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Apple sues RED over RAW Patents

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Craig Seeman
Apple sues RED over RAW Patents
on Aug 15, 2019 at 7:41:34 pm

Apple sues RED over RAW Patents

https://www.eoshd.com/2019/08/apple-sues-red-as-lawyers-petition-for-cancel...



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Bob Zelin
Re: Apple sues RED over RAW Patents
on Aug 15, 2019 at 11:45:23 pm

hysterical.
wow - Apple is really becoming evil. Its more than System Integrity Protection. It's more than
obsoleting all their old hardware. They just want to screw everyone that is not an official "partner".
I guess a Trillion dollars is just not enough profit. I guess they forgot that without Adobe and AJA and AVID, (and now Blackmagic and Sonnet) - that no professional would take Apple seriously.

What is wrong with these people.

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: Apple sues RED over RAW Patents
on Aug 16, 2019 at 12:01:35 am
Last Edited By Oliver Peters on Aug 16, 2019 at 1:01:48 pm

I wouldn't be so quick to blame Apple.

There are quite a few reasonable cases being made that RED's patents should never have been granted in the first place. If you read through the actual brief (following the links in the EOSHD post to the PDF), Apple's expert's position comes down to the claim that RED's patent is based on two or three other prior patents. It will be up to a judge to decide.

Why this started in May is anyone's guess. Remember that RED was in favor with Apple a while back, because there was a RED Raven bundle on the Apple web store. We don't know whether either party was playing hardball or not and this is the result.

In any case, it may well be a contributor to why we haven't seen much progress with ProRes RAW implementation. But as you know, ultimately these things get settled quietly.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: Apple sues RED over RAW Patents
on Aug 16, 2019 at 5:20:32 pm

I welcome the entire thing.
More clarity will help everyone.

A LOT of people who are in a position to know seem to feel that some of the original RED patents were too broad and are restricting the industry's ability to move forward.

Others feel Apple is now somewhat hoist on it's own "keep your less advanced tech off our shiny platform" petard. (cough, cough, Flash, etc. )

I suspect the truth, as usual, is someplace in the middle.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Shawn Miller
Re: Apple sues RED over RAW Patents
on Aug 16, 2019 at 5:09:16 pm

Maybe this will break Red's stranglehold on in-camera, compressed raw capture... would that be so bad?

Shawn



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Oliver Peters
Re: Apple sues RED over RAW Patents
on Aug 16, 2019 at 7:36:37 pm

Well... If their patent is deemed to be valid, then RED should have every right to vigorously defend it. We'll see how this shakes out.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Michael Gissing
Re: Apple sues RED over RAW Patents
on Aug 17, 2019 at 6:28:33 am

And the result will have serious implications for Blackmagic as well. I suspect they have designed their compressed RAW around the RED patents with the sidecar data and pre processing so they might be better placed than Apple with ProResRAW.


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: Apple sues RED over RAW Patents
on Sep 9, 2019 at 10:58:46 am
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Sep 10, 2019 at 9:42:25 am

[Bob Zelin] "Apple is really becoming evil."

Because they're trying to open up an important option for everyone (which doesn't even include themselves at this point) and therefore are challenging an absolutely ludicrous patent? Fascinating logic.


[Bob Zelin] "They just want to screw everyone that is not an official "partner"."

You DO know that RED is an "official partner", right? E.G. having made an FCP plugin and having the Raven selling in the Store exclusively? How much more "partner" are you looking for? RED selling Macs?


[Bob Zelin] " a Trillion dollars is just not enough profit"

Apple has never made a trillion profit, sorry. Unless you want to count the entire last 30 years. But then I'm pretty sure it's a lot more.


[Oliver Peters] "There are quite a few reasonable cases being made that RED's patents should never have been granted in the first place. "

Exactly. Patenting "writing compressed sensor data to a disk in a camera"?? They basically used existing tech, strung it together as a package, patented that package and are now suing others over it. That's pretty much the textbook definition of a patent-troll. The only thing that they uniquely contributed was their own take on the (again, already existing) wavelet compression algorithm. That's like if I patented "rolling a transportation vehicle with four wheels over gravel at 30mph" and was granted it, then stand by the road stopping people. It's absolutely ludicrous.


[Oliver Peters] "it may well be a contributor to why we haven't seen much progress with ProRes RAW implementation"

What else? Clearly a LOT of camera OEMs are interested. Why would they prefer to play money into AtomOS' hands and not just implement the recording internally if they weren't in fact simply afraid of having to deal with RED and licensing demands if they do? Apple's requirements for implementing it certainly couldn't be holding them back. Especially since many of them are ALREADY recording other flavors of ProRes. Not exactly much of a stretch there.

By the way… Apple isn't suing RED. They are petitioning to have the patent revoked. Big difference.

- RK

____________________________________________________
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Dom Silverio
Re: Apple sues RED over RAW Patents
on Sep 11, 2019 at 7:23:42 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "Because they're trying to open up an important option for everyone (which doesn't even include THEMSELVES) and therefore are challenging an absolutely ludicrous patent? Fascinating logic."

I'm not sure if the intent is "open up.... for everyone" but more of ProRes RAW options for Apple.
The patent is no more ludicrous than a rounded corner icon.


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Tom Sefton
Re: Apple sues RED over RAW Patents
on Sep 12, 2019 at 6:37:56 am

Why is the parent so ludicrous? Hasn’t it stood before against Sony and canon, and blackmagic? Isn’t it why sony had to ‘reach an agreement’ with red about raw acquisition?

I’m really very curious at this case, as it seems as though if Apple lose the motion to strike, they are left with the option of buying red or writing them a big cheque to continue with their plans. When you read about the early work of Graham nattress, it does absolutely seem as though there is a field of work linked to a hardware solution that has been patented, so hearing people call the patent ludicrous makes me question what the grounds for patent are. Oh - the rounded corner icon - that’s an analogy Jim Jannard used when defending in 2013 against canon I believe? Nicely done.

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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Oliver Peters
Re: Apple sues RED over RAW Patents
on Sep 12, 2019 at 11:59:54 am

[Tom Sefton] "I’m really very curious at this case, as it seems as though if Apple lose the motion to strike, they are left with the option of buying red or writing them a big cheque to continue with their plans"

I don't think this really affects Apple directly at all UNLESS they have future plans to implement a RAW codec into the iPhone.

More immediately it affects any camera manufacturer who wants to record a compressed movie file of a Bayer-pattern RAW signal in-camera at 23.98fps or faster. As long as you are recording to an external device (Atmos or Codex, for instance) or an uncompressed RAW (like ARRIRAW) or an image sequence (like cDNG), then you are generally OK, AFAIK.

So, Apple's interest would be in getting camera manufacturers to adopt ProRes RAW in-camera, since the patent would seem to impede that.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: Apple sues RED over RAW Patents
on Sep 12, 2019 at 12:45:39 pm
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Sep 12, 2019 at 3:57:14 pm

[Oliver Peters] "As long as you are recording to an external device (Atmos or Codex, for instance) […] or an image sequence (like cDNG), then you are generally OK, AFAIK."

Erm… unfortunately no, that's the problem. Otherwise AtomOS wouldn't have been bullied into paying RED "licensing fees", for whatever those are even for. For reading a raw sensor data? For using (an entirely different) compression? For writing data to a disk? Because unless I'm missing something that RED themselves can actually lay intellectual claim to beyond that, that's essentially all that the patent covers (simplistically put of course). Those things in combination.

So, again, unless someone can point to something RED in fact contributed intellectually to the procedure that can be considered unique enough and that others such as AtomOS are doing, the patent is ludicrous imho and merely born of ignorance at a time where I guess no one really understood what it was they were patenting i.e. the ramifications.

And if cDNG is not effected, then why did BMD recently remove it from their cameras if not because of RED looming over them? Granted, it's even more useless now than it ever was, with all the newer RAW formats, even BMD's, but they didn't exactly make some die-hard DNGing purists happy.

- RK

____________________________________________________
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Oliver Peters
Re: Apple sues RED over RAW Patents
on Sep 12, 2019 at 5:23:56 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "And if cDNG is not effected, then why did BMD recently remove it from their cameras if not because of RED looming over them?"

No, BMD removed it in order to facilitate/market/encourage the use of their own BMD RAW codec. Other cameras, like DJI still record cDNG without issue. Of course, I'm not quite sure of the technicalities about BMD RAW and why they haven't run afoul of the same patent. Or maybe that simply hasn't happened yet.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: Apple sues RED over RAW Patents
on Sep 12, 2019 at 5:50:53 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Other cameras, like DJI still record cDNG without issue."

Also, FWIW, the DJI Zenmuse X7 records ProResRAW in-camera, not externally. Which then, of course, gets us back to Apple's challenge. Or so I would guess.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Tom Sefton
Re: Apple sues RED over RAW Patents
on Sep 12, 2019 at 7:46:07 pm

Not sure how you can class something as a scam when clients receive a working product. The major scam was surely jinnimag buying cheaper parts, asking for help on forums on how to modify firmware and then selling them to an established client base at a similarly inflated price that didn’t have to account for the r&d of the original product. Jinni are literally the equivalent of the guy who rings your customers up and offers to do your work for less money while bad mouthing your professional abilities - just appalling.

Perhaps evaluate how expensive a codex drive is that uses no different technology?

However I’m not solely defending red - the PR from that debacle was terrible and it has eroded trust from many potential buyers; the Komodo launch and the next 6 months are a key time for them to thrive or just survive.

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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Tim Wilson
Re: Apple sues RED over RAW Patents
on Sep 13, 2019 at 7:34:14 pm

[Tom Sefton] "Not sure how you can class something as a scam when clients receive a working product. "

Exactly.

Apologies for administrative intervention on this thread, but words have meanings. If a company IS behaving fraudulently -- promising one thing and delivering another, or not delivering at all, etc. -- then we encourage people to call them out.

But using the "S" word to simply denote stern disapproval (eg, subscription models are a s***) is an explicit violation of our Terms of Service that protect both companies and individuals from namecalling.

As a result, there are a couple of posts I've turned off. Sometimes I wind up turning off replies in cases like these, but this time, the replies had such good stuff that I felt it was worth keeping them around.

As usual, please take up any reactions to this either with me directly (if you don't have my email address, just use the Contact link), or in our Letters to the COW Team forum, rather than on this thread.

Returning you now to our regularly scheduled programming.

Regards,

Tim Wilson
Editor-in-Chief
Creative COW


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Tom Sefton
Re: Apple sues RED over RAW Patents
on Sep 12, 2019 at 6:05:29 pm

unfortunately personal opinion about whether a patent is ridiculous doesn’t really make the grade for whether it can be ignored...

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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