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Is it Adobe or Premiere Pro?

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David Mathis
Is it Adobe or Premiere Pro?
on Dec 23, 2018 at 6:13:28 pm

I just came across this on You Tube today. Thoughts?







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Oliver Peters
Re: Is it Adobe or Premiere Pro?
on Dec 23, 2018 at 6:31:35 pm

Poorly veiled pitch to promote Resolve training.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Herb Sevush
Re: Is it Adobe or Premiere Pro?
on Dec 24, 2018 at 1:43:14 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Poorly veiled pitch to promote Resolve training."

But still there is more than a kernal of truth here. For "Indy" or student filmmakers, without a reliable cash flow, spending the money for Ppro is not something I would recommend either. It is also fair to be disappointed with their rate of development compared to Resolve, especially because the subscription paradigm was partially sold on the idea that it would fuel Ppro's faster development. I'm neither a student nor an Indy, and my clients are totally Adobe, so for now I'm content to keep working with it, and sending in my bug and feature requests, but the video made reasonable arguments.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is it Adobe or Premiere Pro?
on Dec 24, 2018 at 1:59:06 pm

[Herb Sevush] "But still there is more than a kernal of truth here. For "Indy" or student filmmakers, without a reliable cash flow, spending the money for Ppro is not something I would recommend either"

Sure. But in that situation, free is always attractive. And Resolve is a solid editor, though not at the top of the heap in that regard. Of course, I'll skip the part about them being able to stay current in the newest phone plan ☺

[Herb Sevush] "It is also fair to be disappointed with their rate of development compared to Resolve"

I wouldn't agree with that. Updates have been steady with PPro. Given that they are now working with an established base, you can't develop too quickly in such a way as to disrupt workflows. Same boat as Avid. So development is steady but incremental.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Eric Santiago
Re: Is it Adobe or Premiere Pro?
on Dec 24, 2018 at 2:10:35 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Updates have been steady with PPro."

But why is every upgrade breaking some basic workflows for most?
I have gone back one version almost every update.
Too much too list.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is it Adobe or Premiere Pro?
on Dec 24, 2018 at 3:01:49 pm

[Eric Santiago] "But why is every upgrade breaking some basic workflows for most?"

I haven't had the same experience.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Herb Sevush
Re: Is it Adobe or Premiere Pro?
on Dec 24, 2018 at 3:22:03 pm

[Oliver Peters] "So development is steady but incremental."

I don't find it incremental so much as indiscriminate. They're jumping around to whatever the latest fad is - HDR, 360VR, instead of fixing and improving the features they already have. And once they've brought out a feature they rarely improve it - Lumetri being a notable and welcomed exception. Take Warp Stabilizer - it's useful, but there are any number of improvements they could make - a bounding box for example or the ability to keyframe into and out of the effect - but nope, they've brought it out and just like any non-subscription service, bringing out a new, sometimes half-baked feature seems to be more important than improving already existing features. I thought that this was something the subscription paradigm was supposed to address, but I see no difference between Ppro and any other NLE in that regard.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is it Adobe or Premiere Pro?
on Dec 24, 2018 at 4:39:12 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I don't find it incremental so much as indiscriminate."

I think it depends on the application you are focusing on. For example, with AE they have been in the process of streamlining and improving the performance of the app. This means a lot of under-the-hood changes. So a few versions ago some functionality was lost and they are slowly in the process of adding that back in. The alternative is Apple's "throw the baby out with the bathwater" approach, which is something neither Adobe nor Avid can afford to do.

Another example is Lightroom. The betting crowd is on Lightroom CC eventually replacing Lightroom Classic entirely. So we are going through a transition until the complete switch is feasible and works for the customer base.

[Herb Sevush] "bringing out a new, sometimes half-baked feature seems to be more important than improving already existing features."

I think that's true of every application. There are tons of things in X that haven't changed much (flaws and all) since the first version. From what I can tell, only Avid is actually on a path of feature "clean-up" with its monthly Media Composer updates.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Steve Connor
Re: Is it Adobe or Premiere Pro?
on Dec 24, 2018 at 2:44:57 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Poorly veiled pitch to promote Resolve training.
"


Not true, he makes some excellent points, especially about, pricing, Adobe installation software and dynamic link.

If After Effects wasn't so dominant I think Premiere's user base would be considerably smaller and Resolve would be making a much bigger impact than it is.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Is it Adobe or Premiere Pro?
on Dec 24, 2018 at 3:28:41 pm

[Steve Connor] "f After Effects wasn't so dominant I think Premiere's user base would be considerably smaller and Resolve would be making a much bigger impact than it is."

True, but that's like saying if it wasn't for the wheels my car wouldn't go as fast. AE/Photoshop/Premiere - and I would add Audition to this list - is what you get for your $50 monthly, and I would agree that AE & Photoshop are the jewels in the crown, but you don't get to slice and dice, this is the package under discussion. And this will be truer if/when the integration between them becomes tighter.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is it Adobe or Premiere Pro?
on Dec 24, 2018 at 4:40:52 pm

[Steve Connor] "Not true, he makes some excellent points, especially about, pricing, Adobe installation software and dynamic link.
"


Look at the owner of the page and video. It's a color-correction online training resource.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Steve Connor
Re: Is it Adobe or Premiere Pro?
on Dec 24, 2018 at 5:12:54 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Look at the owner of the page and video. It's a color-correction online training resource.
"


Doesn't mean his points aren't valid!


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Mark Suszko
Re: Is it Adobe or Premiere Pro?
on Dec 26, 2018 at 3:12:41 pm

Perhaps this is only anecdotal, but, the guy in the suite next door runs Premiere pro on a recent MacPro tower and he's experiencing a lot of crashes every day. Is five or six a lot? Seems like a lot to me. I run FCPX on a 6-year-old iMac pro and it's very stable. Not that it -never- crashes, but I get a crash maybe once every three days, which recovers in about a minute, and he's crashing hourly. He's not doing anything super-complex or challenging either. A lot of his crashes also end up with corrupted files at some point. There's too many variables involved to make a definitive judgement on his suite; it could be non-Adobe-related hardware issues, it could be he's not using best practices, could be a lot of things.

I will agree with the argument that Adobe promised more innovative features were coming to Prem Pro as a "benefit" of the subscription model. You look at some of their annual development events, where they sow some of what their lab's been working on, and they are demonstrating tools in the compositing and effects arena that are jaw-dropping. But I've been waiting to see some of those "almost ready for distro" features for like 2 years now, and maybe I missed the announcement, but they haven't appeared in AE or PPRo yet.

I can't afford to be too iconoclastic in this argument; I have to learn prem pro, as management policy decisions are forcing the shop to convert to it from FCPX, whether I like it or not. I will say from a personal perspective, I find Prem Pro more buggy, and more unnecessarily complex, and less "fun", than my user experience with FCPX. I'm definitely having to waste more time thinking about the tool and how to drive it, than using it to do the job, and thinking about the creative decisions of the job.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is it Adobe or Premiere Pro?
on Dec 26, 2018 at 3:47:09 pm

[Mark Suszko] "Perhaps this is only anecdotal,"

Yes, it is and also very atypical. I work at a shop with 9 edit stations running Premiere Pro, as well as my own machines at home. Mixture of Mac models. Hardly any crashes over many years. I would say that in my experience FCPX, Premiere Pro, Resolve, and Media Composer all crash at about the same rate. It really depends on project specifics and media types.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Steve Connor
Re: Is it Adobe or Premiere Pro?
on Dec 26, 2018 at 4:15:20 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Yes, it is and also very atypical. I work at a shop with 9 edit stations running Premiere Pro,"

Doesn't mean it's "atypical" I only have one edit station but I had a few crashes on a recent PPro project I worked on and I REALLY missed FCPX's save function when it did happen.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is it Adobe or Premiere Pro?
on Dec 26, 2018 at 4:53:44 pm
Last Edited By Oliver Peters on Dec 26, 2018 at 5:02:38 pm

[Steve Connor] "Doesn't mean it's "atypical" "

I don't mean to minimize these issues. But I live and work in a market with multiple corporations, production companies, and broadcasters with multi-seat Premiere Pro installations on both Macs and PCs. Premiere is probably the single most installed NLE in town, with Media Composer/NewsCutter a second. I have freelanced at some of them and I know editors and managers at all of them. In general, no one has ever mentioned this level of instability. Occasional crashes? Sure. Multiple crashes every day? Nope. There's clearly some issue causing this on that specific system or with those projects/media.

And for comparison, I've also recently had FCPX projects (libraries) where I couldn't get through 10 minutes of editing without a crash. And auto-save didn't necessarily catch everything. Certainly not the norm for me, but something about this one was causing issues.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Mark Suszko
Re: Is it Adobe or Premiere Pro?
on Dec 26, 2018 at 5:10:14 pm

I'm sure you're right, Oliver. And probably part of the success you see can be attributed to better practices and better setups. Our guys are all self-taught on Abobe, and our budgets, low. The gear is not cutting-edge. My observations of the crashes are anecdotal and not scientific. There are too many possible explanations for it and it's unproductive for me to go chase down exactly what all the factors are, much less convince the guys to adopt any fixes.

Nevertheless, it's a less than pleasant user experience from my POV. When or if I have fully migrated over to Prem Pro, I'll be working to make my system as stable as possible, and adjust my own practices to suit. I'll be looking for tips on that in days to come.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is it Adobe or Premiere Pro?
on Dec 26, 2018 at 5:20:16 pm

[Mark Suszko] "I'm sure you're right, Oliver. And probably part of the success you see can be attributed to better practices and better setups. Our guys are all self-taught on Abobe, and our budgets, low. The gear is not cutting-edge."

I feel your pain. Although I see the same level of user familiarity around town. Often the biggest culprit is the crappy media formats that are rampant in our business. While Premiere generally does well with native media of mixed sizes, codecs, and frame rates, that's often not the best or most reliable way to work. You might consider transcoding or using a proxy workflow for now and see if that helps.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Joe Marler
Re: Is it Adobe or Premiere Pro?
on Dec 26, 2018 at 11:23:14 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Often the biggest culprit is the crappy media formats that are rampant in our business. While Premiere generally does well with native media of mixed sizes, codecs, and frame rates, that's often not the best or most reliable way to work. "

Good point. This is one reason all NLE software tends to be more crash-prone than other software. It's like designing a car to run on 20 different types of fuel, none of which are filtered at the pump.

Why not filter it in the car (ie NLE)? Because (1) Checking each one costs performance and (2) The video header items often don't have simple valid vs invalid ranges. A good example is the metadata atom called "fiel" which is crucial to handling interlaced video. This is often mishandled by software. The complexity of the definition on table 4-2 of this page helps understand why: https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/QuickTime/QTFF/QT...

Usually NLE designers hope for the best and assume the "fuel" their software engine runs on is pristine. When it gets "contaminated" or is poorly formed by previous software, the downstream app can become unstable or crash.

Also the NLE is pushing all aspects of the underlying platform really hard -- CPU, GPU I/O, etc. In general my experience is FCPX seems a little more reliable than Premiere, but I've sometimes had FCPX crash five times a day for weeks. FCPX is critically dependent on the library database, yet there is no integrity checker utility like there is for client/server databases or even Lightroom.


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Bill Davis
Re: Is it Adobe or Premiere Pro?
on Dec 26, 2018 at 11:30:57 pm

[Joe Marler] "Also the NLE is pushing all aspects of the underlying platform really hard -- CPU, GPU I/O, etc. In general my experience is FCPX seems a little more reliable than Premiere, but I've sometimes had FCPX crash five times a day for weeks. FCPX is critically dependent on the library database, yet there is no integrity checker utility like there is for client/server databases or even Lightroom."

I had a spate of crashes with a particular project too.
Finally figured out it was a toxic font.
Switched all instances of that font to a similar one - and the constant crashing stopped.

These are complex interdependent systems. A problematic system could be caused by a a storage access issue, a hardware issue,, a RAM issue, or like in my case. a semi-toxic bit of code that rides along with one third party version of something like my font problem.

Oh well.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Joe Marler
Re: Is it Adobe or Premiere Pro?
on Dec 28, 2018 at 4:07:40 pm

[Bill Davis] "I had a spate of crashes with a particular project too.
Finally figured out it was a toxic font. "


I had another FCPX crash today. The crash log indicated it was the Imagenomic Portraiture skin-processing plugin. In this case I didn't even have a project open with that plugin, I was just importing a few stills.

You could argue that's not Apple's fault -- their code didn't crash, it was the 3rd-party plugin that crashed.

However when a software developer (Apple in this case) uses a non-sandboxed plugin architecture, the 3rd party code is running "in process", or within the address space of the host app (FCPX). Any error by any plugin can crash the entire host application. The more plugins, the greater the chance of a crash, since they must all be perfect to avoid crashing the host app.

I don't know what plugin architecture Premiere uses, but some of the crashes could be similarly due to 3rd-party code.

10.4.4, Portraiture build 1203, macOS Mojave 10.14.2, hardware: 10-core Vega64 iMac Pro


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Steve Connor
Re: Is it Adobe or Premiere Pro?
on Dec 26, 2018 at 5:15:21 pm

[Oliver Peters] "I don't mean to minimize these issues. But I live and work in a market with multiple corporations, production companies, and broadcasters with multi-seat Premiere Pro installations on both Macs and PCs. Premiere is probably the single most installed NLE in town, with Media Composer/NewsCutter a second. I have freelanced at some of them and I know editors and managers at all of them. In general, no one has ever mentioned this level of instability. Occasional crashes? Sure. Multiple crashes every day? Nope. There's clearly some issue causing this on that specific system or with those projects/media.
"


I'm sure you're right, I don't have a lot of experience recently with PPro, it's just my experience.

I also still find it's an absolute dog with 4K XAVC material when using a laptop Mac, whereas FCPX and Resolve are much faster. But again I'm sure with a fast system that is optimised for PPro it's much better.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is it Adobe or Premiere Pro?
on Dec 26, 2018 at 5:23:46 pm

[Steve Connor] "I also still find it's an absolute dog with 4K XAVC material when using a laptop Mac, whereas FCPX and Resolve are much faster. But again I'm sure with a fast system that is optimised for PPro it's much better."

Yes, I would agree with you there. It's a horrible format, but FCPX certainly does better with it natively. Although I must say, you can't use a laptop as a good measure of best performance. I cut on one, too, at home and on the road, but it's not ideal.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Steve Connor
Re: Is it Adobe or Premiere Pro?
on Dec 26, 2018 at 6:52:12 pm

[Oliver Peters] "you can't use a laptop as a good measure of best performance."

Yes, but as a reference point it works, both Resolve and FCPX work well with XAVC on my system. PPro doesn't.


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Tony West
Re: Is it Adobe or Premiere Pro?
on Dec 27, 2018 at 5:24:17 am

[Steve Connor] " I REALLY missed FCPX's save function when it did happen."

I'll will give X credit, in the times it has crashed I have never lost anything. It's always come back up from day one.


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greg janza
Re: Is it Adobe or Premiere Pro?
on Dec 26, 2018 at 4:27:40 pm

[Oliver Peters] " I would say that in my experience FCPX, Premiere Pro, Resolve, and Media Composer all crash at about the same rate. It really depends on project specifics and media types.
"


This is absolutely true. PC's crash, Mac's crash, FCPX crashes, Avid crashes, Premiere Pro crashes and Resolve crashes. I've gone through periods of time in which one program crashed less frequently but the truism is that computers crash.

Tallmanproductions.net | Windows 10 Pro | i7-5820k CPU | 64 gigs RAM | NvidiaGeForceGTX970 | Blackmagic Decklink 4k Mini Monitor |
Adobe CC 2019 13.0 | Renders/cache: Samsung SSD 950 Pro x2 in Raid 0 | Media: Samsung SSD 960 PRO PCIe NVMe M.2 2280 x 2 | Media: OWC Thunderbay 4 x 2 Raid 0 mirrored with Resilio


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