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Off The Tracks review

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Oliver Peters
Off The Tracks review
on Oct 8, 2018 at 2:34:46 pm

An interesting critique:

https://www.redsharknews.com/post/item/5846-off-the-tracks-fcp-x,-for-all-i...

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: Off The Tracks review
on Oct 8, 2018 at 3:10:06 pm

(Chuckle)

A “review” of a creative work that says almost nothing about the actual creative work it purports to review?

Interesting approach.

And perfect in its own way.

What Off the Tracks does more than anything else is point out that the FCP X kerfluffle was never actually about the program itself very much at all - but about how the programs existance made different editors “feel.”

Ignored, slighted, empowered, confused, joyful, angry — it was a Rorschach test about the editor, him or herself, mostly.

The X launch confused everyone.

Some editors were moved from confusion to anger or disgust.

Others were moved from confusion to fascination and delight.

Powerful stuff.

And so it goes.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Steve Connor
Re: Off The Tracks review
on Oct 8, 2018 at 3:45:26 pm

[Bill Davis] "What Off the Tracks does more than anything else is point out that the FCP X kerfluffle was never actually about the program itself very much at all - but about how the programs existance made different editors “feel.”
"


You're right it wasn't about the program, it was about Apple suddenly EOLing a piece of of software used by millions with no path to upgrade projects. Which made Editors "feel" angry :)


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Neil Goodman
Re: Off The Tracks review
on Oct 8, 2018 at 7:45:00 pm

I watched out of curiosity and because I thought/ think its completely insane that someone went and spent their's and other people's money on something to merely validate their NLE choice.

Any info here is widely covered in the last 7 years on pick your internet forum with nothing but blank optimism and here-say to look forward to.

Hard to call it a "Documentary" per se but more like a network clip show IMO. Too much bias.

Decently made, but really not sure who this is for? More preaching to the choir and circle jerking for the people that are already adept at doing that?


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Shane Ross
Re: Off The Tracks review
on Oct 8, 2018 at 7:52:39 pm

[Steve Connor] "it was about Apple suddenly EOLing a piece of of software used by millions with no path to upgrade projects"

Not sure it was millions PLURAL. I don't think Apple hit 2 million until FCX came out.

BUT, that, IMHO, is a fair assessment. They did change the software to meet the needs of a majority of it's users....and I will hazard that most of the users of FCP-X aren't professional editors, but hobbyists, or even those who are content creators for things that do make money, but they themselves aren't only editors, but have multiple hats. One thing I did get from the forums are the sheer number of people who didn't need all of the professional features that FCP pretty much required in order to work...transcoding to an editing codec, external monitoring for example. They just wanted/needed drag and drop editing and to do a few simple things...but also have great graphics for lower thirds (inclusion of Motion templates). So all of this "you need to transcode" and "do your clip settings match your sequence settings" and "are you using drop frame timecode" was too much for them.

Yes, a LOT of professional editors use FCP-X...I'm not saying that. I still hazard that most of the users (without any stats to back this up...it's opinion)...aren't professional editors, but do produce a lot of content (a lot that might be paid). FCX happens to fit the needs not only for those who aren't professionals, and just want to get a quick video out there...but it also does serve the needs of many professional fields as well. THus why now it's in the millions of users (plural) range. Something I can say that Avid is not. Avid no doubt doesn't exceed 500K users...if even that.

Not that number of users is a measure of success. Just saying.

Shane
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Michael Gissing
Re: Off The Tracks review
on Oct 8, 2018 at 11:13:44 pm

I don't know where the idea that a documentary must give balance to dissenting voices came from. I guess a lot of docos use this as part of the boring 'must have conflict' mantra that many commissioning editors at broadcasters insist is a core thing in a doco. Frankly I am so over this one trick story arc that I don't consider a critique claiming a lack of dissent is a deal breaker.

When it comes to an actual story though, I remain to be convinced that this is a great yarn. I haven't seen the doco but I'm prepared to give it an honest look. Some of the most interesting docos I have worked on are niche and not necessarily in areas I am already interested in. But a good story well told is always worth a look.


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Tony West
Re: Off The Tracks review
on Oct 14, 2018 at 2:24:47 pm

[Shane Ross] " I will hazard that most of the users of FCP-X aren't professional editors, but hobbyists, or even those who are content creators for things that do make money, but they themselves aren't only editors, but have multiple hats."

I think that mostly has to do with changes in the market place. In my opinion you need to "have multiple hats" to stay marketable out here these days.

I think many people on here are as old as me and know how things were in this biz back in the day.

Clients came to the production houses for 3 main things 1. shooting 2. editing 3. writing

They needed shooting because cameras were expensive and so was editing. I can still remember the first time I was working for a production house and a producer broke out his laptop and adaptors and wanted the footage brought in on the spot after the shoot.

He said he was going to cut it "himself" on this program called FCP. I saw the writing on the wall right then and there. Many people were not going to need the production house for editing in the future. I wasn't going to lock myself into one job in this industry.

Soon camera prices dropped also and many didn't need the production house for anything.

People I remember cutting in FCP early in those days weren't folks who didn't know what they were doing. They were people who had been working for years in the biz that saw a way to cut cost. That's it.

Not needing "external monitoring for example. " to me is a result of people not having the client in a big room so they can watch. People just cut in a small room on their own these days. Even on feature films. It's been years since someone sat next to me.

Apple put people in their homes to cut with FCP a long time ago. X just took it to another level.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Off The Tracks review
on Oct 8, 2018 at 11:48:36 pm

[Bill Davis] "Ignored, slighted, empowered, confused, joyful, angry — it was a Rorschach test about the editor, him or herself, mostly.
The X launch confused everyone. "


I think the release of FCPX was just a culmination of what was perceived by many in the professional video community as the last move in Apple's extraction from engagement with the professional industry. That tainted the application beyond the qualities of the software itself. Had there still been an Apple Color, Shake, Final Cut Server, Xserve or Xserve RAID, among others, the perception might have been different. FCPX might have been judged a bit more on its merits. But as it turned out, FCPX was the icing on the cake for many in a community that thought Apple had an emotional connection to them (which no corporation really does).

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: Off The Tracks review
on Oct 9, 2018 at 2:45:15 pm

Well, with the benefit of 7 years of hindsight, those who analyzed it as “Apple no longer cares about pros” were being pretty stunningly short-sighted.

Roles wasn’t exactly designed for home movie shooters.

Few Weekend Warriors need ruthlessly optimized code that runs fast and stable, just to create their vacation videos.

And all that Rec2020 and ProRes RAW plumbing seems like s bit of a stretch for editors seeking improvement on their next cat video.

“Giving up on pros” started out as a canard - and remains one.

And so it goes.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Off The Tracks review
on Oct 9, 2018 at 2:48:16 pm

[Bill Davis] "Few Weekend Warriors need ruthlessly optimized code that runs fast and stable, just to create their vacation videos.
And all that Rec2020 and ProRes RAW plumbing seems like s bit of a stretch for editors seeking improvement on their next cat video. "


Clearly you don't interact much with successful YouTube/Instagram "influencers".
And performance helps sell hardware, which is Apple's main interest.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: Off The Tracks review
on Oct 9, 2018 at 2:53:58 pm

[Bill Davis] "“Giving up on pros” started out as a canard - and remains one."

It seems you misread the post. My point was that it was that perception by many that drove the reaction. The "jilted lovers" that used FCP7 ☺ After all, it was people who liked or used FCP 1-7 who were mad. Especially facility owners. People in the Avid or Adobe fold really had very little problem with what Apple was doing, because it wasn't their tool of choice anyway.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Shane Ross
Re: Off The Tracks review
on Oct 9, 2018 at 6:42:49 pm

[Bill Davis] "Well, with the benefit of 7 years of hindsight, those who analyzed it as “Apple no longer cares about pros” were being pretty stunningly short-sighted."

Yes...we are. We have ZERO historical reference in which to base this on (Shake). No reason to think that Apple puts general consumers (iWatch, iPad, iPhone) over professionals (no MacPro update in 5 years...iMac Pro simply a band aid, limited expandibility...MacBook Pro, form more important than function, slimness over better cooling for faster processors). There's simply NO REASON we should ever doubt Apple doens't care about professionals. #sarcasm.

[Bill Davis] "Roles wasn’t exactly designed for home movie shooters."

No, it's implimented for professionals. I've said before, FCP-X is great for consumers (cheap, easy to use) and good for professionals (cheap, easy to use, useful features...buy add-ons when/if needed).

[Bill Davis] "And all that Rec2020 and ProRes RAW plumbing seems like s bit of a stretch for editors seeking improvement on their next cat video."

Yes...things they are adding later. Almost as if it were an afterthought...because of massive blow back from professionals. Oh, yeah...ProRes RAW, only works with Apple...no third party. As stated, with over 2 million users, you have a wide base, ranging from cat video makers to broadcast TV. But really...how many cat videos do you suspect were cut with FCX, opposed to cut with Avid? I'm going to wager the favor is in Apple's court on that one. BUT I AM NOT CALLING FCP-X NON-PROFESSIONAL. Just noting that it is used by more than professionals. And again, I'll wager that the vast majority of users who use it aren't professional editors. not saying they might not use it for monetary gain...some might. But I will wager most users are home users. But there are no stats on that, I know. IMHO

[Bill Davis] "
“Giving up on pros” started out as a canard - and remains one."


They bought Shake...then killed Shake. Why? To grab the image stabilizing technology for...wait for it...iMovie! Yeah, they have a great track record with Pros lately. Release a MacBook Pro that throttled the processor...only fixing it AFTER huge blowback. Apple makes its money on consumer goods, not professional ones. Ever since it shifted focus from pro users to consumers, it went from a niche company with 5% computer market share to the biggest company in the world. So, being a business, with this in mind, where will you put a majority of your focus?

Shane
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Bill Davis
Re: Off The Tracks review
on Oct 10, 2018 at 12:14:12 am
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Oct 10, 2018 at 12:15:45 am

[Shane Ross] "Release a MacBook Pro that throttled the processor...only fixing it AFTER huge blowback. "

Seems to me there’s been a “big blowback” EVERY single time Apple released anything at all.
Antenna Gate
Trashcan MacPro Gate
Headphone Jack is Gone Gate.
Overheating Gate
Laptop Too Thin Gate
Screwed up Color Correction Gate
EOLed My Favorite Program you Swine Gate
Touchbar SUCKS Gate.
And on and on and on...

It’s a wonder they make any money at all.

OR.

As I’ve noted since 2011 when FCP X moved out of boxes and on-line - it’s simply an era where hardware is virtualized for testing and then iterates generation by generation as thebindustry developes - but software is ALWAYS an evolving work in progress - so when functional flaws get discovered when the stuff finally gets its real-world shake out - they get addressed.

And THAT is simply the new normal we all live in.

I bought my Wife a 12” Macbook two years ago - cuz she wanted something basic and super lightweight to carry on location in her shoulder bag. It was an odd compendium of weird design decisions that were worthy of head scratching wonder. I thought at the time that since it was fanless and totally silent -when she was done with it - I might make it a purpose dedicated VO recording hub. And that it’s fanless design might let me record at my desk without messing with soundproofing.

That didn’t work out.

BUT, looking back she got two years of solid general computing service out of it and toted it onto sets where it helped her earn at least 20 times its cost.

So was that machine a success or a failure in that context?

I suppose It depends on what you’re looking for.

And so it goes.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Shane Ross
Re: Off The Tracks review
on Oct 10, 2018 at 12:28:29 am

[Bill Davis] "I bought my Wife a 12” Macbook two years ago - cuz she wanted something basic and super lightweight to carry on location in her shoulder bag.... looking back she got two years of solid general computing service out of it and toted it onto sets where it helped her earn at least 20 times its cost.

So was that machine a success or a failure in that context?"


Success. MacBook...MacBook Air. PERFECT for her and many others. This is why there are different models. MacBooks and Airs for one purpose, MacBook Pros for another. One that demands more processing power, better GPU, so better fans and cooling. Don't tell me that you don't understand this...I know you do. We ate pizza together. because you also said.... "I suppose It depends on what you’re looking for." EXACTLY!! I would like a Mac Laptop for professional video toolsets...thus I need a fast processor, good GPU, non-throttled...good cooling. Bulk doesn't matter to me, I prefer it be bulkier to accommodate that.

If people want slim and cool...HEY, they have that with the MacBook and Air. TWO OPTIONS! So give us professionals one option. Too much to ask? Apparently so. They make more money from consumers than professionals. GOBS MORE. Why do I like Avid and Adobe over Apple? Because professional video and audio and graphics is their MAIN FOCUS.

[Bill Davis] "It’s a wonder they make any money at all."

Because they cater to the majority of their customers...as I stated before. Consumers...who will buy their products despite all this, and one big DRIVING factor is..."cool factor."

Shane
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Michael Gissing
Re: Off The Tracks review
on Oct 10, 2018 at 12:48:03 am

I reckon this thread has totally gone "off the track". Hardly unusual if we are too quick to line up behind our partisan flags. Hardly a debate though, just nay-saying.


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Bill Davis
Re: Off The Tracks review
on Oct 10, 2018 at 9:52:53 pm

[Shane Ross] "I would like a Mac Laptop for professional video toolsets...thus I need a fast processor, good GPU, non-throttled...good cooling. Bulk doesn't matter to me, I prefer it be bulkier to accommodate that.
"


But Shane, that's EXACTLY what I have and it serves my needs as a Professional Video Producer perfectly. The only difference might be that I rely on a well coded, optimized piece of editing software that doesn't cause my workflow to choke. I can work with 2K and 4K right now including LOG and ProRes RAW without my laptop missing a beat.

I TOTALLY get that some editors want to cut with AVID or Premier. But it appears that the main problem is that THOSE programs are simply NOT currently powerful enough or optimized enough for Apple Hardware - the same way FCP X currently IS.

SO you're saying that it's APPLES requirement to NOT do what they want to do (which is offer solutions that are TUNED to the hardware and software choices they own) and manage to satisfy some of the most demanding users on the planet - in order to accommodate users of OTHER software solutions that they have absolutely no control over?

That makes no sense.

Davinci Makes a track based editing program that handles video perfectly well on current Macs including Laptops. I'd merely ask you why can't AVID and Adobe do the same?

The answer appears to be that their business model simply doesn't allow them to do what Apple did and jettison the old stuff and re-create their software to run more efficiently on a more modern hardware and code foundation.

How is that Apple's fault?

Apple has acknowledged publicly that they are planning for a new (presumably) flame thrower desktop unit.

Their laptops ALREADY approach desktop computational performance. (Hell, I understand even their PHONES, and iPads have managed THAT in terms of pure computational speed!)

So at some point, doesn't the problem get down to those other NLE software vendors NOT keeping up with THEIR customers needs - rather than it being something to blame Apple for?

Maybe I'm wrong. I'm NOT a hardware guy. But chasing fatter, more power hungry, more horsepower originated hardware might NOT be the ONLY way to get higher speeds. It just might be ONE of the PC industries favored processes.

Heck, maybe we can take a hint from boating. It's not boat with the largest engine that always goes fastest. If it was, ocean liners would beat everything. It's the boat that matches a bunch of fluid dynamics, weight to power ratios, hull strength and OPTIMIZED everything - not just ONE thing - that gets those trophies.

Maybe there's a lesson there.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Shane Ross
Re: Off The Tracks review
on Oct 10, 2018 at 10:32:48 pm

[Bill Davis] "I TOTALLY get that some editors want to cut with AVID or Premier. But it appears that the main problem is that THOSE programs are simply NOT currently powerful enough or optimized enough for Apple Hardware - the same way FCP X currently IS."

Shows that Apple doesn't care about any other editing professionals OTHER than the ones who use Apple products. "Hey, it works with OUR software...there must be something wrong with yours." Closing the ecosystem even more. Nice.

[Bill Davis] "SO you're saying that it's APPLES requirement to NOT do what they want to do (which is offer solutions that are TUNED to the hardware and software choices they own) and manage to satisfy some of the most demanding users on the planet - in order to accommodate users of OTHER software solutions that they have absolutely no control over?"

Used to be a time when they made hardware for ALL creative professionals...not just those who use their stuff. We can see that more and more they are only caring about themselves, and not their userbase. Which is, I guess, perfectly capitalistic of them, so makes business sense. But can you now see why many of us who used to be served by Apple, and who now are in that group that Apple could give two shits about, feel a little miffed?

[Bill Davis] "Davinci Makes a track based editing program that handles video perfectly well on current Macs including Laptops. I'd merely ask you why can't AVID and Adobe do the same?"

Guess you haven't been using Resolve enough. Yeah, it works, with certain codecs, editing codecs. Throw H.264 at it...10-bit H.264? Maybe Red Raw 4K...and it'll start to choke. Add two spendy GPUs to it, and it'll do better.

[Bill Davis] "So at some point, doesn't the problem get down to those other NLE software vendors NOT keeping up with THEIR customers needs - rather than it being something to blame Apple for?"

Nope. Avid is keeping well in tune with our needs, thank you. But making hardware that's not ideal for quite a few workflows, thus turning many to PCs...sadly...because Windows still sucks.


Anyway...OFF THE TRACKS was, IMHO, an independent marketing film made for Apple by Apple fans. I know docs need to have a perspective. This one just seemed like a large marketing piece.

Shane
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Bill Davis
Re: Off The Tracks review
on Oct 11, 2018 at 4:57:14 pm

[Shane Ross] "Shows that Apple doesn't care about any other editing professionals OTHER than the ones who use Apple products. "Hey, it works with OUR software...there must be something wrong with yours." Closing the ecosystem even more. Nice.
"


Well...
In what way does Adobe or AVID "care about editing professionals OTHER than" the ones that use THEIR products?
How is Adobe, with their once you start in Premiere, you MUST keep renting our software to make use of any of your prior effort - ANY different? Nor should it be. It's their playground. Walling it off is a smart business decision. Shouldn't that work all ways? AVID will allow what improves AVID. If that includes Cineform but does NOT include ProResRAW - so be it. Business moves on.


[Shane Ross] "Nope. Avid is keeping well in tune with our needs, thank you. But making hardware that's not ideal for quite a few workflows, thus turning many to PCs...sadly...because Windows still sucks."

Well, then at least THAT apparently isn't Apples fault! ; )


[Shane Ross] "Anyway...OFF THE TRACKS was, IMHO, an independent marketing film made for Apple by Apple fans. I know docs need to have a perspective. This one just seemed like a large marketing piece."

THIS I can speak to.

Made FOR Apple? No in any way, shape or form. Utterly NO WAY.

OFF THE TRACKS was made by ONE guy who was sitting in Utah and had an idea for a story that interested him. Period. It started as a purely personal labor of love and grew organically from there.

At the Creative Summit where he shot most of the initial interviews, it was a sleepy Brad by himself with a BlackMagic Production Camera, one lav mic and one light in the corner. The very definition of low budget, personal film making.

As he bootstrapped it and met more and more people in the X community, he CONVINCED lots of folks of his seriousness, but outside of a few mostly EX Apple guys who late in the process helped him connect with interesting players who were there in the early days (Ubillos, Cerf, some of the folks in Europe, etc), this was HIS deal from day one.

And Apple (while I'm SURE they were quite aware of what was happening, cuz I spotted a few in the early screenings) I know from talking personally with Brad that Apple did not editorially touch anything before, during or after.

I got to know Brad pretty well during the process. He would occasionally ask my opinion about things at the screenings and the ONLY advice I ever gave him was simply "this is YOUR story - don't listen to ANYONE who tries to tell you how to do it, myself included. Trust your gut and tell it the way YOU want to." And at every turn, that's exactly what I saw him do. Just Brad, working, learning and putting what HE found interesting on the screen.

Period.

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Shane Ross
Re: Off The Tracks review
on Oct 11, 2018 at 6:37:23 pm

[Bill Davis] "Made FOR Apple? No in any way, shape or form. Utterly NO WAY."

No, it wasn't funded by Apple or sanctioned by them. That's not what I meant. it's like...a "love letter" to Apple about FCP-X.

Shane
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Bill Davis
Re: Off The Tracks review
on Oct 12, 2018 at 3:55:11 am

[Shane Ross] "No, it wasn't funded by Apple or sanctioned by them. That's not what I meant. it's like...a "love letter" to Apple about FCP-X."

Well, I suppose that’s true in the same way Apollo 13 was a “love letter” to NASA -
And The Social Network was a “love letter” to Facebook.
Yet nobody seemed to have a huge issue with those, as I recall.

But a young filmmaker wanting to examine the roots of a piece of software in a creative fashion - no patience for that - cuz it’s...different, I guess?

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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greg janza
Re: Off The Tracks review
on Oct 11, 2018 at 7:01:28 pm
Last Edited By greg janza on Oct 11, 2018 at 7:02:42 pm

[Bill Davis] "OFF THE TRACKS was made by ONE guy who was sitting in Utah and had an idea for a story that interested him. Period. It started as a purely personal labor of love and grew organically from there. "

Bill it makes perfect sense why you'd be a strong advocate for the film since you're in it and the film is mainly focused on the theme that FCPX is a revolutionary piece of software that's simplifying and democratizing the industry.

I salute Brad for getting his idea from a story that interested him to a finished film that can be rented online. I've worked on several docs and I know that each and every doc is a herculean task to get made.

I also like FCPX. I had initial issues with the program but the few projects that I've worked on in FCPX have left me with a strong liking for the program and the architecture of it.

But I also think the criticism that has been raised in this thread about the film just being a glorified marketing piece is valid. The biggest failure of the film is it's lack of a diversity of industry perspective. I don't know if this was a matter of not being able to get access to Adobe or Avid team members to interview or if Brad really just wanted to stay insular to the FCPX world. To not have any post facility owners talking about the complications of signing onto FCPX and how that decision might affect their bottom line is a glaring omission. The film oversimplifies the myriad of reasons why many professionals jumped ship and went to Premiere and to a lesser extent Avid.

The film also suffers from having a lack of actual diversity. It's nearly wall to wall white males. I'd also argue that a cut-down version of this film (20-30 mins) could get a lot more people to watch it.

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Shane Ross
Re: Off The Tracks review
on Oct 12, 2018 at 12:32:45 am

[greg janza] "The film also suffers from having a lack of actual diversity. It's nearly wall to wall white males."

Yeah, I REALLY noticed that. I believe I counted two females in their entire list of people in the film.

[greg janza] "I'd also argue that a cut-down version of this film (20-30 mins) could get a lot more people to watch it."

I agree with this too. There are several times I thought it made it's point, and could have ended, but then went on. I agree, it could have been shorter, and still made it's point clear.

Shane
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Bill Davis
Re: Off The Tracks review
on Oct 12, 2018 at 4:21:58 am
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Oct 12, 2018 at 12:27:53 pm

[greg janza] "But I also think the criticism that has been raised in this thread about the film just being a glorified marketing piece is valid. "

So then it’s equslly fair to slam a film like say, Top Gun, as just a military recruiting effort?

My point is there are hundreds of films upon which we can overlay the criticism that they are just thinly veiled marketing pieces. Hell, doesn’t that describe the ENTIRE DC and Marvel universes, Transformers and the Harry Potter oveure, just to note four out of thousands?

The ONLY reason some of you apparently find this notable AT ALL is that Brads feelings about the topic run - in whole or in part - counter to your own.

Who knows, perhaps there’s someone out there as passionate about AVID or Premiere as Brad became about what he saw in FCP X.

If so, have at it.

😊

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Off The Tracks review
on Oct 10, 2018 at 11:26:10 pm

[Bill Davis] "I'd merely ask you why can't AVID and Adobe do the same? "

Actually they can. ProRes 4K 4444 or HQ is certainly better under FCPX, but the others can handle it. OTOH, DNxHD/HR or AVC-Intra codecs are better with Premiere or Media Composer than with FCPX.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Neil Goodman
Re: Off The Tracks review
on Oct 11, 2018 at 12:37:29 pm

[Bill Davis] "Davinci Makes a track based editing program that handles video perfectly well on current Macs including Laptops. I'd merely ask you why can't AVID and Adobe do the same? "



Im curious what makes you think Adobe and Avid don't work well on Macs? Kind of weird since Davinci notoriously takes significant more juice to run smooth than either of the two apps you mentioned?

Especially quirky statement as I can safely assume you have no first hand experience with either one, especially not in the last 7 years.


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Bill Davis
Re: Off The Tracks review
on Oct 12, 2018 at 4:31:13 am
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Oct 12, 2018 at 4:34:26 am

[Neil Goodman] "Im curious what makes you think Adobe and Avid don't work well on Macs? Kind of weird since Davinci notoriously takes significant more juice to run smooth than either of the two apps you mentioned"

Mostly just the constant kvetching I see about how Apple needs to beef up their “woeful” hardware in order to efficiently run those programs.

Reading about what seems like constant dissatisfaction on the PC side (let alone the laptop side of things) by others seems in pretty stark contrast to my experience on modest Apple hardware running X.

But I acknowledge it’s entirely anecdotal.

I’d you were to tell me there are legions of editors out there running PPro or MC on laptops as their primary day to day income producing tools, in the same fashion I’ve been successful on MacBook Pros with X — I’d have no reason to doubt you, really.

I just seldom hear that sort of talk. But that might just be me.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Joe Marler
Re: Off The Tracks review
on Oct 12, 2018 at 1:58:51 pm

[Neil Goodman] "what makes you think Adobe and Avid don't work well on Macs? Kind of weird since Davinci notoriously takes significant more juice to run smooth than either of the two apps "

I haven't tested Avid performance recently, but I just tested PP 12.1.2, Resolve 15.1.1 and FCPX 10.4.3 on my 2017 iMac 27. Each codec is a different case, but with 8-bit 4k H264 at 100 mbps, Resolve 15 is much faster than Premiere -- especially in timeline responsiveness without proxies. It's nearly as fast as FCPX. Resolve's "skimmer" is very responsive, far quicker than Premiere's "Hover Scrub".

Premiere at long last is finally using Quick Sync for H264 export, so it's roughly competitive with FCPX and Resolve on that one task. However Premiere doesn't use Quick Sync for decoding (only encoding), so timeline operations are very sluggish and laggy. It is so slow when doing JKL commands, it feels like the keyboard is broken.

Blackmagic has recently made tremendous progress in improving Resolve performance. It is shocking how fluid and responsive their "skimmer" is -- it feels almost like FCPX.

Even though FCPX is a real speed demon, when exporting 4k H264 to 1080p H264, Resolve 15 is actually twice as fast as FCPX, with both NLEs doing single-pass export at 20 mbps. Examination of the final material and studying the file header with Invisor shows Resolve isn't taking any short cuts -- the material is valid, good quality and plays OK. I don't know how they are reaching that performance level. On 4k H264 export, Resolve 15 and FCPX are roughly equal on a 2017 iMac, and Premiere is a little slower, but much faster than it used to be.

On all three NLEs IF you create proxies, they all feel fast. However both FCPX and Resolve 15 are fast enough on a 2017 i7 iMac 27 to smoothly edit a single stream of 4k H264 without proxies -- Premiere is not.


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Neil Goodman
Re: Off The Tracks review
on Oct 12, 2018 at 2:19:22 pm

[Joe Marler] "
On all three NLEs IF you create proxies, they all feel fast. However both FCPX and Resolve 15 are fast enough on a 2017 i7 iMac 27 to smoothly edit a single stream of 4k H264 without proxies -- Premiere is not.
"


I dont get into measuring such specifics like this. Im an offline creative editor at the core and rendering/exporting/codecs and all that dont mean a thing to me. I get handed a project - I edit the media in whatever form its given to me in, and then upon completion I hand it back to someone else and they do what they got to do to get it delivered. I pay no mind to what codec it is.

What I do know is that all 3 NLE's work damn near flawlessly on a 2010 Cheesgrater that I have at work and just as flawless at home on a 2017 peced up Imac. Things are quick snappy as as much as real 1:1 feedback as Ive ever gotten from software when I input commands. Thats what I consider fast. Software stays out the way while I make shit.

I understand everyone has different things they need to do but getting caught in these - my NLE can render this .2 seconds faster than yours stuff is toxic and at the end of the day is really meaningless when it comes to getting content out the door.


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Joe Marler
Re: Off The Tracks review
on Oct 12, 2018 at 4:40:31 pm

[Neil Goodman] "...Davinci notoriously takes significant more juice to run smooth than either of the two apps... I pay no mind to what codec it is...all 3 NLE's work damn near flawlessly on a 2010 Cheesgrater that I have at work and just as flawless at home on a 2017 peced up Imac....

NLE responsiveness can be very affected by codec and resolution. Using a low-compression all-intraframe codec at 1080p, almost any NLE on any hardware will feel fast.

Unfortunately lots of material today is shot on interframe 4k H264, and that is often difficult to handle. If you have the time to transcode all that to a mezzanine codec or proxies, it works well -- on nearly any hardware & NLE, including Premiere. Likewise if you're dealing with modest amounts of scripted narrative material, then playback performance when scrubbing through that may not be vital. But with high shooting ratios on large-scale field documentary, or news gathering, transcoding everything is not ideal.

Adobe realizes this so their Premiere intro video says: "allows editors to work with 4k and beyond, without time-consuming transcoding...whether it's a mobile device, action camera, DSLR or almost any other source", and "never needing to render until your work is complete" : https://helpx.adobe.com/premiere-pro/how-to/what-is-premiere-pro-cc.html?se...

Unfortunately Premiere does not handle 4k H264 "like mercury", at least on Macs. The playback engines in Resolve 15 and FCPX are much more responsive on the same hardware.

[Neil Goodman] "....but getting caught in these - my NLE can render this .2 seconds faster than yours stuff is toxic and at the end of the day is really meaningless..."

It's not about 0.2 sec render time difference. On my top-spec 2017 iMac 27, Premiere's viewer update rate when fast forwarding 4k H264 (at 1/4 resolution) can degrade to once every five seconds. Both Resolve 15 and FCPX update over 20 times per second, or 100 times faster. This is for various 8-bit 4k H264 material I've tested, including from the Panasonic DVX200, GH5, Sony A7RIII and DJI Inspire 2.


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Neil Goodman
Re: Off The Tracks review
on Oct 13, 2018 at 2:06:53 am

[Joe Marler] "It's not about 0.2 sec render time difference. On my top-spec 2017 iMac 27, Premiere's viewer update rate when fast forwarding 4k H264 (at 1/4 resolution) can degrade to once every five seconds. Both Resolve 15 and FCPX update over 20 times per second, or 100 times faster. This is for various 8-bit 4k H264 material I've tested, including from the Panasonic DVX200, GH5, Sony A7RIII and DJI Inspire 2."

Yea thats cool, whatever gets your motor humming. Just trying to put it out there that "fast" is relative to the user. While you may consider things like scrubbing footage with the least dropped frames and which NLE does it better, this is something thats never even crossed my mind.


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