was a given. If it ain’t 64-bit and really officially supported by system X, one shouldn’t expect it to work. Again, I just take this for granted - test before you update or upgrade.

It’s ironic that a lot of people moving to the Mac Pro 2019 says “it’s worth the cost since the system is up and running in a matter of hours” where clearly this isn’t the case for everyone (including the person who started this thread). That’s harsh for the people caught in situations where app X or Y won’t work anymore or where hardware Z just isn’t updated for the new guy in town. Sadly this has more or less always been the case.

For me the transition to the Mac Pro 2019 will be a clean install and a re-evaluation or all the software including plugins I use. The nMP 2013 will be frozen in time on the system it’s currently on as I know what works and doesn’t on it. Moving to the new hopefully only takes a day or two but I will most defiantly keep “the old” until I feel 100% confident in the new hardware and software.

One huge “gotcha” also seems to be the T2 chip and that you should disable most of its security features for doing things “like you have” (booting from external HDDs for example).


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Oliver Peters
Re: A warning about Catalina and the 2019 Mac Pro
on Feb 2, 2020 at 1:34:02 pm

[Erik Lindahl] "It’s ironic that a lot of people moving to the Mac Pro 2019 says “it’s worth the cost since the system is up and running in a matter of hours” "

That's been my experience now with several iMac Pros (not Catalina) at work and just yesterday again with a new, loaner 16" MBP (with Catalina) that I have in for a review. But these have never been migrations. Only clean installs. Log in with my various account IDs and install the Apple App Store software, Adobe CC apps, FxFactory plug-ins, etc. Then a few extras, like Resolve, Chrome, and some plug-ins that require individual installations and authorization. Up and running in half a day.

But yes, Catalina is a major change that does require evaluation. For example, Media Composer editors shouldn't go Catalina yet. All pertinent software must be updated if possible. Some simply won't be compatible and you won't be able to use them. Plus Catalina is different in lots of little way. I find its "do you want to allow.." prompts to be the most annoying of any OS to date (including Windows). But once these are set, they seem to stick.

Like many of these changes, we'll grumble and complain, eventually adopt, and then move on.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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