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The Cheese Grater is back

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Craig Seeman
The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 3, 2019 at 6:23:45 pm
Last Edited By Craig Seeman on Jun 3, 2019 at 6:27:47 pm

The Cheese Grater is back with 8 PCIe slots.

The Kremlinologist can examine the FCPX screenshot.

Afterburner. Things that make you go hmmm.


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Steve Connor
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 3, 2019 at 6:33:17 pm

Cue “it’ll be too expensive” and “it doesn’t run Nvidia cards”

BTW what’s that screen!!!

Quite a bit more detail than expected


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Dom Silverio
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 3, 2019 at 6:36:04 pm

It looks great!
Can't believe Apple basically admitted that the 6,1 was a bad design. Too much form over function. Basically, Cube 2.0.
I doubt you can use NVidia cards. Unfortunate.
But 8 PCIe slots should make many happy.


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 3, 2019 at 6:43:59 pm

LOL. You guys beat me to it! Yes, the cheesegrater is back and so is the ICE card (Afterburner card). But equally stunning is the 6K Retina display. Promises 1,000 nits full screen, full brightness, indefinitely. 1600 nits peak. Pretty damned impressive WWDC keynote.

MP starts at $5999 available in Fall.

Pro display starts $4999 available in Fall.

BTW - other interesting news is that the iPad gets its own OS.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Dom Silverio
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 3, 2019 at 6:45:22 pm

1000 nits would have been impressive last year. Several gaming monitors and consumer TVs area already hitting it. But 1600 peak is nice though not a standard.


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 3, 2019 at 6:52:38 pm

[Dom Silverio] "1000 nits would have been impressive last year. Several gaming monitors and consumer TVs area already hitting it."

You missed the important part. Full screen, full brightness, sustained. Everyone else dims under those conditions.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Shane Ross
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 3, 2019 at 7:11:45 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Pro display starts $4999 available in Fall."

$1000 stand sold separately.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Steve Connor
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 3, 2019 at 7:27:56 pm

[Shane Ross] "$1000 stand sold separately.
"


I wonder how much the wheels are? :)


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Steve Connor
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 3, 2019 at 7:31:52 pm

More details https://www.apple.com/mac-pro/


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 3, 2019 at 7:38:15 pm

Also the display:

https://www.apple.com/pro-display-xdr/

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Bob Woodhead
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 3, 2019 at 9:41:46 pm

Forget the wheels, I'm gonna put mine atop a Roomba that's programmed to follow me around the house as I edit 3 8K streams using Magic Leap VR goggles.

Might need to move to a ranch house though...

"Constituo, ergo sum"

Bob Woodhead / Atlanta
CMX-Quantel-Avid-Premiere-FCPX-AFX-Crayola
"What a long strange trip it's been...."


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Andy Field
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 4, 2019 at 6:14:37 pm

Now that they've fixed the MacPro -- can Apple also admit their newer MacBook is not an improvement over the 2014, 2015 models?

Need more ports (does anyone make a USB Drive that nativly works with these ports?) , a keyboard writers can actually use rather than feel as though they are pounding on concrete....lose the solution in search of a problem touch bar.....enough space to cool the high powered processors...

I haven't bought a macbook pro in 4 years because the newer models don't do the trick

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Craig Seeman
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 4, 2019 at 6:18:33 pm

[Andy Field] "Need more ports (does anyone make a USB Drive that nativly works with these ports?)"
Yes, many newer drives use USB-C. I just bought a Samsung 2TB T5 SSD. Comes with USB-C to USB-C and USB-C to USB-A cables. I also bought a CFast2.0 card reader which also including both cables.



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Andy Field
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 4, 2019 at 9:26:47 pm

sadly i (and i would guest most of us) have a bucket load of regular old drives with client projects to constantly update. I don't want thinner and thinner macbooks - i want them with a real usable keyboard (hey forth time's the charm) that feels like typing not banging your fingers against cement) and ports that don't require you to pay more for what they used to include for free...and of course carry around all those widgets

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Craig Seeman
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 4, 2019 at 10:09:49 pm

[Andy Field] "sadly i (and i would guest most of us) have a bucket load of regular old drives with client projects to constantly update."

Do you still expect Macs to include Firewire or SCSI? At what point can old technology go away? At what point to the find keeping such ports impacts overall hardware development when all that's needed is an adaptor. What about new purchasers who don't need all the legacy? At what point do you migrate stuff on older drives as needed.

I use a "drive dock" and put "raw" drives in it and copy over things as needed.

For older drives in cases, I've occasionally pulled them apart so I don't have to deal with a bunch of older technology and just work with my drive dock.

It's actually very easy to connect anything from Firewire to flavors of USB to Thunderbolt but I really don't need a mess of cables when I go somewhere as I don't carry old enclosed drives with me.

And the new MacPro certainly has reasonable connectivity, much more so than a MBP.



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Andy Field
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 4, 2019 at 10:49:30 pm

so how do you explain the New Mac Pro cheese grater including those ports (USB) ? It's made for pros who need them -- the new laptops ignore those needs

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Bill Davis
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 4, 2019 at 11:57:54 pm

You folks are incredible.

You have the option to own a one inch thick 3 pound device that now contains ALL the power of a $150,000 video editing suite from thirty years ago - and that lasts all day on a battery, and all you can do is carp about how the keyboard maybe doesn't "feel right" and how it doesn't have EVERY SINGLE connection port you might possibly prefer?

Jesus. Entitlement much?. It's embarrassing.

This era's equipment is miraculous and consistently FREAKING AMAZING. Period.

And if you aren't appreciative about where we are today — compared to where ANYONE wanting to edit video was for ALL OF HISTORY before this era — I"m sorry, but IMO people are starting to sound like a bunch of whiny loons.

Yeah, my laptop doesn't type with the "feel" of my original Smith Corona Typewriter either.
I got over that pretty fast.

Just sayin'

😊

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Andy Field
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 5, 2019 at 7:07:06 pm

for those of us who write and edit for a living, a useful keyboard is essential - when you're just typing how great FCP is, it may not be as important.

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Bill Davis
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 6:46:09 pm

[Andy Field] "for those of us who write and edit for a living, a useful keyboard is essential - when you're just typing how great FCP is, it may not be as important.
"


Then please point out for me the keyboards that have not been "useful" (your word, not mine) that have shipped with ANY NLE including laptops in the past 10 years.

I'll wait.

My point is that the level of silly carping about insignificant details has risen to insane levels lately.

Don't like the "feel" of a particular keyboard? Bring your own. ALL computers have USB ports that accept ALL keyboards. This is NOT that difficult. Period.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Andy Field
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 10:26:29 pm

Bill -- it's amazing that no one's opinion other than yours seem to matter --

Keyboards shipping with NLE's? I'm talking about spending 2 to 5 grand on a piece of equipment that doesn't get a basic component right - something they were able to do for 20 years prior

add a keyboard? Sure if you do everything sitting a dark room all day - many of us are on the road 24/7 editing in restaurants, hotel rooms, cramped airline seats....and writing scripts ....not going to hand Apple cash for a proven lousy Keyboard just so they can continue shaving millimeters off their machines.

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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greg janza
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 10:32:41 pm
Last Edited By greg janza on Jun 6, 2019 at 10:33:27 pm

There's a certain amount of irony that I'm working on a new imac pro at my current gig but using a Das keyboard and Logitech mouse due to the fact that both the mac keyboard and mouse are ergonomic disasters.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/tmprods
tallmanproductions.net


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Doug Metz
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 11:03:46 pm

[greg janza] "There's a certain amount of irony that I'm working on a new imac pro at my current gig but using a Das keyboard and Logitech mouse due to the fact that both the mac keyboard and mouse are ergonomic disasters."

I don't mind the mice, but it would not be hyperbole to say that I hate the new keyboards and trackpads.

Doug Metz

Dalton+Anode


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 11:07:39 pm

[greg janza] "but using a Das keyboard and Logitech mouse due to the fact that both the mac keyboard and mouse are ergonomic disasters."

But that's a personal preferences that others don't necessarily share. The shop I'm at has 9 stations (MP, iM, iMP) - all with stock Apple keyboards/mice. In fact, I had purchased a set of regular Logitech mice to go around and everyone has gravitated back to the Apple mice. The only thing extra is a tablet that the main AE designer uses.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Dom Silverio
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 5, 2019 at 9:19:11 pm

How is it entitled if you are going to pay for it?????


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Craig Seeman
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 5, 2019 at 12:51:32 am

As I said in my post


And the new MacPro certainly has reasonable connectivity, much more so than a MBP.

MBP is designed for portability and one might not be carrying around a bunch of legacy drives.
I'd rather carry my USB-C SSD drive.



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Michael Gissing
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 3, 2019 at 9:47:14 pm

[Steve Connor]"Cue “it’ll be too expensive” and “it doesn’t run Nvidia cards”

Thanks Steve. That saved a lot of us the time to make the obvious comments. However, if you are a pro you can afford it. I did ten years ago with the last MacPro. NVIDIA is a deal breaker for me and I'm sure many Resolve users will be torn.

It looks fantastic and well done Apple for building a grunt glam box. I wonder if it comes with a rack mount kit or will we just saw the handles off? (Just kidding)


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Andre van Berlo
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 3, 2019 at 9:54:27 pm

There'll be a rack mount version of the new Mac Pro so no sawing needed :-)


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Shawn Miller
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 3, 2019 at 10:50:23 pm
Last Edited By Shawn Miller on Jun 3, 2019 at 10:55:51 pm

[Michael Gissing] " NVIDIA is a deal breaker for me and I'm sure many Resolve users will be torn."

The same is probably true for a lot of people doing 3D work. The most popular 3D renderers require CUDA cores, or benefit heavily from dual processor machines. This is why so many motion graphics and 3D artists have left the Mac platform... for Redshift, Arnold, Octane and other Nvidia or CPU hungry applications.

Shawn



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Martin Curtis
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 5, 2019 at 2:24:29 am

[Shawn Miller] "This is why so many motion graphics and 3D artists have left the Mac platform... for Redshift, Arnold, Octane and other Nvidia or CPU hungry applications."

Mac's back.😎

“Tapping into the amazing performance of the new Mac Pro, we’re excited to develop Redshift for Metal, and we’re working with Apple to bring an optimized version to the Mac Pro for the first time by the end of the year. We’re also actively developing Metal support for Cinema 4D, which will provide our Mac users with accelerated workflows for the most complex content creation. The new Mac Pro graphics architecture is incredibly powerful and is the best system to run Cinema 4D.” — David McGavran, CEO, Maxon

“OTOY is incredibly excited about the all-new Mac Pro and how it will empower our users. Octane X — the 10th anniversary edition of Octane — has been rewritten from the ground up in Metal for Mac Pro, and is the culmination of a long and deep collaboration with Apple’s world-class engineering team. Mac Pro is like nothing we’ve seen before in a desktop system. Octane X will be leveraging this unprecedented performance to take interactive and production GPU rendering for film, TV, motion graphics and AR/VR to a whole new level. Octane X is truly a labor of love, and we can’t wait to get it into the hands of our Mac customers later this year.” — Jules Urbach, CEO and founder, OTOY


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Shawn Miller
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 5, 2019 at 4:52:42 pm

[Martin Curtis] "[Shawn Miller] "This is why so many motion graphics and 3D artists have left the Mac platform... for Redshift, Arnold, Octane and other Nvidia or CPU hungry applications."

Mac's back.😎

“... The new Mac Pro graphics architecture is incredibly powerful and is the best system to run Cinema 4D.” — David McGavran, CEO, Maxon

“... Mac Pro is like nothing we’ve seen before in a desktop system...” — Jules Urbach, CEO and founder, OTOY"


Sometimes, I wonder if Apple writes these press releases themselves. Aside from the gag worthy marketing hype, I think this is good news for Mac users who were reluctant to switch OS's to run these applications. However, I do wonder how many people will be willing to pay double to run C4D, Redshift or Octane on a Mac Pro instead of an Nvidia based workstation. ☺


Shawn



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 5, 2019 at 5:38:44 pm

[Shawn Miller] "However, I do wonder how many people will be willing to pay double to run C4D, Redshift or Octane on a Mac Pro instead of an Nvidia based workstation. ☺"

I am trying to figure this out. Are you suggesting a similar 28 core Windows workstation with 4 top spec NVIDIA GPUs, a similar computer monitor, and all the SSDs and RAM is going to be half the cost? That's truly crazy if it's true. "No one" will buy this Mac Pro, if you need all that power. It just doesn't make sense.


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Shawn Miller
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 5, 2019 at 6:34:30 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "[Shawn Miller] "However, I do wonder how many people will be willing to pay double to run C4D, Redshift or Octane on a Mac Pro instead of an Nvidia based workstation. ☺"

I am trying to figure this out. Are you suggesting a similar 28 core Windows workstation with 4 top spec NVIDIA GPUs, a similar computer monitor, and all the SSDs and RAM is going to be half the cost? That's truly crazy if it's true. "No one" will buy this Mac Pro, if you need all that power. It just doesn't make sense."


Nope, I'm not suggesting anything of the sort. To get near or equal performance out of a GPU bound raytracer like Redshift or Octane, you don't need a machine as highly spec'd as the new Mac pro. I run Redshift, Octane and Arnold on three machines; one with dual 20 core Xeons, one with dual 8 core Xeons and one with a single 4 core Xeon. The two dual proc machines have identical graphics cards, so Octane, Redshift and Arnold GPU (beta) perform more or less the same, even though one has more CPU cores and faster SSDs. The single core machine has an Nvidia M3000M so runs the same applications slower. I guess we'll have to see how these renderes run Metal vs Cuda, but for around $3k US, you can build or buy a very fast workstation for GPU rendering. If you're doing CPU bound rendering, you'll still have to pay a premium for high core count Xeon processors, but on Windows and Linux you can at least get dual processors.

Shawn



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Bill Davis
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 6:53:23 pm

[Shawn Miller] "I guess we'll have to see how these renderes run Metal vs Cuda, but for around $3k US, you can build or buy a very fast workstation for GPU rendering. If you're doing CPU bound rendering, you'll still have to pay a premium for high core count Xeon processors, but on Windows and Linux you can at least get dual processors.

Shawn
"


This WILL be interesting.

Word on the street is that the next Rev of FCP X (which everyone guesses will likely show up at the Creative Summit sometime in Oct/Nov.) won't have many (if any) new features - but will be a massive effort from the dev team to re-write huge swaths of the core program code to be optimally Metal compliant.

The thinking is that this alone will yield massive benefits for ALL X users - and, of course - help the FCP X truly shine on the coming New MacPros.

We'll see.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 6:57:30 pm

[Bill Davis] "The thinking is that this alone will yield massive benefits for ALL X users - and, of course - help the FCP X truly shine on the coming New MacPros. "

I doubt this would ever happen, but one interesting play would be if Apple automatically bundled its pro applications (FCPX, Motion, Compressor, Logic Pro X) with the purchase of a Mac Pro ☺

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 7:10:41 pm

Interesting idea Oliver.

That would be interesting.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Shawn Miller
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 7:43:41 pm

[Bill Davis] "The thinking is that this alone will yield massive benefits for ALL X users - and, of course - help the FCP X truly shine on the coming New MacPros. "

That doesn't help me at all... BUT, if my applications of choice (C4D, Arnold, Redshift, Houdini) run significantly faster on the Mac Pro than equal or less expensive Windows or Linux alternatives, then my first Mac may be on the horizon. Then, I won't have any incentive NOT to try FCPX 😉

Shawn



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Stevan del George
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 9, 2019 at 8:59:32 pm

I'm happy that Redshift and Octane (primarily used in the motion gfx world) are supporting Metal. But I worry that the new Arnold GPU renderer will become the industry standard in the future for a couple of reasons ...
- Arnold's use is growing rapidly in vfx houses (the heir apparent to V-Ray). Redshift is popping up in a couple of tv vfx shops, but Octane has almost zero presence in vfx. When ramping up for bigger gigs gfx shops often need to hire vfx artists and knowing/using different renderers is often a big, expensive problem. (You haven't lived till you've seen an Art Director's eyes roll back into his head when a freelancer tells him you can't render a good looking metal logo unless you use V-Ray.)
- The Arnold GPU renderer will have a CPU renderer counterpart - this is actually a more important reason. (Redshift and Octane do not have CPU versions). This limitation has been a big reason VFX houses have been hesitant to incorporate GPU renders. GPU renderers are great at the beginning of a job (look dev, design, refinement, etc.) but typically cause a bottleneck in the last phase of the job when renders need to be at full, final quality. At that point being able to send the render to a massive farm (local or cloud) is often a big deal.
(WETA is a notable exception to this, they wrote a GPU version of their in house CPU renderer to get the best of both worlds a couple of years ago.)


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Shawn Miller
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 10, 2019 at 1:14:40 am

[Stevan del George] "I'm happy that Redshift and Octane (primarily used in the motion gfx world) are supporting Metal. But I worry that the new Arnold GPU renderer will become the industry standard in the future for a couple of reasons ..."

I wouldn't be so sure. I agree with most of your points regarding the final quality of GPU renders, adoption by large VFX houses and all, but let's not forget Renderman XPU (using CUDA and Optix). ☺ It's already one of the most heavily used renderers in the industry, and it has a GPU/CPU workflow that gives artists fast previews while allowing for high quality output to CPU based render farms. I also think that Arnold will face more competition from Redshift (when and if) all of those Solid Angle perpetual licenses expire. For those like me who are not 3DSMax or Maya users, the thought of maintaining an Autodesk subscription for Arnold seems unattractive.

But getting back to the subject of the thread, I plan to keep a close eye on the performance of the new Mac pro. If Redshift using Metal is a LOT faster than Redshift using CUDA, then I'll have to give Apple serious consideration when looking at my next hardware refresh in three or four years. If OTOH, Arnold is still (mostly) CPU bound and I can still keep my perpetual license current via maintenance, then a Windows based PC will still be the stronger option.

Shawn



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Stevan del George
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 10, 2019 at 5:40:57 pm

AFAIK Renderman is still king at the "animation" houses that do CGI features - Pixar, Dreamworks, etc. But its use at VFX houses has been dwindling for years. As of last year, I believe it was still the primary renderer at ILM and MPC but all the other major VFX houses I know of use something else as their "primary" renderer. (Worth noting though that, IME, the big shops have a large collection of software that gets used here and there when it's useful, what I'm referring to is the primary software most often used and best integrated into their primary in-house pipelines.)

The other "context" to my orignal comments, that I didn't express well ... I was thinking of the artist market is this way ...
- Independent freelance artists who are completely stand-alone entities, deal with end clients directly, deliver final product directly to end clients, etc. For these artists Redshift and Octane are fantastic options.
- Artists who mostly work in large shops and occasionally work from home, also freelance at-home artists who regularly work in conjunction with large shops. For these artists staying current with "industry standard" software and renderers is very important. (I would also include in this group freelance at home artists whose current status is considered a stepping stone to getting a staff position at a large shop.)


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Shawn Miller
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 10, 2019 at 6:26:41 pm

[Stevan del George] "AFAIK Renderman is still king at the "animation" houses that do CGI features - Pixar, Dreamworks, etc. But its use at VFX houses has been dwindling for years. As of last year, I believe it was still the primary renderer at ILM and MPC but all the other major VFX houses I know of use something else as their "primary" renderer. (Worth noting though that, IME, the big shops have a large collection of software that gets used here and there when it's useful, what I'm referring to is the primary software most often used and best integrated into their primary in-house pipelines.)"

Ahhh, that makes sense. Truthfully, I didn't know that Renderman was in such decline outside of the biggest shops...

[Stevan del George] "The other "context" to my orignal comments, that I didn't express well ... I was thinking of the artist market is this way ...
- Independent freelance artists who are completely stand-alone entities, deal with end clients directly, deliver final product directly to end clients, etc. For these artists Redshift and Octane are fantastic options."


I'm not a freelancer, but that more or less describes my situation.

[Stevan del George] "- Artists who mostly work in large shops and occasionally work from home, also freelance at-home artists who regularly work in conjunction with large shops. For these artists staying current with "industry standard" software and renderers is very important. (I would also include in this group freelance at home artists whose current status is considered a stepping stone to getting a staff position at a large shop.)"

That also makes sense, and in that context, I can see your trepidation about Arnold becoming the de facto standard for commercial VFX work. Thanks for the perspective!

Shawn



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Andrew Richards
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 4, 2019 at 7:44:17 pm

[Michael Gissing] "NVIDIA is a deal breaker for me and I'm sure many Resolve users will be torn."

The PCIe slots will fit NVIDIA cards just fine, the problem is the lapsed driver support recently. The ball is in NVIDIA's court now to resume releasing drivers for macOS. Maybe with a proper Mac Pro on the horizon they will see enough renewed demand for them.

Best,
Andy


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Ricardo Marty
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 4, 2019 at 8:06:55 pm

At the moment Not exactly. from nvidia:

https://www.extremetech.com/computing/284260-why-wont-apple-support-nvidia-...





From Apple:


https://appleinsider.com/articles/19/01/18/apples-management-doesnt-want-nv...







Hope this will change. Competition is better. I even hope apple makes a less expensive tower then more competition,



Ricardo Marty


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 5, 2019 at 3:10:34 am

[Michael Gissing] "NVIDIA is a deal breaker for me and I'm sure many Resolve users will be torn.
"


Blackmagic Design
“DaVinci Resolve is the world’s most advanced color correction and online editing software for high-end film and television work. It was the first professional software to adopt Metal and now, with the new Mac Pro and Afterburner, we’re seeing full-quality 8K performance in real time with color correction and effects, something we could never dream of doing before. DaVinci Resolve running on the new Mac Pro is easily the fastest way to edit, grade and finish movies and TV shows.” — Grant Petty, CEO, Blackmagic Design

Are people really going to pay $50,000 for one single computer though?

https://9to5mac.com/2019/06/03/maxed-out-mac-pro-cost-estimate/


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Michael Gissing
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 5, 2019 at 3:24:42 am

[Jeremy Garchow]"Are people really going to pay $50,000 for one single computer though?"

Grant is probably saying what Apple want to hear while they sort RAW format licensing from each other (hopefully).

For $50,000, I'm confident I could build a more powerful PC with NVIDIA cards that would outperform the maxed MacPro with AMD cards running Resolve.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 5, 2019 at 3:37:14 am

[Michael Gissing] "Grant is probably saying what Apple want to hear while they sort RAW format licensing from each other (hopefully)."

Here's all the quotes. It seems a little more than just flowery language.

https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019/06/pro-app-developers-react-to-the-new-...

I guess we will know in the "fall".


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Michael Gissing
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 5, 2019 at 5:01:23 am

[Jeremy Garchow] " It seems a little more than just flowery language."

I recall Grant being effusive about the trashcan.


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Steve Connor
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 5, 2019 at 6:45:57 am

[Michael Gissing] "For $50,000, I'm confident I could build a more powerful PC with NVIDIA cards that would outperform the maxed MacPro with AMD cards running Resolve.
"


How on earth could you be confident about that when we have NO idea about how the new Mac Pro will perform?


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Michael Gissing
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 2:23:50 pm

[Steve Connor] "How on earth could you be confident about that when we have NO idea about how the new Mac Pro will perform?"

Resolve performs better with CUDA. Apple makes expensive hardware. So it's a fair bet that a custom PC running NVIDIA cards will outperform a MacPro with AMD cards. I have no intention of spending that sort of money But seriously, matching specs on anything I build will be cheaper than a computer Apple makes.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 2:44:58 pm

[Michael Gissing] "Resolve performs better with CUDA."

So you trade one “proprietary” system for another. We all make choices.

“Better” is relative. Metal is new-ish, and seems to be direct competition for CUDA and now with this new machine, developers may be more interested as they will have more opportunity to give customers a real performance difference with faster/multiple/purpose built GPU hardware inside the Mac with direct PCIe access.

The new Mac Pro looks like a monster machine. I am curious to it’s performance in a non maxed out version. We need some power, but not maximum power. Although, when you look at it in the grand scheme of gear, it’s like buying a new higher end camera body. Guess it’s time to raise rates again?


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Ricardo Marty
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 5, 2019 at 3:55:01 am

Linus Mac Pro technical analysis. Says some interesting Things.









Ricardo Marty

Some will buy it, not me


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Greg Jones
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 3, 2019 at 6:55:54 pm

Wow! It literally looks like a cheese grater now. Pretty powerful cheese grater.

Greg Jones
D7,Inc.

Greg Jones
Orlando,Fl.
http://www.d7-inc.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 3, 2019 at 7:04:58 pm

The hardware looks amazing.





but

Can anyone not call Catalina, the Catalina Wine Mixer?

It's the ... Catalina Wine Mixer!

This clip contains swear words:







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Doug Metz
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 3, 2019 at 7:54:19 pm

Exactly. My first reaction - helicopters!

Doug Metz

Dalton+Anode


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Eric Santiago
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 3, 2019 at 8:57:45 pm

As I was watching this in awe, I keep thinking we were being punked with the config then price.
It's like, hey you want something modular...suck on this 😉
Now to convince the upper foreheads that I need a half dozen of these :P

However, I am out of the display league :(


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Drew Lahat
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 3, 2019 at 10:33:26 pm
Last Edited By Drew Lahat on Jun 3, 2019 at 10:35:39 pm

Finally... meaningful post-production news from Cupertino! 😉
Some less-obvious observations, from a post I wrote for CML:


1. That Cheese Grater Shape
You'll find some "Krafty" comments about the "cheesy" design... still debating if Apple messed up again or if it's charming retro. But then it dawned on me... it's all about being able to pop off the entire external case - it'll be easy to design alternative 3rd party casings! I'd be surprised if Sonnet and OWC aren't already thinking those up. (Unless the case latches employ a 2048-bit encryption scheme with special T2 chips, of course. ☺ )

One more concern, and reason for a 3rd-party shell: If I'm seeing what I'm seeing... you have to disconnect all cables and peripherals before opening the computer. Just look at the way the case wraps below the rear ports...


2. Expansion
8 PCI slots! I don't think any Mac ever had more than 6 expansion slots, and I also counted up to 12 Thunderbolt ports. That's some scary expansion capability.

2 10Gbase-T ports (actually Nbase-T, meaning you can do 10, 5, 2.5, or 1 Gb Ethernet) are a welcome addition for shared editing workflows.


3. Storage
You get 2 M.2 ports for SSD's, but that's it. I'm not seeing any provisions for mounting internal SATA drives. There's a large unexplained empty space above the PCI slots with what looks like 2 SATA ports, so you may be able to mount 2 SATA drives of your choice. But it's notable that with a machine as big and heavy as the classic Mac Pro, there's less space for storage. Apple apparently counts on you using a big external RAID chassis.


4. Rackmount
I got all miffed about how they screwed up again (the chassis itself is 17.1" - but the handles it's 20.8"), but thanks Andre for pointing it out - there will be a rack edition. It's not in the specs, but in the press release.


5. $$$
Is Apple out of touch again, or is this a good value for the extreme specs? Everyone will have their opinions on that. Personally, I'm happy with my 2009 Classic Mac Pro which is churning along just fine. You can kit it to newer firmware, CPUs, modern GPUs, USB3, SATA6, SSDs... That makes me hope that this new Mac, in a welcome departure from Apple's glue-all philosophy, could be useful on your desk 10 or 12 years from now. It's been a while since we were able to consider Macs as such a long-term investment.


6. Pro Display XDR
The Dolby Vision specs for a reference monitor are SMPTE 2084/PQ, >1000 nits, P3 gamut, and 200,000:1 contrast. This display satisfies all those specs. Assuming you can feed it accurate color (no SDI ports here ☺ ) this could be a good budget Dolby Vision monitor. $5-$6K is insane for a GUI monitor, but a bargain compared to a $30K Eizo CG3145.


We had our expectations set a certain way after the trashcan Macs... and while Apple would never admit it, they actually went retro for once. A modular, expensive, top-spec beast that's every bit as big and heavy as the 2003-2012 Mac Pros. Now we just gotta get our hands on the production units...


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 3, 2019 at 11:12:33 pm

[Drew Lahat] "5. $$$
Is Apple out of touch again, or is this a good value for the extreme specs? "


In fairness, this price at most reasonable configurations is in line with the current pricing on the trash can Mac Pros and on the iMac Pros. It's also comparable to a similarly configuration high-end PC, such as from Dell, HP, Puget, etc.

It's worth noting that Intel gets a premium for Xeon chips. These generally add $1K to the price over an equivalent Core i7 or i9. That's in part responsible for the price difference between an iMac and an iMac Pro.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 3, 2019 at 11:20:37 pm

BTW - speaking of the trash can Mac Pro, it appears to have been removed from the Apple website. I guess you can now only purchase refurbished units from their website going forward.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 3, 2019 at 11:47:23 pm

More info from Peter Wiggins here:

http://www.fcp.co/final-cut-pro/news/2184-apple-announce-the-new-mac-pro-pr...

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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greg janza
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 4, 2019 at 4:20:46 pm

[Oliver Peters] "BTW - speaking of the trash can Mac Pro, it appears to have been removed from the Apple website. I guess you can now only purchase refurbished units from their website going forward.
"


That's the best news.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/tmprods
tallmanproductions.net


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Dom Silverio
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 4, 2019 at 4:26:04 pm

[Drew Lahat] "2. Expansion
8 PCI slots! I don't think any Mac ever had more than 6 expansion slots, and I also counted up to 12 Thunderbolt ports. That's some scary expansion capability."


There are only 4 TB ports per Apple's spec (2 back and 2 on top). The other USB-C ports are just USB 3.x ports and not TB.
In theory, it can be expanded via PCIe but that would be dependent on Apple.


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Scott Thomas
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 5, 2019 at 2:26:43 am

According to the Apple website, The Radeon Pro Vega II gives you four more Thunderbolt 3 ports per card. They claim a total of 12 possible on the machine.


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Mark Suszko
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 13, 2019 at 2:04:23 pm

I read elsewhere that the SSD memory in this cheesegrater is not an m2 connector but a proprietary variation on the standard connector, so if you want to add or upgrade the SSD's, Apple will be your only source on that. Unless and until someone else copies that connector.


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Andre van Berlo
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 13, 2019 at 3:06:55 pm

Wouldn't it be possible to add fast ssd storage via the pcie slots? There's 8 of them on this Mac.


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 13, 2019 at 3:51:02 pm

[Andre van Berlo] "Wouldn't it be possible to add fast ssd storage via the pcie slots? "

It can't be standard SSD internal drives. If possible, it would have to be card-mounted, like the regular NVMe drives.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Doug Metz
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 13, 2019 at 3:59:18 pm

I was thinking along the lines of the Promise solution, but with the option to use multiple NVMe sticks in an MXP module.

Doug Metz

Dalton+Anode


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 13, 2019 at 4:00:04 pm

Updated:

[Andre van Berlo] "Wouldn't it be possible to add fast ssd storage via the pcie slots? "

It can't be standard SSD internal drives. If possible, it would have to be card-mounted, like the regular NVMe drives. However, that depends on whether or not the card mounting structure will actually hold these in place.

I think right now there are still a lot of questions around whether standard PCIe form-factors will work without some type of special Apple mounting chassis like the MPX. You'll note that Promise has announced their product - a 4-drive RAIDed NVMe in an MPX chassis.

Regular PCIe cards? Probably for full length cards like Kona or Decklink. Others? Hmm...

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Dom Silverio
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 13, 2019 at 9:32:27 pm

There are M2 to PCIe solutions out there. Assuming Apple does not go the proprietary route you can use those. I'm not sure if you can use it as a boot drive. That will depend on Apple's implementation.

There are also SATA ports. While not as fast as NVMe / PCIe solutions, this would be the easiest to add SSD storage on the MacPro.


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 13, 2019 at 10:06:39 pm

[Dom Silverio] "There are also SATA ports."

There are? In the 2019 MP?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Shane Ross
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 13, 2019 at 10:09:02 pm

Yeah...but no POWER...just the ports. Makes one wonder what these are for.'



Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 14, 2019 at 12:22:00 am

[Shane Ross] "Yeah...but no POWER...just the ports"

I don't see that. Only PCIe slots. See below.



- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Shane Ross
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 14, 2019 at 12:25:31 am

Here...circled...



Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 14, 2019 at 12:28:17 am

Those aren't SATA slots, though.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 14, 2019 at 12:31:47 am

OK wait. You are thinking SATA cable connectors, instead of a drive slot. I see.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Shane Ross
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 14, 2019 at 1:22:17 am

Yes...CONNECTORS. For the drive, but again, no power. And no, no slots. Only TWO drive slots for M2 SSD drives. Weaksauce. What's wrong with allowing for 4 internal drives? Sure, we can keep things compact by allowing the 2.5" SSD drives, but I'd love that. My MacPro 2008...those 4 drive bays. My Hackintosh...3 full sized SATA drive slots, and two 2.5" slots on the other side (well, MOUNTS). VERY handy having multiple internal hard drives.

FOr some reason Apple doesn't think anyone wants that. That we all want external drives for everything! Oh, here, they'll playcate us by giving us ONE extra slot. Good, no?

Current rig has Two 500GB SSDs, and three 3TB SATA drives. LOTS of room for my sound effects library, stock footage library, room for the smaller projects.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 14, 2019 at 1:47:04 am

[Shane Ross] "And no, no slots. Only TWO drive slots for M2 SSD drives. "

Correct. That's my concern. It appears that the intention is to mount drives into an MPX module, like Promise is planning to release. Therefore, I would presume that if you wanted to add your own raw drive(s), you would have to purchase the MPX chassis from Apple. Potentially there will be third-party MPX modules available. And, would you even be able to add a 3.5" spinning hard drive or will you be limited to 2.5" SSDs or only NVMe drives?

[Shane Ross] "That we all want external drives for everything!"

They have to justify Thunderbolt 3 somehow ☺

[Shane Ross] "What's wrong with allowing for 4 internal drives?"

In fact, if you used the optical drive bays, you could do up to 6 drives on the older Mac Pros.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 14, 2019 at 2:17:01 am

[Oliver Peters] "Correct. That's my concern. It appears that the intention is to mount drives into an MPX module, like Promise is planning to release. Therefore, I would presume that if you wanted to add your own raw drive(s), you would have to purchase the MPX chassis from Apple. Potentially there will be third-party MPX modules available. And, would you even be able to add a 3.5" spinning hard drive or will you be limited to 2.5" SSDs or only NVMe drives?"

This is something I'm confused about. Can you just put cards into the slots or do you always have to use an MPX chassis?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 14, 2019 at 10:26:59 am

[Oliver Peters] "In fact, if you used the optical drive bays, you could do up to 6 drives on the older Mac Pros."

It would take a lot of drives to equal the capacity of one single HDD’ today.

Drives in the older Mac pro were typically less then 1TB.

With the Promise thingy announced, you can get 32 TBs inside the MacPro. Those capacities simply weren’t available in the old cheese grater days. Single hard drives can reach up to 14TBs. 4 of those would be 56TBs in one computer. I think we will be OK.


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 14, 2019 at 12:11:07 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Drives in the older Mac pro were typically less then 1TB. "

You are talking about stock from Apple, not after market upgrades. I haven't actually tested whether the power supplies would handle it, but a 2012 MP should be able to easily take 4 x 4TB, plus 1 or 2 SSDs up to 4TB each. You can get spinning disc drives up to 14TB these days, so in theory up to 4 x 14TB in an older tower, plus the SSDs. Again, the caveat being the power supply. I have personally run 2009 towers with 2 x 1TB SSDs, plus 2 x 2TB 7200RPM drives.

So yes, if this tower could take 4 x 14TB 7200 RPM drives, that would be great. But it doesn't look like that's possible.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 14, 2019 at 12:22:05 pm

[Oliver Peters] "So yes, if this tower could take 4 x 14TB 7200 RPM drives, that would be great. But it doesn't look like that's possible."

Not sure if you read the rest of my post, but I mention the Promise card that hold 4 HDDs. Promise advertises 32TB Raw, preformatted to raid 5. The asterisk says there’s more capacities coming later. Same with J2i with 2 drives only.

https://www.promise.com/us/Promotion/PegasusStorage


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 14, 2019 at 12:32:52 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Not sure if you read the rest of my post"

I did. I was mainly talking about the old towers. The Promise products say more capacities to be announced. So we'll see.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 14, 2019 at 12:35:37 pm

[Oliver Peters] "You are talking about stock from Apple, not after market upgrades."

No, I am talking about how large HDDs were when the old cheesegrater MacPro was designed. The capacity simply wasn’t there. You needed to stuff 6 drives in it in order to get enough space.

Today, that issue is less of a problem, unless of course you are dealing exclusively in large format raw codecs.

I believe, if you need it, there will be plenty of storage opportunities inside the machine.


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Joe Marler
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 14, 2019 at 12:05:58 pm

[Oliver Peters] "I would presume that if you wanted to add your own raw drive(s), you would have to purchase the MPX chassis from Apple. Potentially there will be third-party MPX modules available. And, would you even be able to add a 3.5" spinning hard drive or will you be limited to 2.5" SSDs or only NVMe drives?
"


The Pegasus J2i appears to be a simple sled for two 3.5" SATA HDDs. The announcement said it will use a "custom cable assembly", getting data from the Mac Pro's SATA header. While not mentioned, there are 6-pin PCIe power headers on the motherboard. It might get power from a PCIe 6-pin to SATA female cable, maybe something like this: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61iKLfXQl4L._SX425_.jpg

The J2i appears to be just a piece of sheet metal, so that would be the "old school" way of doing it - power and data via cables. It would also occupy the vertical space of an MPX module while holding only two 3.5" drives.

The R4i MPX module is apparently "cable free", getting all power and data from the PCIe slot and MPX extension slot. It appears to use 4 x 8TB SATA 3.5" HDDs. The MPX extension slot also has Thunderbolt access, so I don't know if Promise is using a PCIe host controller (more likely) or Thunderbolt. Also unknown is how many internal Thunderbolt busses the new Mac Pro has.

In theory you could swap out the R4i's 8TB SATA hard drives with 4TB SATA SSDs in 2.5" adapters. There are even 8TB SATA SSDs now available but they are expensive. Or if not compatible, some other mfg. could make an MPX module designed for higher density 2.5" SATA SSDs. However SATA isn't the best interface for SSDs, just saying it's theoretically possible. But conceptually two MPX modules each with 4 x 8TB SATA SSDs would give 64TB SSD internal capacity, plus the 4TB on the motherboard.

PCIe-based NVMe cards are also available. The ASUS Hyper M.2 x16 Card V2 supports up to four PCIe NVMe daughter cards, for 8TB -- per board. I don't know if it's compatible with the new Mac Pro but it illustrates the form factor and capacity exist for substantial PCIe-based SSD storage:
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-7CT8Knh/0/6af36959/L/i-7CT8Knh-L.jpg

Beyond this, Samsung has 8TB PCIe SSDs in a M.2-size but new NF1 form factor. If a compatible PCIe card with 4 x NF1 sockets were made, each PCIe slot could hold 32 TB SSD: https://www.samsung.com/semiconductor/insights/news-events/samsung-introduc...

A maxed-out Mac Pro with 1.5TB RAM and stuffed full of 8TB PCIe SSD cards would be expensive. However the NF1 form factor SSDs will be widely used in data centers: https://www.samsung.com/semiconductor/insights/tech-leadership/server-scala...

If an MPX module was designed to accept the above 8TB NF1 cards for perpendicular insertion (see above photo), at 5mm width per card each MPX module might hold 30 8TB cards for a total of about 240TB. This of course assumes adequate cooling, power and bus bandwidth.


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 14, 2019 at 12:13:45 pm
Last Edited By Oliver Peters on Jun 14, 2019 at 12:17:14 pm

[Joe Marler] "The Pegasus J2i appears to be a simple sled for two 3.5" SATA HDDs. The announcement said it will use a "custom cable assembly", getting data from the Mac Pro's SATA header."

Any links to that?

Edit: Never mind. I see it on Promise's home page.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Martin Curtis
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 5, 2019 at 3:24:03 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "It's the ... Catalina Wine Mixer!"

Pow!


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Gerry Fraiberg
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 3, 2019 at 11:57:55 pm

The BIG CHEESE.

- Gerry Fraiberg
Videographer | Editor | Photographer | Voice Over Artist.
______________________________________________
http://www.visionandvoice.ca
❖ ❖ ❖


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Bob Zelin
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 4, 2019 at 12:18:09 am

but WAIT ! -
shouldn't the existing Apple fan boys be insulted ?-
as NO ONE needs all those slots, no one needs all those ports, no one needs all that RAM, etc.
You can do "EVERYTHING" with the current Mac's - why would anyone need anything else ?

Are you telling me that "they" were WRONG ?

Yes - the new Mac Pro looks amazing, and coming from a background of very expensive Sony VTR's - it really doesn't matter what it costs, because a HP Z8 loaded with RAM, dual RTX-2080ti's, HP Dreamcolor Z31X monitor, etc. costs a fortune as well.

We have another PROFESSIONAL product from Apple now - who cares what people that don't do professional hi end work think about this. I am happy it cost a lot of money.

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Ricardo Marty
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 4, 2019 at 2:05:22 am

For almost 6 k you will get:

1- 3.5 Xeon w
2-8 cores 16 threads
3-turbo 4ghz
4-cache 25.5 gb
5-cpu memory up to 1tb 2.666
6-system memory 32 gb 4x8 dimms
7-amd radeon 850x
8-compute units 36 with 2304 stream units
9-graphic memory 8 ddr5
10-no graphic accelerator
11-display support, 6-4k or 2-5k or 2-pro xdr
13-storage 266 gb







I think I can do better elsewhere

RM


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Neil Goodman
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 4, 2019 at 2:26:17 am

thats a sexy looking computer.. I probably will never need a puter with that much potential horsepower but I want one.

Great to see apple listening. Not swinging for the fences and whiffing (the traschcan), and just giving us something that works in a tried and trusted package.


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David Mathis
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 4, 2019 at 5:13:37 pm

Just for fun!

A few cheesy jokes (many of them great) have shown up in many Facebook groups.

MAGA - Make Apple Grate Again
Several Tesla comments
One photo had a kitchen scene loved the external heat sink
A few cheese grater GIFs
Of course there have been some degrating remarks 😉

Now where is the wine? Have plenty of cheese to go with it.


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 4, 2019 at 11:52:14 pm

More at FCP.co

http://www.fcp.co/final-cut-pro/news/2185-day-two-from-wwdc-2019-more-mac-p...

Note the mention of a pre-release version of FCPX. The color mask looks like the same as in Resolve.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Ricardo Marty
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 5, 2019 at 2:18:00 am

The article states that it will support Nvidia cards but only in boot camp.


Ricardo Marty


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Bernard Newnham
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 5, 2019 at 10:30:48 am

Just a mile down the road here they make the McLaren Senna -

Performance
0-100KPH (62MPH) 2.8s
0-200KPH (124MPH) 6.8s
0-300KPH (186MPH) 17.5s

Engine
Type V8
Technology Twin-Turbo
McLaren M840TR 3,994CC
Power 800PS (789BHP)
Torque 800NM (590LB FT)

It's jolly pretty, very high spec, and if I get rid of my house and live on the street I could afford one. But actually, I drive a Toyota Avensis, which does the jobs required of it. I can't think of anyone (maybe a Pixar render farm?) actually needing this new Mac, except as a boy's toy (mine is bigger than yours). And Pixar might not be interested as it has no CUDA. So in the wider world, what's it for?

Bernie


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Steve Connor
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 5, 2019 at 10:53:27 am

[Bernard Newnham] "So in the wider world, what's it for?
"


People who actually bill a couple of hundred ££ or more a day for Edit suite hire?


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 5, 2019 at 12:00:10 pm

Some rational analysis.

Max Yuryev






Linus Tech Tips






- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 5, 2019 at 12:32:48 pm
Last Edited By Oliver Peters on Jun 5, 2019 at 12:35:03 pm

Regarding i/o. The base model has similar i/o to the iMac Pro. It includes 4 TB3/USBC-style ports on the GPU card, but those are DisplayPort, not Thunderbolt, so they can only drive a display from these. You have to upgrade the GPU option to get more Thunderbolt 3 plus HDMI on the GPU card. The computer itself offers 4 TB3/USBC and 2 USB3 (USB connectors) between the back and the top. But Apple doesn't specify how many TB buses from what I can tell. And two 10GigE ports.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Martin Curtis
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 5, 2019 at 11:59:00 am

[Bernard Newnham] "And Pixar might not be interested as it has no CUDA."
You could always find out.
“We are thrilled to announce full Metal support in Hydra in an upcoming release of USD toward the end of the year. Together with this new release, the new Mac Pro will dramatically accelerate the most demanding 3D graphics workflows thanks to an excellent combination of memory, bandwidth and computational performance. This new machine clearly shows Apple is delivering on the needs of professionals at high-end production facilities like Pixar.” — Guido Quaroni, vice president of Software Research and Development, Pixar


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Ronny Courtens
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 5, 2019 at 1:54:17 pm

Actually, the reactions from the target audience of this new MacPro are very positive. I have been making some calls since the announcement, and the vast majority of the people I know have told me they are going to buy a number of these machines once they are available. This morning, I got an e-mail from a friend in Cape Town who handles the post-production of BBC Wildlife in SA. Tons of footage, mostly 6K and beyond, with heavy grading in Resolve and audio sweetening in ProTools. I will quote his message: "The New Mac Pro is beautiful and everything you said it would be. As soon as it's out in September we will be buying two of the maxed out models... FINALLY... it was worth the wait."

This is not Pixar, nor a national broadcaster. It's a high-end post boutique that is very successful. And he knows his clients are happy to pay a bonus for the best possible quality and performance. There are many studios like this one and, for them, 30 or 40K for a real powerhouse is perfectly acceptable (he currently uses 2 Linux machines that cost more than this).

So, before assuming that no-one will buy this MacPro just because you don't need it, it would be best to realize that there is a very vast world outside everyone's little neck of the woods.

I have watched the videos from Max Yuryev and Linus. I find Linus's video quite rational indeed. I had not expected this kind of objectivity from him as he is a DIY guy who constantly bashes anything Mac related. Not really, this time. Max caters for the lower-end pros who will never need a system like this, not even the base model. So I don't find his video surprising, nor adequate. A few months ago, I had a conversation with him because he pretended that 40K for a server is way overkill and that no-one would ever spend that much money on a NAS. Which made me burst out in laughs because I have clients who have bought +500K systems from Lumaforge because they found the price tag very acceptable compared with the competition. As I said: there is a very vast world outside everyone's little neck of the woods.

- Ronny


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Steve Connor
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 5, 2019 at 3:08:26 pm

[Ronny Courtens] "As I said: there is a very vast world outside everyone's little neck of the woods."

Great post Ronny, Apple did something totally unexpected and amazing with the new Mac Pro and it's good to get a view from a higher level :)


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 5, 2019 at 4:51:40 pm

But it's nice to see that it still has a headphone jack ☺

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Dominic Deacon
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 5, 2019 at 8:57:44 pm

Great insight Ronny. Can I ask why such facilities are running Macs in the first place? It's just something I'm trying to understand. As Linus points out, the premium on the base model Mac Pro is almost two times the cost of the parts. I imagine the costs will scale on the more expensive Macs to be twice as expesive for the upper level models as well.

When the only difference is an operating system, why spend two times as much to run professional software? Particularly given the options on the PC side- for instance Intel processors at the high end often don't make a lot of sense as a purchase next to a Threadripper, nVidia GPUs are typically far superior, etc. It seems to me they are paying a huge premium to for less options.

As someone who spends all day working in 3DS Max and similar applications, and only moments interacting with the operating system, I've never really considered the operating system as a key element.


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 1:28:42 am

For grins I priced out an HP Z8 in something that’s fairly close to the base configuration of the Mac Pro. $8K. You get a better 3 year warranty, but even with AppleCare on the MP, you are under that.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Dominic Deacon
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 7:16:04 am

If that's the case I guess I just don't understand the pricing on branded units full stop. If the parts are worth $3k why pay $6k? I know I paid about $4k for mine. Its got two 1080ti, 64gbs of ram, a 24 core threadripper, harddrives and solid state drives. It's going to be significantly more powerfully than that Mac for any taskI can think of. I paid a pro $50 to put it together so didn't have to spend that hour on it myself. I guess my warranties aren't as great but under Australian consumer law that's no issue (the time frame set by the manufacturer really counts for not a lot here. It's about reasonable expectation).


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 11:18:26 am

[Dominic Deacon] "If the parts are worth $3k why pay $6k?"

The parts are more than that. Look up the pricing on Xeon CPU chips. An example:

https://www.cdw.com/product/Intel-Xeon-Gold-6128-3.4-GHz-processor/4872883?...

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Herb Sevush
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 12:29:22 pm

[Oliver Peters] "For grins I priced out an HP Z8 in something that’s fairly close to the base configuration of the Mac Pro. $8K."

Which is why most independent editors don't buy HPs. Saying the Mac Pro is no more expensive than an HP doesn't make it a good deal.

I will say that only Apple could have fulfilled it's promise and bummed me out at the same time. I love the look of the case, but I'm not buying a workstation that will live on the floor under my desk for it's looks. Apple has totally shut me out as a buyer - this Mac Pro is way over spec'd ( I don't need Xeons, an i9 will do just fine) and priced for my needs, the Imac is a closed unmodifiable system with a screen I don't need or want, and the mini is, even with an eGPU and maxed out, insufficient for my needs.

Now back to work on my POS trashcan that I loathe. I still have my 2010 cheese grater, but it's lack of Tbolt connectivity and inability to use the latest nVidia cards make it an emergency system only.

Gggrrrrrrrrr - curses, foiled again.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Steve Connor
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 12:51:05 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Gggrrrrrrrrr - curses, foiled again."

Why am I not surprised that you're unhappy about it :)


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Herb Sevush
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 12:56:13 pm

[Steve Connor] "Why am I not surprised that you're unhappy about it :)"

Possibly because of my legendary negativity, but remember, just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean that they aren't out to get you.

And by "they" I mean Apple, and by "you" I mean me.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 1:01:57 pm

[Herb Sevush] "And by "they" I mean Apple, and by "you" I mean me."

Herb, it’s really good to hear from you.


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Herb Sevush
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 1:32:00 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Herb, it’s really good to hear from you."

Likewise.

It's ever so nice to be appreciated in one's own time.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Herb Sevush
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 1:29:04 pm

[Oliver Peters] "For grins I priced out an HP Z8 in something that’s fairly close to the base configuration of the Mac Pro. $8K."

Second reply.

For grins I priced out a PC at ADK, a well known video integrator. For less than 5.5K I can get 1TB SSD boot drive, 64k memory, Thunderbolt and all assorted i/o including a firewire 800 for legacy drives, nVidia 2080ti & 12 cores (but an i9).

This computer would kick the stuffings out of the base Mac Pro at 6k. But of course it doesn't run OSX. While some may bemoan the cost of subscriptions, the dongle cost for using OSX only software is fairly steep.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 2:19:40 pm

[Herb Sevush] "For grins I priced out a PC at ADK, a well known video integrator."

Yes, I can do that too and have done so with companies like Puget. But it misses the point that this is not the arena that Apple is playing in.

Second, although an i9 will outperform a Xeon by the numbers - and is probably a better CPU for NLEs and AE - it is inherently not designed to run 24/7 flat out. The i9 certainly blurs those lines and is more than adequate for most content producers. Regardless, Intel gets a premium price for the Xeons over the Core series and that adds to the cost from the get-go.

So, can you spec a cheaper PC? Sure. But that is not a direct comparison part-for-part.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Herb Sevush
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 2:49:56 pm

[Oliver Peters] "So, can you spec a cheaper PC? Sure. But that is not a direct comparison part-for-part."

My guess is if I changed the12 core i9 to an 8 core Xeon it will increase the price around 1.5K for both CPU and motherboard, which means for 7K you will have a computer that kicks the stuffings out of the 6K base Mac Pro.

And more importantly I'm not comparing spec for spec, I'm comparing feature for feature and useability for usability. For editing with heavy rendering, as opposed to being a server on a render farm, the i9 system would be the way to go. A useable Mac Pro is going to be somewhere north of 8K, probably around 10K to compete with the 5-6K systems I'm describing.

I'm not knocking the Mac Pro for what it is designed for, I'm complaining that it wasn't designed for me, and neither is anything else that Apple offers.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Dom Silverio
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 8:07:41 pm

The problem with comparing it to the z8s is that HP uses Intel Bronze/Silver/Gold/Plat Xeons. And Apple is using the "W" line per their website. I can't find the exact model Apple is using based on the released specs. But the 2019 W line with 8 core is around $1200.

If you go with specs, then you would need to spend $4K on the Xeon Gold. If you based it on price, then you are looking at Silver.

So it's really hard to compare. I doubt Apple is using the $4K equivalent of Gold. They are likely using the $1200 version.


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Dom Silverio
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 9:26:03 pm

It seems they are using the $800 version of the Intel Cascade Lake Xeon W. So The HP z8 is basically the same price as the 2019 MP.


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Brett Sherman
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 12:31:07 pm
Last Edited By Brett Sherman on Jun 6, 2019 at 12:33:21 pm

[Ronny Courtens] "So, before assuming that no-one will buy this MacPro just because you don't need it, it would be best to realize that there is a very vast world outside everyone's little neck of the woods."

Of course. I'm glad the high-end shops have a Mac for them. I don't think it's assuming too much that this won't be a huge commercial success. But I don't think Apple necessarily intended it to be such. They clearly wanted to meet the needs of high-end facilities where cost is not much of an issue. I think it removes hardware as a barrier to using Apple. However, there are still barriers that remain for many of these potential customers - most notably the Nvidia/Apple conflict. That will undoubtedly dampen sales of such a high-end machine.

Now for us in the mid-level. It's hard to see how I justify a purchase of this machine. The base configuration simply doesn't cut it for me - 256GB? You have to be joking. No fool would ever buy a machine with a 256GB system drive as it would lead to continual problems. Unless there's a sweet spot for less than $8000, I don't see it's realistic for me. And I'm not convinced at that price point it will be faster than an iMac option.

The only hope would be if there is a Mac Pro junior at some point. 1 double PCIe slot, 1 regular PCIe (for afterburner), 2 m.2 NVMe slots, 6 DIMM slots, 400 watt PSU, 10GB Ethernet is all I would need. I sort of doubt it, but a person can have a dream.


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 12:50:05 pm

[Brett Sherman] "I don't think it's assuming too much that this won't be a huge commercial success"

I'm not sure that's true, but it depends on how you define success. Obviously there's a workstation market, otherwise, HP and Dell wouldn't manufacture such machines.

I think the point that's being lost is when the first Mac Pro tower was introduced (and previous Mac towers before it), generally there weren't a lot of sufficiently powerful desktop machines for editing. Everything was a workstation. In the interim, desktops, all-in-ones, and laptops have become powerful enough to meet the needs of nearly every user.

I think Apple miscalculated with the 2013 Mac Pro, believing that the needs for a true workstation had been eliminated, i.e., no need for "trucks." After all, that 2013 MP was a powerful desktop machine, but not a true workstation. With the 2019 MP, they are re-engaging with customers that actually still do need a "truck" and are willing to pay for it.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Brett Sherman
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 5:22:19 pm

[Oliver Peters] "
I'm not sure that's true, but it depends on how you define success. Obviously there's a workstation market, otherwise, HP and Dell wouldn't manufacture such machines."


There is a much bigger market for PC workstations. I'm sure they can turn a profit on their workstations. I'm not so sure about Apple. But like I said, I don't think for Apple it's to make money. And like I said I also don't have a problem with Apple serving this market. I do think there is a hole they are missing in the 5-8K range of people who want upgradeability but don't need the performance (or cost) of this Mac Pro.


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Herb Sevush
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 12:57:07 pm

[Brett Sherman] "Now for us in the mid-level. It's hard to see how I justify a purchase of this machine. "

+1 on that.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Winston A. Cely
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 3:09:09 pm

Maybe I'm missing something, but I feel like Apple has covered all its bases in terms of hardware for professional editing. If you're a smaller business or an individual pro-editor, need horsepower and some minor upgradeability via Thunderbolt, you have the iMac Pro. If you're a large business or have a big need for upgradeability, want something that is engineered to be modular right down to how you want to mount your monitor or whatever other largescale process required of your business, you now have the Mac Pro. Sure, the Nvidia thing is a poke in the eye for some folks, but many of the companies that make software that utilizes those cards, seem to be excited about the Mac Pro and are moving towards making their software take advantage of its built-in capabilities. That seems to be lessening that sting just a bit.

Of course, this is all just blathering about nothing at this point. We won't really know until the darn thing gets released and used in the real world.

Winston A. Cely
ACTC Media Broadcasting Video Instructor
Apple Certified Editor FCPX 3

"If you can talk brilliantly enough about a subject, you can create the consoling illusion it has been mastered." - Stanley Kubrick


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 3:52:26 pm

[Winston A. Cely] "but I feel like Apple has covered all its bases in terms of hardware for professional editing."

Completely agree. I think there's a lot of "envy" going on, because some folks simply can't afford/justify the top-of-the-line machine any longer. That's OK. Any decent computer these days will give you real-time performance with 4K media, which is more than most editors are dealing with anyway. So there isn't an need for many to make that jump.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Herb Sevush
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 4:18:18 pm

[Winston A. Cely] "Maybe I'm missing something, "

What you're missing is that some people (me, for example) hate the idea of a closed computer, and have neither the room nor the desire for another monitor, and are therefore totally uninterested in the iMac (pro or otherwise.) Apple has finally brought back an open system computer, but only for those who can pony up 10K and upwards. If there were, as someone suggested, a Jr version of the Mac Pro offering the components of an iMac in an open system case that came in at 6K there would be hosannahs in all the land, but alas, such is not the case (pun intended.)

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Steve Connor
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 4:25:57 pm

[Herb Sevush] "but only for those who can pony up 10K and upwards"

Which, in a "Pro" market, should be quite a lot of people! It's not very much money for something that will give you 3+ years of use. I'll get the costs back for mine in less than a year.

Camera Owners must be laughing their heads off at all the Editors angst about the cost of the Mac Pro


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greg janza
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 4:44:57 pm

[Steve Connor] "Camera Owners must be laughing their heads off at all the Editors angst about the cost of the Mac Pro"

Kinda an apples and oranges thing. Camera owners have a significantly higher day rate to cover the high cost of their equipment. But most freelance editors don't have the option to charge a premium for their computer equipment on top of their daily rate.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/tmprods
tallmanproductions.net


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Steve Connor
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 5:22:06 pm

[greg janza] "But most freelance editors don't have the option to charge a premium for their computer equipment on top of their daily rate."

Then Bob Zelin's vision of the future is true? I know you can't charge as much per day as a RED owner, but people should be charging something?


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Shane Ross
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 6:33:50 pm

[greg janza] "Camera owners have a significantly higher day rate to cover the high cost of their equipment. But most freelance editors don't have the option to charge a premium for their computer equipment on top of their daily rate."

Wrong. SO WRONG. Computers, hard drives, editing software. That isn't cheap either. THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS of investment. If you aren't adding that equipment rental to your fee...that's on you. ANYONE who doesn't do that, is doing a disservice to not only themselves, but to others. And setting client expectations COMPLETELY wrong. How on earth can you invest thousands of dollars into equipment...and then the upkeep of that equipment...and then updating of that equipment...without charging a fee? Why do camera ops get to do this, but not editors? I don't get your logic at all.

Part of the price of food in a store, is the cost of not only the food in the store, but the workers, the electricity, the rent on the land or building (or mortgage and property taxes)...the equipment used to track the sales of that food. ALL of it. That's built into the cost. YOUR equipment should also be built into the cost of your doing business.

My kid's girl scout troop did a project...track the cost of one type of food, in this case, an apple, across several types of stores and locations. Corner market in Los Angeles, large grocery store in Los Angeles. Same types of businesses, but then in Idaho, Ohio, Tennessee, Alabama and New York...rural and urban areas. Track the cost difference. The apple costs significantly higher in larger cities, opposed to the rural areas, in the same state. And differed from state to state. Reasons? Rent, electricity, wages....lots of factors.

If you are an editor with a laptop and a hard drive...you charge a kit fee. Smaller than someone who uses a tower, two monitors, a RAID and a broadcast monitor...but you charge a fee. Where I might charge $500/week for my setup, you might charge $50/week for yours. BUT YOU CHARGE. Overhead...someone working out of their garage (me) would charge less than a colorist occupying a lush bay in a big building. Where they charge $350/hour, I charge $125/hour. Less overhead. But that is the fee for me, and my system....on a daily rate. Weekly is cheaper, due to longer term employment/rental. Just like renting a house on a monthly basis is cheaper than a hotel room...when calculated over a month.

MY GOD...are there that many people NOT charging for their equipment out there? Is this why many clients seem shocked when I add that cost to a bid for services? to my estimated costs?

It's bad enough that projects have money for the camera people, and their equipment, but then seem to have zero left (or very little) when it comes to post...so ask for a HUGE discount on our end. But to then not charge for the equipment? You get an F on this business school test.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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greg janza
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 6:57:55 pm

[Shane Ross] "You get an F on this business school test."

Shane, you made me laugh so kudos to you on your post. The perfect way to discuss this would be over cocktails but in lieu of that, all I can say is that the business has changed dramatically since I began freelancing in the mid-90's. I'm happy for those that can maintain a premium charge because I agree with everything you've stated but at least in my market, larger economic forces dictate rates and if freelancers aren't flexible they'll simply have less work offered to them.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/tmprods
tallmanproductions.net


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 7:05:07 pm

[greg janza] "larger economic forces dictate rates and if freelancers aren't flexible they'll simply have less work offered to them."

I'm with Shane. I don't see that either. Lower rates, yes. But there are still rates. For example, one of my f/l gigs has been location edits for conferences. If I bring my laptop edit system there's a kit fee. If they don't like my rate for it, they have the option to supply me with a system. Some do, some don't.

If I book a room in at a small production company or editorial boutique to edit for clients I bring in there, I still have to pay the host company a rental fee for the room and gear. That certainly gets added back into my invoice. Maybe with little or no mark-up, but I certainly don't eat that cost. There's quite a lot of companies with that sort of rental business model in NYC and LA.

I really don't see those parameters being different in any market based on people I know around the country. What does tend to happen is flat bidding for a job; but in those cases, the bid includes some factor for gear.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Shane Ross
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 7:12:22 pm

[greg janza] "the business has changed dramatically since I began freelancing in the mid-90's. I'm happy for those that can maintain a premium charge because I agree with everything you've stated but at least in my market, larger economic forces dictate rates and if freelancers aren't flexible they'll simply have less work offered to them."

So...they can take advantage of you and you let them? yeah, I'll need a few whiskys in me to let that one settle in.

I do realize that the market from the 1990s has changed. Not longer can you charge $350/hour for editing, or charge $2500/week for an Avid. Then again, back then, an Avid ran $95,000 - $200,000. Yes, things are cheaper now...you can edit on a laptop and hard drive, but that will still run you $4000 or so. So bill for it. $50 a week...even $25. But bill for it.

I'm damn sure that the company's that are hiring you charge for everything they do. Corporate clients, real estate people, grocery stores, lawyers. Ask them if they are only billing for their hours...and not including overhead in their costs. People would laugh at you.

No, businesses do EVERYTHING THEY CAN to pay less. Send production overseas...cheaper labor, cheaper location rentals. They do what they can to lower the cost of labor..and then say "I saved X dollars! where's my bonus!" Stick to your guns, say "I cost this much," and bill separate for the kit fee. If they ask why they need to pay for that, say "to pay for the equipment I use on your project. This much for me, this much for my equipment. If you want to only pay me...you aren't going to get anything in return, because I can't use my equipment."

They might come back with "But X company over there is cheaper, they aren't charging for their equipment."

Let them go to them. See how long that company actually stays in business. Or see how low the quality is..and the client might come back to you. I have done this...I have been asked to do a job, told I was too expensive. So I said, "sorry, but that's my cost....me and my equipment." "But they are cheaper!" "Go to them." 2 months later, they came to me to fix what the other company did. Work was sub standard due to the inexperience of the editor, and they lacked proper equipment to do the job right.

Yeah, it might hurt to not get the job. I've been there, been living off scraps. But you can't give in. Once you give in, then you set client expectations and they NEVER pay you what you are worth, or for the equipment costs, so you are taking that out of your pay. Meanwhile, they are making more money because they saved money on you...and now they expect EVERYONE in that area to charge the rate they are getting you for.

I need a whisky.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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greg janza
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 7:24:20 pm

Shane, you should give motivational speeches to those entering the business.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/tmprods
tallmanproductions.net


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Mark Suszko
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 13, 2019 at 1:59:27 pm

Preach it, Brother Shane!


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Herb Sevush
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 5:29:40 pm

[Steve Connor] "Camera Owners must be laughing their heads off at all the Editors angst about the cost of the Mac Pro"

Which is why I don't want to own a camera. But the difference is I don't charge for my editing rig; having the latest Mac Pro won't allow me to up my fee, or attract new customers. It will only make financial sense to buy it if I can save $10,000 (or will it be 12K ?) of my time over the next three years, which I don't know that it will do. I'm probably a lot older than you and can see the end of my career on the horizon; if I knew I would still be doing this work 5 years from now it would be less of an issue.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Steve Connor
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 5:49:03 pm

[Herb Sevush] "But the difference is I don't charge for my editing rig"

Have I missed something over the last few years?, are we not charging out our edit systems any more? Why? is it competition driving the price down so people can't charge?

I don't bill much for kit, but I do charge!


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Herb Sevush
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 6:00:56 pm

[Steve Connor] "Have I missed something over the last few years?, are we not charging out our edit systems any more? Why? is it competition driving the price down so people can't charge?"

It's been that way in NY for years and years, actually since FCP Legacy made it's in-roads. Most editors at home work on laptops like Bill, how much can they charge for a laptop? If I want to edit with big screens, external broadcast monitors and high end GPU's that's considered my choice and no one is going to pay me more for it. Hell, many facilities now are nothing more than desks with laptops, an iMac is considered an exgravagence.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 6:08:13 pm

[Herb Sevush] "But the difference is I don't charge for my editing rig"

OK, I don't understand that argument. I get that in your case, you may be charging a package price including complete creative services. But, if you are a freelance editor and not charging a kit fee for a laptop system or an hourly rate for a home studio, then you have only yourself to blame. A day rate for a home studio - editor + gear/room - should be minimum of $1K-2K/day in most medium US markets. If you aren't charging that, then you are really on a slippery downward slope.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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greg janza
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 6:30:23 pm

[Oliver Peters] "if you are a freelance editor and not charging a kit fee for a laptop system or an hourly rate for a home studio, then you have only yourself to blame. A day rate for a home studio - editor + gear/room - should be minimum of $1K-2K/day in most medium US markets. If you aren't charging that, then you are really on a slippery downward slope."

Perhaps your market allows for this added charge but larger markets like NY, LA, and San Francisco don't allow for this at all.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/tmprods
tallmanproductions.net


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Herb Sevush
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 9:04:24 pm

[Oliver Peters] "I get that in your case, you may be charging a package price including complete creative services. "

Yes, that's part of it, if I'm not producing my own work the I do mostly flat bids for directing and editing and I don't break out anything - no hourly or daily rates; it's all in. But when I was still freelancing more widely many of the companies I worked for had their own crappy laptop editing systems for me to work on, but I could convince them to let me work from home if it didn't cost them any more. It is definitely worth my sanity to pay for my own gear to improve my editing experience, which includes an occasional afternoon nap on my hammock which is one of the more productive uses of my time.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 9:28:51 pm
Last Edited By Oliver Peters on Jun 6, 2019 at 9:30:04 pm

[Herb Sevush] "which includes an occasional afternoon nap on my hammock which is one of the more productive uses of my time"

LOL. More power to you! I think that's all valid, however, you can't really extrapolate to a larger market in that way. So even though you personally wouldn't be able to justify the new Mac Pro, that doesn't mean that others can't.

I'm in the same boat; however, I wouldn't say that some of the companies I work for won't pull the trigger by the end of the year. Budgeting $10-12K for a moderate version of this machine is not off the table for them. Remember, if you got 10 years of life out of the old MP tower, you can reasonably expect the same on this one.

Amortized over 10 years (even with some interim updates), this Mac Pro makes more sense to me that paying $1K for an iPhone ☺

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Herb Sevush
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 10:18:21 pm

[Oliver Peters] "LOL. More power to you! I think that's all valid, however, you can't really extrapolate to a larger market in that way. So even though you personally wouldn't be able to justify the new Mac Pro, that doesn't mean that others can't."

True that.

I'm not denigrating the new MacPro, I'm just pissed that once again Apple does not have me in mind, and while I am singular I am not unique, as contradictory as the might sound. I've learned long ago that every time I think I've come up with something original there are at least 10 people who have got there before me. It's a big country out there and even a tiny niche like mine has a lot of occupants.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Brett Sherman
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 7, 2019 at 12:01:03 pm

[Oliver Peters] "A day rate for a home studio - editor + gear/room - should be minimum of $1K-2K/day in most medium US markets. "

Of course this brings up the point of if you're charging by the day or hour what's the financial incentive to speed up the process slightly with a Mac Pro? Do you think clients will be convinced to pay a higher day rate because you have a slightly faster Mac? I don't think so. In these cases, the smart money is on a well-fitted iMac (not even iMac Pro).

Even if in Herb's case you bid out whole projects. Unless you're turning down other projects that you could take on with a slight speed boost in productivity, the financial incentive for getting the fastest possible machine isn't there either.

The Mac Pro is a machine for workflows that do not work well with existing Mac hardware.


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 7, 2019 at 12:07:20 pm

[Brett Sherman] "Of course this brings up the point of if you're charging by the day or hour what's the financial incentive to speed up the process slightly with a Mac Pro?"

Possibly to preserve your own sanity ☺

[Brett Sherman] "the financial incentive for getting the fastest possible machine isn't there either"

I don't think it's a matter of replacing what you have, just because something new is out there. You replace a machine when the time is right - it's too old, it has problems, you want to run newer software, your video requirements get more demanding, etc.

So then when it is time to make a change, you pick the best machine to match your business projections. Do you have 10 years of productive and improving (or at least not decreasing) business prospects? If so, then maybe this machine becomes attractive. If not, there are plenty of alternatives from Apple and elsewhere.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Herb Sevush
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 7, 2019 at 1:07:11 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Possibly to preserve your own sanity ☺"

There's nothing possible about that, it's definitely the reason. That's why I spent 1K on my chair, and it's why hammock breaks are part of my working day. I've spent too long working in situations we're I'm fighting my own gear as I'm fighting the clock, it leads to sleeping on facility couches and rising bleary eyed to unproductive outcomes. I've often said that an editor's best, most creative tool is time spent away from a project, to that I will add a positive working environment.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Brett Sherman
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 10, 2019 at 1:25:35 pm

[Herb Sevush] "There's nothing possible about that, it's definitely the reason. That's why I spent 1K on my chair, and it's why hammock breaks are part of my working day. I've spent too long working in situations we're I'm fighting my own gear as I'm fighting the clock, it leads to sleeping on facility couches and rising bleary eyed to unproductive outcomes. I've often said that an editor's best, most creative tool is time spent away from a project, to that I will add a positive working environment."

I too spent about that on a chair (though used I got it for $600). My chair has lasted 20 years though and will continue to do its job until I retire. Depending of course on the media you're working with, I just don't see that the 2019 iMac versus the new Mac Pro will be a definitive difference in life. Sure, if you're editing RAW multicam. But drive speed is really going to hit you there. And don't render breaks do exactly what you want? Time away from the machine.

If I look at what frustrates my workflow the most, it's not processing power. It's disk speed, it's NAS weirdness, it's the machine not doing what it has handled easily previously, it's software bugs, it's OS bugs. Maybe when the machine ships and I see what it can actually do, I'll be convinced otherwise.


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Winston A. Cely
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 4:29:54 pm

In other words, there's no middle ground? You either get a cheaper system that can be upgraded externally via crazy fast Thunderbolt, or crazy expensive system that lets you upgrade internally. You can't get a sorta cheap/expensive product that lets you upgrade internally.

I don't know. It sounds as if it is more of a question of ideas or specific notions of how things should be rather than Apple failing to provide tools for every level of professional use.

Granted, as a teacher, I can't afford a regular iMac let alone an iMac Pro. Fortunately, teaching at a CTE school, we're able to get our students and our instructors the tools they need, which in a couple of years will be iMac Pros for the students and a Mac Pro for me.

Winston A. Cely
ACTC Media Broadcasting Video Instructor
Apple Certified Editor FCPX 3

"If you can talk brilliantly enough about a subject, you can create the consoling illusion it has been mastered." - Stanley Kubrick


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Herb Sevush
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 5:22:25 pm

[Winston A. Cely] "In other words, there's no middle ground? You either get a cheaper system that can be upgraded externally via crazy fast Thunderbolt, or crazy expensive system that lets you upgrade internally"

With Apple there are no options in the middle ground. Plenty of people love working on iMac's. I'm not one of them. In the PC world you can fine/make/buy any option you want, but my clients are Apple only and I'm stuck with the limited choices Apple offers. Again, they're not bad computers, they're just not for me.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Tom Sefton
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 7, 2019 at 2:33:05 pm

Will definitely be investing in one. Or two.

If Red are on-board for the hardware acceleration with the afterburner card, that will be a massive boost in performance with the sweet spot for most post houses being a 16 core with a Radeon II and an afterburner card.

Almost bigger than the Mac Pro, is the display. 6K HDR, 1000nits with colour accuracy for grading, and £5k - are you kidding? A panel we use for grading cost £8000, does 1080p maximum, weighs a tonne and didn't come with a stand either, and yes the stand cost more than you would expect!

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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Michael Hancock
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 7, 2019 at 2:57:52 pm

[Tom Sefton] "6K HDR, 1000nits with colour accuracy for grading, and £5k - are you kidding?"

I would hold off on being too excited about using the monitor as a proper color grading monitor until it's in the wild and has been tested for color accuracy. With no SDI in, there's no real way to get an untouched video signal into it.

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 7, 2019 at 3:15:22 pm

[Michael Hancock] "With no SDI in, there's no real way to get an untouched video signal into it"

The display is the most puzzling of this release. Apple is positioning this as a UI display, which seems quite odd at its price post. As a separate grading display, it might make sense, if you add an BMD card to get it a signal. In that sense the price point is attractive.

However, I agree, you should wait to see it in the wild. At the moment, I'm VERY unhappy with the iMac Pro displays. They are the most inaccurate displays in our shop, compared with Retina iMacs, and older Apple displays. Far too red, saturated, and contrasty to make any accurate video judgements.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Tom Sefton
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 7, 2019 at 5:39:39 pm

Blackmagic have already released a Quad SDI to Mini DisplayPort converter to get into the apple monitor - interesting.

I agree that it shouldn't be purchased as an expected full grading panel to replace what is already there, but in the landscape of high resolution, high quality monitors, this one looks fantastic. I've tried the Dell equivalent 8K one and its awful. The LG 5K one is nice, but nothing in between.

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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Bill Davis
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 9:39:10 pm

[Bernard Newnham] "So in the wider world, what's it for?
"


Productivity.

We've already seen that for software like BlackMagic Resolve and FCP X — software that's largely been rewritten in the past decade - it can run SIGNIFICANTLY faster on modern hardware than the older NLEs legacy code can.

So you can get more work done more easily and faster.

In the new MacPro approach, there's a specific solution (Afterburner) that moves the transcoding load off of both the CPU and the GPU and onto a special programmable processor that is designed to eliminate playback bottlenecks.

So it's primarily a play for efficiency and speed with current workflows - and a play to get ahead of the coming wave of high raster content headed our way via the 8K cameras on the horizon. (There was a prototype Canon in the C-500 form factor class demo'd at the WWDC event.

That's the core of the story, anyway.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 6, 2019 at 11:15:07 pm

[Bill Davis] "In the new MacPro approach, there's a specific solution (Afterburner) that moves the transcoding load off of both the CPU and the GPU and onto a special programmable processor that is designed to eliminate playback bottlenecks.
"


I think it should be noted that this is an extra-cost option. And it's essentially what RED did with their RED Rocket cards years ago, and now again through their deal with NVIDIA. It's a nice addition, but frankly, ProRes/PRRAW was not a heavy lift on Apple hardware to begin with. Let's see if people develop for it beyond those codecs.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 7, 2019 at 6:28:31 am

[Oliver Peters] "Let's see if people develop for it beyond those codecs."

Craig Federighi on John Grubers latest Daring Fireball WWDC video interview specifically said the Reason they created Afterburner in the form of a flash programmable ASIC was so that they could re-code it “at will” to do other things apart from accelerating and moving ProRes and ProRes RAW processing off both the CPU and GPUs.

It sounded to me kinda like they already have a variety of “white board stage” use cases they are looking at.

Time will tell.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Bernard Newnham
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 7, 2019 at 10:25:47 am

As Bill says, it's all about productivity - and paying the mortgage, sending your kids to school, etc. In the US, you unlucky people, paying your medical bills. Thank God for the NHS, I've used it a good bit in the past few years.

Anyway - productivity, and profit. You need the cheapest gear that will do the job effectively, in this case editing. Long ago I used to spec this sort of thing for the BBC. Customer loyalty - or drinking someone's Kool Aid - wasn't part of the equation in any way at all. I bought a G4 on a BBC budget because FCP was the best editing system ever.

Some people have to do lots of editing on a laptop to earn a crust. I have, but it's something I really don't enjoy. I want two big screens, a decent sound system, a comfy chair. Already I've started the desired spec. How much will I pay for the comfy chair? As little as possible, provided it does its job. Who will make it? Who cares? How much am I going to pay for the magic box on the floor here that allows me to create art - or just hang a few shots together? As little as possible in order to get the job done. Clients don't give a stuff about what gear you have, any more that what car you drive.

So what kind of magic box do I want? If I was making feature films, a reasonably fancy one - but I would want to spec it myself, and probably build it too. A pretty box wouldn't be part of the deal. If I'm not making feature films, and I'm not, I don't need something that will run 8k with effects in real time, so I can cut the price I pay considerably. If I build, or have built, an appropriate pc, I can have an infinite choice of components to fit whatever spec level I need at the time. If I was starting from scratch the software would be Resolve, quite obviously, because it's a class act in rapid development, and free. Don't care about the operating system as long as it works - I've used lots of them. A pretty box still isn't part of the deal.

It's 25 years since I first built a pc . It's easy, like doing Lego, and the results are very very reliable. Since the first ones were for our production unit at the BBC, and we were turning out two half hour arts shows a week on a tiny budget, they needed to be.

So - I would have thought that anyone in business who want to make a profit, really doesn't care who makes the gear, only that it does the required job. I passed through the Apple world as an independent a few years ago now - a G4 and two successive Hackintoshes. From standing on the outside it's a prohibitive small world, with big walls, like some religious cults. Why pay for some massively over-specced pc in a fancy box running a different operating system (with no CUDA), when you can have whatever you want tomorrow, or the day after, probably for rather less money?

As Bill says, it's about productivity, and profit. I look forward to the first buyer of this machine coming on here telling us how amazing it is - of course it is, it must be because you paid a fortune for it.

Bernie


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Tony West
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 7, 2019 at 2:28:18 pm

[Bernard Newnham] "Clients don't give a stuff about what gear you have, any more that what car you drive. "

They "give a stuff" about what kind of car you drive in they have to ride in it. If you pick them up at the airport and your car can't get them to the job, yeah...... they would care.

They care what type of gear you have also. They will request a certain type of camera and some will even say they want it shot at a certain frame rate and if you can't do that you're out. When you say "gear" you must be talking strictly about the computer you are cutting on.

I see the new MP as an investment. I'm looking at that machine as something I could run for the next 10 years or likely longer. I'm guessing that's why it cost so much. They know people are gonna sit on it for years like the old one so they need to get paid now.

I also look at long term dependability. My last grader has been solid every day for years and that's what I expect from this new one. I want to be able to do high level work on this machine well into the future. I'm not just looking at now, I'm looking way down the road.

I would think that the resale value of the new MP would be higher than some pc I snapped together myself, if I had to guess.

Since you know about our healthcare system (hopefully soon to be improved) you ought to know that a machine like that is a tax write-off here. You just hand the receipt for that box to your accountant at tax time and get a lot of money back.

People were happy with their graders. They wanted another one. They gave it to you.

Btw, if you get that monitor you likely won't have to buy another one of those for a long time either. Also a write-off.


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Bill Davis
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 7, 2019 at 4:15:11 pm

[Bernard Newnham] "As Bill says, it's about productivity, and profit. I look forward to the first buyer of this machine coming on here telling us how amazing it is - of course it is, it must be because you paid a fortune for it."

This is ABSOLUTELY true.

But it's equally true that the great gear generally separates itself from the crap gear, regardless of any counter narratives swirling on-line.

Of course, that theory is being sorely tested across society at large now, with lots and lots of economically interested parties attempting to peddle narratives totally at odds with any factual basis in reality.

But even that has ALWAYS been the case. Heck, we're not still worshiping Zeus (in most cases!😉) so people do eventually tire of stories that tend to have little basis in reality.

I probably will never personally have a use case for a new MacPro that makes economic sense for my practice. But the use case for FCP X is utterly proven to me every single day in terms of clearly identifiable increased productivity.

And I'm guessing that the Metal re-write supposed to be happening with X as we speak, will pay handsome dividends in even MORE productivity for me on the refreshed laptop that's looming on my purchase list.

So I'm pretty happy with these WWDC announcements. Onward and upward!

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Herb Sevush
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 7, 2019 at 4:24:03 pm

[Bill Davis] " Heck, we're not still worshiping Zeus (in most cases!😉) so people do eventually tire of stories that tend to have little basis in reality."

Thank you for this one Bill. Speaking not as a supporter of Hellenic mythology, but merely as someone who has enjoyed your jousting with metaphors over the years, I will enjoy this for the days ahead.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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greg janza
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 7, 2019 at 5:00:26 pm

[Bill Davis] "So I'm pretty happy with these WWDC announcements. Onward and upward!"

Bill, you missed your true calling which is being a politician. You swiftly sidestepped the main issue of cost and redirected the focus to FCPX. Well played.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/tmprods
tallmanproductions.net


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Bill Davis
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 7, 2019 at 5:27:06 pm

[greg janza] "Bill, you missed your true calling which is being a politician. You swiftly sidestepped the main issue of cost and redirected the focus to FCPX. Well played."

There IS no "issue of cost" for anyone who's been in this industry as long as I have.

During my career I've used SINGLE HMI lights that cost $15,000 a pop. So don't tell me that an entire editing SYSTEM that costs maybe 3 times that will be a stopper for ANYONE serious about their career.

And, those dollars were back when dollars were worth HUGELY more than they are today.
Jeez, today a regular menu price CHEESEBURGER meal at a casual restaurant is typically between $10 and $15. When I was paying those prices for gear early in my career, that meal ran about $3.50.

The basic problem today is that the entire industry has grown ridiculously accustomed to getting everything so DIRT cheap that they have almost entirely decoupled the value of thing from the idea of paying for that value.

Hell, one PVW level Betacam cost what the ENTIRE fully spec'd out MacPro system just announced is being sold for today.

So it ain't the money, kids. It's the attitude. You don't THINK you can afford that - so you can't. Someone down the street thinks they CAN buy the tools and transform them into a profit center - so THEY will. This has been the same story forever. Some folks have always seen a market case for owing $150,000.00 production suites - and made that work. Same with $65,000 Cameras. Same with $30,000 Red Cameras, same with EVERYTHING.

Playing or NOT playing is hardly EVER about money. It's about vision and attitude and searching out ways to make your work life what you believe it can be.

And it's NEVER been easier to reach that level than it is today - and Apples WWDC announcements HELP make that possible. Not hurt it in ANY way.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 7, 2019 at 5:46:22 pm

[Bill Davis] "The basic problem today is that the entire industry has grown ridiculously accustomed to getting everything so DIRT cheap that they have almost entirely decoupled the value of thing from the idea of paying for that value."

LOL. Channeling your inner Bob Zelin?! Get off my lawn!

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Steve Connor
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 7, 2019 at 6:45:19 pm

[Bill Davis] "The basic problem today is that the entire industry has grown ridiculously accustomed to getting everything so DIRT cheap that they have almost entirely decoupled the value of thing from the idea of paying for that value.
"


Amen to that


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Herb Sevush
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 7, 2019 at 7:04:36 pm

This is a truly wonderful rant coming from someone who has always, until now, celebrated the liberating effects of the no-cost video world of today - FCPX being part of that world, buy once at $295 and never pay for an upgrade again - the iPhone as a democratizing tool for video makers the world over - man the barricades.

And now, screw 'em if they can't pony up the big bucks, "why you should have seen the Atlantic Ocean in the old days, that was an ocean, not like this pantywaist puddle we have now..."

Who exactly is the dinosaur at this point Bill.

[Bill Davis] "Hell, one PVW level Betacam cost what the ENTIRE fully spec'd out MacPro system just announced is being sold for today. "

Which is why I bought the much cheaper UVW line ..." what noise, I don't see any noise."

[Bill Davis] "So it ain't the money, kids. It's the attitude. "

No, it's the money. It's always the money. The greatest words of wisdom I ever heard was "follow the money." I think one of the Marx Brothers said that, not sure if it was Karl or Groucho.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Steve Connor
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 7, 2019 at 7:09:31 pm

[Herb Sevush] "UVW line ..." what noise, I don't see any noise.""

I definitely saw noise, no worse than the PVWs though :)


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Shane Ross
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 7, 2019 at 7:24:37 pm

[Herb Sevush] "This is a truly wonderful rant coming from someone who has always, until now, celebrated the liberating effects of the no-cost video world of today - FCPX being part of that world, buy once at $295 and never pay for an upgrade again - the iPhone as a democratizing tool for video makers the world over - man the barricades."

That's because according to Bill, Apple can do no wrong. Like ever. Bill, I like you, i've eaten pizza with you, you are a genuinely good guy. But the constant cheerleading for absolutely EVERYTHING Apple does is...too much. I mean, I like Apple, but have issues with FCX, and the new Mac Pro. I had issues with old FCP 7, that I loved, and based my career on. I love working on Avid...but there are many things about it that annoy me, and I'll point them out. And do so in hopes that they get fixed, so I'll love it even more.

It just seems that you can find no fault with anything Apple does...all...the...time. "FCX IS AMAZING! The only tool anyone should EVER consider, for anything! And they only charge $300, EVER. Great cost cutting savings, they are really aware of the lower budgets we have to deal with. Now, the new MacPro, it's a powerhouse and another win for Apple. Yeah, it's expensive, but things were a lot more expensive back in the day. When we had a 5MB hard drive that you had to put into a semi trailer to move."

yes, I'm being snarky. But that is the annoying thing, Bill. You don't ever ever find anything wrong with Apple, ever. They are always perfect, always do the right thing, can do no wrong. That us what rubs us wrong....at least me.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Bill Davis
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 7, 2019 at 8:27:33 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Jun 7, 2019 at 8:33:59 pm

[Shane Ross] "They are always perfect, always do the right thing, can do no wrong. That us what rubs us wrong....at least me.
"


I understand, Shane.

But flip it.

Do you EVER push back at the legions who no matter WHAT Apple does, they MUST tell everyone exactly how they've got things totally wrong? (Cough, cough, FCP X, The MacPro, overpriced iPhones, Desktop units that are WAY to expensive to succeed.... etc. etc. etc. etc.)

All I'm doing is saying that if one brain can disregard EVERYTHING Apple does that might be in any way CORRECT in order to advance an agenda that says they are no good - you can't really criticize any brain that takes a path 180 degrees opposite from that can you? Two sides of the EXACT same coin.

Either those "Apple is all bad" voices are fair — or they aren't. And if they are, you MUST accept that the mirror side of the coin is voices that parrot "Apple is all good" in the EXACT same fashion.

I got into these discussions because that's what LEGIONS of people were saying.
FCP X is ALL BAD. Period. End of story. And I still run across those guys on the web every single day.

So sorry, but at a base level - perhaps I'm no better or worse than someone on the other side. But which of us annoys YOU is really not about us - it's exclusively about you. And I'm OK with that. If THEY got to annoy me, I reserve the right to annoy them right back.. As you discovered over pizza - I don't do this in places where a meaninful, nuanced discussion is likely to take place. I do it HERE. Where the most extreme FCP X nay-sayers set up camp early and plied their poisoned rhetoric for years. They were, however, wrong back then. And they are still wrong today. Even tho they're all over the webs having fun now mocking the fact that the new MacPro is apparently TOO professional with too professional a price for their tastes. Such is life

Take care.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Shane Ross
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 8, 2019 at 1:01:25 am

[Bill Davis] "But flip it.

Do you EVER push back at the legions who no matter WHAT Apple does, they MUST tell everyone exactly how they've got things totally wrong? (Cough, cough, FCP X, The MacPro, overpriced iPhones, Desktop units that are WAY to expensive to succeed.... etc. etc. etc. etc.)"


Yes...the people who bad mouth every single thing Apple does is JUST as bad. Trollish, really. I mean, why are you here if all you are going to do is say, "Apple sucks" and offer nothing fruitful to the discussion.

[Bill Davis] "Either those "Apple is all bad" voices are fair — or they aren't. And if they are, you MUST accept that the mirror side of the coin is voices that parrot "Apple is all good" in the EXACT same fashion."

I feel the aren't...so that means I DON'T have to accept the mirror of that. I swear, you sound like an Apple PR person, only saying the greatest things about Apple and how everything it does is good. The fact that you can't seem to find ANYTHING to grumble about is mystifying to me. Even the most ardent Apple supporters will have some gripe about something.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Shane Ross
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 8, 2019 at 1:04:59 am

And you just seem like a total "YES" man, just saying how great and amazing Apple is, all the time.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Bill Davis
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 7, 2019 at 8:48:43 pm

[Herb Sevush] "This is a truly wonderful rant coming from someone who has always, until now, celebrated the liberating effects of the no-cost video world of today"

Thanks for the compliment, but you must be mistaking me for someone else. I make my living making video - so I'm no down with the "no cost video world of today." What I'm TOTALLY down with is tools that help me make more money, faster. Which has EXACTLY been my experience with X!




[Herb Sevush] "No, it's the money. It's always the money. The greatest words of wisdom I ever heard was "follow the money." I think one of the Marx Brothers said that, not sure if it was Karl or Groucho.
"


Pretty sure "follow the money" was Deep Throat to Bob Woodward in the garage during Watergate.

Still, here you are.

Don't I remember you as one of the loudest voices bitching about how FCP X wasn't good enough for "professional use" year after year?

I guess what you were ACTUALLY saying is that Apple didn't care to deliver something ideal for the exact type of editor YOU needed them to care about. Which, I suppose has proved true.

What they delivered is something for editors which significantly greater needs than you - a machine basically TOO professional for you.

Welcome to the great middle.

You will survive. And be confident you will still have LOTS of things to complain about going forward!

Be well.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Herb Sevush
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 7, 2019 at 9:26:42 pm

[Bill Davis] "Pretty sure "follow the money" was Deep Throat to Bob Woodward in the garage during Watergate."

Pretty sure you're right, although my attribution was funnier.

[Bill Davis] "Don't I remember you as one of the loudest voices bitching about how FCP X wasn't good enough for "professional use" year after year?"

Nope. It wasn't good enough for professional use for the first year. After that it was a matter of taste, but year after year I did complain whenever you tried to make the case that it was the best and fastest NLE ever, but since you've backed off on that front these last few years I now only get to rile you up when you start talking about Zeus.

[Bill Davis] "I guess what you were ACTUALLY saying is that Apple didn't care to deliver something ideal for the exact type of editor YOU needed them to care about. Which, I suppose has proved true. "

Indeed.

[Bill Davis] "You will survive. And be confident you will still have LOTS of things to complain about going forward!"

I've never been disappointed with the world's ability to disappoint me.

(I think I said that. )

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Michael Gissing
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 8, 2019 at 12:17:36 am

[Herb Sevush]"Pretty sure you're right, although my attribution was funnier."

Gold. I got it and laughed a lot.

This has been a most amusing thread and brought a few back to entrenched positions to slaughter metaphors and trade their particular truisms. If nothing else Apple has delivered on what they said for pros and I'm certainly happy with that. If only because it was getting increasingly uncomfortable for those cheering on the Apple side so the debates can now continue.


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Brett Sherman
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 10, 2019 at 1:33:52 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Which is why I bought the much cheaper UVW line ..." what noise, I don't see any noise.""

Now you can get DVW decks for about the same price as a UVW deck! I know I bought like 3 of them recently for an archiving project. If the deck stopped working, I just plunked down $300 for a different one. I think people are just happy that you paid the shipping to get it out of their house.


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 7, 2019 at 11:55:35 am

[Bill Davis] "It sounded to me kinda like they already have a variety of “white board stage” use cases they are looking at. "

Probably. I would imagine that RED would be one of the first. Maybe also BMD for Blackmagic RAW.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Ronny Courtens
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 7, 2019 at 9:10:21 pm

Agreed. And I think we will see some interesting announcements from Red and BM about the new MacPro by IBC.

As to the price topic: I totally disagree that there is an issue with the price of the new MacPro. Certainly not within the circles I frequent, which clearly are the target audience for this machine. Everyone I have spoken with since Monday has confirmed that they are very impressed with the new MacPro and they will buy one or more of them. One client will be purchasing 28 units as soon as they are available (they currently use a mix of 2012 and 2013 MacPros). It looks like the 16-core model with the Radeon Pro Vega II Duo and possibly an Afterburner card (depends on the workflows) is considered to be the sweet spot for many of those people. No-one I have spoken with is considering the base model.

But I do respect the opinion of anyone who says this MacPro is not for them. That does not mean there is anything wrong with it, or with its price. It just means that it does not fit within their business model. And that's not a problem at all, there are many other offerings on the market that will fit their needs.

I also agree with Herb and Brett that Apple should consider making a mid-level version of this machine, at a starting price point that will appeal to a larger audience. Whether this will happen or not, we will have to wait and see. But, if they would do this, then we could truly say that "the Cheese Grater" is back.

- Ronny


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 8, 2019 at 8:54:34 pm

A bit more PC vs Mac Pro analysis.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/how-much-mac-pro-cost-as-pc/

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Eric Santiago
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 9, 2019 at 1:02:49 am

Thanks, Oliver.
After reading the reviews, this workstation is overkill for most.
I've been waiting on this to refresh my (day job) departments 2013 Mac Pros.
Most of them for graphics design with some minor stints in MoGraph.
Now for myself, it's perfect.
Would love to have that for Maya, Resolve, Pro Tools and all NLEs.
But sadly, my day job, the graphics team comes first.
I am hoping there is an in-between model in a tower case next year.
Our nMPs are hanging on for dear life :)


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 9, 2019 at 1:09:44 am
Last Edited By Oliver Peters on Jun 9, 2019 at 1:14:25 am

Loaded iMac Pro or PC. The iMac Pros or even a loaded iMac would be perfect for graphic design. If you want the best performance for AE without breaking the bank, then $4-6K (plus displays) will get you a PC that will outperform the iMP because of Nvidia/CUDA options. We are using iMPs, but a PC with a 2080 card will benchmark much faster.

Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Eric Santiago
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 9, 2019 at 1:17:24 am

[Oliver Peters] "Loaded iMac Pro or PC"

I considered the iMac Pro but the designers gave up one of their Apple displays for a 32" Dell due to reflection issues.
I don't think I can convince them to switch to PC at their level.
I for one can use the power but my config would piss off everyone ☺
I def will buy one for my own company but that'll have to wait till after my renos :P


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 9, 2019 at 1:22:04 am

Get them a loaded Mini with an eGPU Pro 😀

Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Eric Santiago
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 10, 2019 at 11:26:02 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Get them a loaded Mini with an eGPU Pro 😀
"


I would have to look into that.
I already made the call and told them that the Mac Pro is way overkill.
I am sacrificing myself since this means I won't get one till a nMP dies at work.
Which hasn't happened (a dozen since 2013) yet.
Now for home, I would have to wait to see what the extras will cost.
Now if we want a real debate, how about we start with...how much should that AfterBurner cost?
Man I remember the ICE cards loaded on the same box as our Avid Meridien.
That was expensing then.


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 10, 2019 at 11:37:03 pm

[Eric Santiago] "Man I remember the ICE cards loaded on the same box as our Avid Meridien."

I'm a veteran of both the ICE card and the RED Rocket-X card. What's interesting is that in spite of FPGA, the RED Rocket-X card was still made obsolete by changes in RED's own color science. And FWIW - the RAW DeBayer quality looked different using the RR card versus CPU. Not better or worse, just different.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Eric Santiago
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 11, 2019 at 11:56:26 am

[Oliver Peters] "And FWIW - the RAW DeBayer quality looked different using the RR card versus CPU. Not better or worse, just different."

I stayed at DMSC1 (just ROCKET no X). Used mostly for dailies maybe for playback.
And once FCPX was able to handle R3Ds, I rarely counted on the card.
I have a few collecting dust, (in a CUBIX) made obsolete by time.

I hope this Afterburner card isn't a one year pony.


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Bill Davis
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 11, 2019 at 6:54:41 pm

[Eric Santiago] "I hope this Afterburner card isn't a one year pony."

Not sure how it could be.

The whole point of an FPGA is that you can easily re-configure it to point it at accelerating other types of footage handling if your needs or formats shift.

As such, I'd expect this approach would have an extremely long life expectancy.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 11, 2019 at 7:09:51 pm

[Bill Davis] "As such, I'd expect this approach would have an extremely long life expectancy."

This may be different, but as products go, that hasn't been the track record.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 11, 2019 at 9:06:00 pm

[Bill Davis] "Not sure how it could be.

The whole point of an FPGA is that you can easily re-configure it to point it at accelerating other types of footage handling if your needs or formats shift.

As such, I'd expect this approach would have an extremely long life expectancy."


Until off the shelf computers can achieve 'good enough' results w/o needing to buy special-purpose hardware that requires specific support in order to be utilized.

That was the gist of the desktop video revolution was it not?


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Joe Marler
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 11, 2019 at 10:40:37 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Until off the shelf computers can achieve 'good enough' results w/o needing to buy special-purpose hardware that requires specific support in order to be utilized.

That was the gist of the desktop video revolution was it not?"


The problem is certain higher-end video tasks have outstripped the capability of general-purpose CPU hardware, at least to the extent Intel is willing to commit. E.g, Xeon does not have hardware-acceleration for Long GOP formats, so Apple had to put that in the T2 chip due to the iMac Pro and (maybe) Mac Pro -- even though the MacBook Pro has Quick Sync and doesn't need it.

A full-custom ASIC (like the T2) is very expensive to design and has long lead time. The cost of a custom ASIC must be amortized over very large production runs, yet many customers might not need that capability. E.g, T2 is a security chip but there was likely no other place to put the transcoding logic so it went there. That probably consumed valuable transistor budget that could have been spent on other things.

By contrast an FPGA implementation is much quicker and cheaper to design, and can be targeted to just the systems that need it. But FPGAs burn more power so are not suitable for a laptop. They can be reprogrammed in the field with new algorithms. If it becomes important to have hardware support for Google's AV1 codec, that could be added to deployed machines.

It appears the main reason for the Afterburner FPGA board was hardware acceleration for demosaicing high-resolution ProRes RAW, but it's plausible it could also be programmed for RED RAW, and it's not limited to that. They can even be used to accelerate Long GOP formats like H264 and HEVC.

Apple is not the first to use FPGAs for specific video processing needs:

https://www.streamingmedia.com/Articles/ReadArticle.aspx?ArticleID=129580

https://www.xilinx.com/products/intellectual-property/1-4iso32.html

However it could give Apple a proprietary hardware performance advantage. Even if they expose the Afterburner capability via an API to other Mac app vendors, this won't work on a PC. A PC vendor would have to fund, design, support and rally software vendors to a similar device. Economies of scale could give Apple an advantage, even for the "niche" 2019 Mac Pro. They might sell more Afterburner cards in 6 months than the total historical sale of RED ROCKET cards. Plus it's a single-vendor hardware/software solution with a single support source. A high-end customer would not have to do three-way conference calls between RED, Microsoft and HP.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 11, 2019 at 11:40:50 pm

The potential is obviously there, but how much will it cost? How quickly will Apple expand support to other codecs? Will there be APIs so any third party can program for it? If Afterburner is a super-niche product how many third parties will actively support it?

I don't doubt the performance of Afterburner, but the perceived cost/benefit is going to determine whether or not it's a 'game changer' or just a really expensive piece of niche hardware for what's widely seen as an already expensive workstation.


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Michael Gissing
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 12, 2019 at 6:42:20 am

[Bill Davis]"Not sure how it could be."

I've had many FPGAs in my equipment over the years. Fairlight upgraded my original card after about nine years. My latest FPGA from them is currently compatible with Fairlight in Resolve but for how long, I don't know. However that is audio and they are monster processors for that purpose so have lasted much longer. In video, two of my Blackmagic cameras have FPGA cards on board. My three year old Ursa Mini has an older card that can't be upgraded with the latest firmware. So three years was all I could get before the software over ran the capabilities of the card. Given the fast moving world of codecs and pixel aspects and depths, it is conceivable that an FPGA card might not last any longer than two to three years. Is the Afterburner upgradable? Unfortunately my camera isn't but the Fairlight card is PCIe so yes it can be if required.

FPGAs are just processors and that world moves just as fast. Their capacity to be reprogrammed make them flexible for sure but not any more able to withstand development of processors and demands.


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Dom Silverio
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 10, 2019 at 1:22:39 pm
Last Edited By Dom Silverio on Jun 10, 2019 at 3:08:26 pm

Apple going with Xeon W line bring clear delineation to its product line but at the expense of flexibility. i7/i9 and Gold/Platinum lines clearly compete with the W in terms of performance, often better.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/13116/the-intel-xeon-w-review-w-2195-w-2155-...

The downside to going with the i9 is lack of ECC memory and 4 less PCIe lanes. I don't think this is a deal breaker for most unless you are planning a fully loaded 2019 MP to begin with.

2019 MP is about the same price as HP z8G4 but less flexibility.


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Ronny Courtens
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 10, 2019 at 3:42:49 pm

This is one if the best write-ups I have seen about the new technologies in the 2019 MacrPro, and why they matter. It was written by Sarah-Kimberly Euschen, a Swiss friend who lives and works in Doha (Qatar). She is a brilliant editor who is also very tech-savvy. Someone whose opinion I respect a lot:

https://themagicalworldofsakie.wordpress.com/2019/06/10/infinity-fabric-and...

- Ronny


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Steve Connor
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 10, 2019 at 5:29:36 pm

[Ronny Courtens] "She is a brilliant editor who is also very tech-savvy. Someone whose opinion I respect a lot:"

Excellent article, thanks for posting. This is the bit that should provoke most debate ☺

"The comments of – I can build a faster Hackintosh system or faster PC system my self are not to be taken serious. The power of Infinity Fabric as a hardware novelty should be clear by now and can not be copied at current state of affairs to self made systems, neither can the Afterburner unit."


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Dom Silverio
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 10, 2019 at 7:01:18 pm

[Steve Connor] ""The comments of – I can build a faster Hackintosh system or faster PC system my self are not to be taken serious. The power of Infinity Fabric as a hardware novelty should be clear by now and can not be copied at current state of affairs to self made systems, neither can the Afterburner unit.""

Yeah that is hard to quantify because NVidia is NOT allowed with 10.14 or newer Macs.
So you can't use an NVidia GPU with NVLink.

And I would guess that Infinity Fabric is not a big factor in a more "modest" 2019 MP - i.e. single or dual GPU and not the 2xDual GPU config.


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 11, 2019 at 12:52:08 pm

Some more PC numbers to compare from Boxx. Scroll down on this page.

https://www.boxx.com/data-science-workstation

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Eric Santiago
Re: The Cheese Grater is back
on Jun 11, 2019 at 12:58:53 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Some more PC numbers to compare from Boxx. Scroll down on this page.

https://www.boxx.com/data-science-workstation"


We had a few of them still working here as part of a renderfarm (Maya).
They are built like tanks compared to the HPs were forced to use (corp).


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