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Craig Seeman
Blackmagic RAW
on Sep 14, 2018 at 10:13:16 am

Blackmagic RAW. Perhaps it's their "answer" to ProRes RAW.
Of course we can debate FCPX implementation.










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Craig Seeman
Re: Blackmagic RAW
on Sep 14, 2018 at 11:42:38 am

At this point I think it BMD has no reason to support ProRes RAW and will leave it to Apple to implement. I think the SDK is the gauntlet thrown. I don't think Apple will implement though.

If Apple doesn't it may push some people to move to Resolve. While clients don't care what you edit with, they do care about quality and if BMD RAW looks better than Apple ProRes (if you shoot with BMD cameras and many do) some productions may move from FCPX to Resolve.

Apple may facilitate Arri to implement in their cameras but short of that, I think this is a serious strike to FCPX in some markets where RAW may be important. Arri has its own RAW so that's not integral to Arri. I'm honestly not sure how Apple competes with this.



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Eric Santiago
Re: Blackmagic RAW
on Sep 14, 2018 at 11:54:05 am

A lot of maybes but man would you edit in Resolve today?

I tried, trust me I tried.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Blackmagic RAW
on Sep 14, 2018 at 2:33:25 pm

You tested the BMD RAW samples in Resolve 15.1 (just released)?
I'd have thought BMD would have tested that specifically.



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David Cherniack
Re: Blackmagic RAW
on Sep 14, 2018 at 12:43:50 pm

[Craig Seeman] "I'm honestly not sure how Apple competes with this."

I can't see it either. This another mind boggling leap from these magnificent freaks.

David
http://AllinOneFilms.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: Blackmagic RAW
on Sep 14, 2018 at 12:54:49 pm

A valuable difference between ProRes RAW in FCPX versus BMD RAW in Resolve (and potentially other apps) is that with BMD RAW, you have access to the RAW settings in post, just like with REDCODE RAW. ProRes RAW color processing happens after the DeBayer (demosaicing) step. Also, according to Grant's video, you can re-render to BMD RAW for consolidation/trimming of the clips.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Michael Gissing
Re: Blackmagic RAW
on Sep 14, 2018 at 1:29:58 pm

At 12:1 you are looking at files close to half the size of ProresRAW. I can now see why Grant was so dismissive of ProResRAW at NAB. The Blackmagic RAW is a vast improvement on both cDNG and ProResRAW. With an open SDK it isn't as proprietary as ProResRAW. I think cDNG and ProResRAW are going to languish. I doubt RED will embrace it but who knows if they and Arri might not offer it as an option instead of ProRes codecs.

Cross platform and open codecs are essential. I think ProResRAW is effectively an isolated format and likely to never gain traction. If X doesn't include BRAW it will also become isolated. I'm so looking forward to never using quicktime ever again.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Blackmagic RAW
on Sep 14, 2018 at 2:22:55 pm

[Michael Gissing] " if they and Arri might not offer it as an option instead of ProRes codecs."

I can certainly see Arri using it. I think a big question is licensing.
If the SDK encourages implementation in Avid and PPro then BMD RAW may be to their advantage.
What we don't know is if BMD intends to license the codec to other camera manufacturers.
We don't know the business model specifics.

Keep in mind BMD and Apple are businesses. Neither really are dependent on NLE sales for the bulk of their revenue.
Both Apple and BMD are really hardware companies.
Apple wants to sale computers (and phones).
BMD wants to sell cameras, switchers, grading consoles, capture/convertors.
Both may look at codec licensing as part of their business model.
If allowing BMD RAW into other cameras creates competition for BMD cameras it may mean Licensing is an alternate revenue stream. I don't think they're going to give that away. Giving it away to NLEs is a different story if it makes BMD cameras a more viable purchase because of a usable RAW workflow.

Apple can hold out implementing BMD in FCPX but I'm not sure what leverage they have at this point.
I can't see how ProRes RAW is preferable to BMD RAW for camera manufactures though.



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Michael Hancock
Re: Blackmagic RAW
on Sep 14, 2018 at 2:35:23 pm

From the Blackmagic website:

"Blackmagic RAW is the world’s only truly modern, high performance, professional RAW codec that is open, cross platform and free. The codec is supported via the free SDK on Mac OS, Windows and Linux systems. Best of all, there are no hidden licenses or ongoing fees. Blackmagic RAW has been designed to provide the industry with an open, elegant and standardized high quality image format that can be used across products and in customer workflows absolutely free!"

This is what ProResRAW should have been from day 1 if it wanted fast, widespread support/adoption.

[Craig Seeman] "If allowing BMD RAW into other cameras creates competition for BMD cameras it may mean Licensing is an alternate revenue stream. I don't think they're going to give that away. "

Go to 24:30 in the video. He says it may be possible to implement it in another camera, but doesn't commit to it.

I'm about 99.99% certain I'll get BlackmagicRAW files before I ever get ProResRAW. I downloaded the sample clips and have been playing with it a bit. It's impressive.

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


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Eric Santiago
Re: Blackmagic RAW
on Sep 14, 2018 at 3:33:49 pm

I honestly thought they should have had this done years ago.
I purchased two BMCC at the start and ended canceling due to their screwed up availability dates.
I am glad they have an option.
We all win :)


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Shawn Miller
Re: Blackmagic RAW
on Sep 14, 2018 at 6:05:58 pm

[Michael Hancock] "This is what ProResRAW should have been from day 1 if it wanted fast, widespread support/adoption."

Honestly, this is what I had always hoped for Cineform RAW - but I'm glad BMD is taking this approach. I think this increases the value of BMD cameras (that shoot BMDRAW) tenfold... now, if they would just bring it to the Ursa 4.6k cameras...

Shawn



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Michael Gissing
Re: Blackmagic RAW
on Sep 15, 2018 at 12:27:43 am

[Shawn Miller] "now, if they would just bring it to the Ursa 4.6k cameras..."

I certainly hope so and Grant says other BM cameras in the video. I am wondering if that is why DNx was dropped not so long ago. Leaving room for BRAW implementation? I see less need to have any ProRes flavours onboard with 8:1 and 12:1 RAW. They have clearly modeled this codec on the r3d with the metadata carrying info about how to display, so a Rec 709 look can be applied but still have access to highlight and low light recovery. Like REDs camera defined gammas, fully changeable in Resolve.

I wonder if Apple knew this was coming and rushed ProResRAW to the market half baked.


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Shawn Miller
Re: Blackmagic RAW
on Sep 15, 2018 at 4:21:24 pm

[Michael Gissing] "

[Shawn Miller] "now, if they would just bring it to the Ursa 4.6k cameras..."

I am wondering if that is why DNx was dropped not so long ago. Leaving room for BRAW implementation? I see less need to have any ProRes flavours onboard with 8:1 and 12:1 RAW."


I think that's a very real possibility. I was a little skeptical when Grant positioned BRAW as a replacement for cDNG and compressed video, but after playing with samples, it makes more sense to me now. I'm very impressed with what I've seen so far and I can't wait to shoot my own material in BRAW. I'm also cautiously optimistic that I'll be able to substantially reduce my reliance on ProRes.

[Michael Gissing] "
I wonder if Apple knew this was coming and rushed ProResRAW to the market half baked."


That's a good question... I thought it was odd that Apple released a raw format which doesn't give access to camera metadata like iso, color temp, white balance, ect., but people seemed to spin it as an ease of use feature - thinking about it though, PRR seems more half baked than easy to use.

Shawn



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Oliver Peters
Re: Blackmagic RAW
on Sep 21, 2018 at 6:26:26 pm

BTW - the App Store versions of Resolve's update that supports BMD RAW dropped today. Some initial testing with the few sample clips floating around look very promising. On a fast machine and with fast drives, performance is superb and really point to Resolve as a very functional NLE using native BMD RAW files. Better render times than with RED or large ProResHQ/4444 files. Way more and better color control of these files in Resolve than with ProRes RAW in FCPX.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Steve Connor
Re: Blackmagic RAW
on Sep 21, 2018 at 7:06:19 pm

[Oliver Peters] "On a fast machine and with fast drives, performance is superb"

On my 2015 MacBook Pro with Thunderbolt 2 Raid the files are VERY smooth.


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Thomas Mathai
Re: Blackmagic RAW
on Sep 21, 2018 at 9:37:28 pm

It makes sense that Black Magic to create their own format if Cinema DNG has limitations.

Why would Arri want to use BRaw when they've had lots of success with ArriRaw , ProRes and their own color science. They've been doing this long before Black Magic got into the game.

All the other major camera makers have their own RAW formats and color science. I only see some DIY project using it because it's open source

ProRes RAW could be preferable because Apple isn't competing as a camera maker.


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Michael Hancock
Re: Blackmagic RAW
on Sep 21, 2018 at 10:10:24 pm

[Thomas Mathai] "ProRes RAW could be preferable because Apple isn't competing as a camera maker."

But Apple is competing in the NLE market, so will we eventually be able to decode ProResRAW in anything other than FCPX?

I don't think you'll see wide adoption of ProResRAW If you can't import and edit with it in Avid, Premiere, or Resolve. And the same is true of Blackmagic Raw. But I think Blackmagic will get it supported by at least Premiere and Avid relatively quickly, and it's already in Resolve (naturally).

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


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Shane Ross
Re: Blackmagic RAW
on Sep 21, 2018 at 10:22:45 pm

[Michael Hancock] "And the same is true of Blackmagic Raw. But I think Blackmagic will get it supported by at least Premiere and Avid relatively quickly, and it's already in Resolve (naturally)."

I agree. BMD already makes the Avid hardware, so it stands to reason that they'll have support for BRAW in Avid...and certainly Adobe. And unless PRORES RAW sees support in Adobe or Avid...I cannot see high end camera makers implimenting it. If they can't get it to the client to edit, why use it?

Of course, camera makers ALWAYS make new formats that no NLE supports for a month or two...which is patently silly. But yeah, since Apple isn't a camera maker, they need to convince the camera makers to adopt that format. And to limit that to FCP-X...if they did that? You won't see many camera makers adopting it. 2.5 Million users or not. IMHO. How many of that 2.5M is high end enough to use that format?

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Oliver Peters
Re: Blackmagic RAW
on Sep 22, 2018 at 12:41:23 am

Well, at this point, we know very little, really. It's early. I doubt that either codec will get wide acceptance until more camera manufacturers are on board. Most DPs have no big interest in using external recorders, so not having in-camera support is a deal-breaker. While BMD is offering its RAW in-camera, they are going to have to attract other camera manufacturers. That's going to be tough, because they are a direct competitor.

IIRC, Grant has mentioned making BMD RAW an open codec available to all. That isn't the case with ProRes RAW. But, assuming that at least decoding opens to more than just FCPX, then other NLE makers will add support. However, RAW complicates matters. With ProRes, companies like Avid or BMD have no direct control over the codec. It's essentially a closed, "black box" from the standard of third parties. That's fine for playback and record, but I would imagine you need more direct hooks into the codec when it's RAW. Of course, maybe each will offer a RAW module, like RED does.

I can say that, for the moment, BMD RAW inside of Resolve is better and more functional than ProRes RAW is inside of FCPX. But, for most DP/editor/colorist purposes, neither codec offers all that much more than what we already have available to use with log profiles. So wide adoption is certainly no given.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Michael Gissing
Re: Blackmagic RAW
on Sep 22, 2018 at 4:57:01 am

[Oliver Peters]"But, for most DP/editor/colorist purposes, neither codec offers all that much more than what we already have available to use with log profiles. So wide adoption is certainly no given."

The ability to change color temp and ISO plus 12 bit is a big improvement over 10 bit log in a .mov or mxf wrapper. The fact that it is also compressed makes it a smaller file size than either ProRes rec 709 codecs and ProRes RAW without penalty. As soon as my camera gets the update, I expect to switch to BRAW and not use ProRes again for 4k shooting both to save storage space and to get the full dynamics of the sensor.

I was at a presentation of the new Arri Alexa LF a few days ago and the topic of BRAW was raised, especially as the presentation included the experience of two local ACS members who had shot a promo with the camera. Uncompressed RAW with a 4.4k sensor resulted in massive data and they were forced to switch to ProRes. The Arri rep pointed out that Arri don't have a compressed RAW, partly because they expect RED to take action on their patent for compressed RAW, something that BM have either negotiated or choose to ignore. Either way, if Arri choose to they could provide compressed RAW either by coming to an agreement or just using BRAW. I think we are about to see that compressed RAW will be demanded as it has grade and space advantages as well as not being a bloody quicktime codec belonging to a competing software company.


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greg janza
Re: Blackmagic RAW
on Sep 22, 2018 at 3:30:41 pm

[Michael Gissing] "Cross platform and open codecs are essential."

Despite all of the nonsense marketing from Apple, this is the real future of our industry. Adobe and Blackmagic are well aware of this and therefore they're positioning themselves for the future.

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Tangier Clarke
Re: Blackmagic RAW
on Sep 22, 2018 at 10:48:03 pm

This is a very meaningful and insightful discussion and it brings me to one very uncomfortable thought: I lament the notion of having to work in a track-based system, non-magnetic timeline system. Granted I realize that AVID, Resolve, PPro are simply tools, but the notion of how theses RAW formats are/could be tethered to NLEs and cameras heightens my awareness of just how much I enjoy using FCP X. Resolve would be my second choice and it is insanely feature-rich and an app that I jump to for specific features. However from a stability, performance, and workflow standpoint FCP X just stays out of my way and let's me work (mostly). I am sure I would adjust as needed should any of these RAW formats really affect the NLE usage landscape, but boy it makes FCP X feel more like an island...one that I want to stay on, but at some point may not make logistic sense to.


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Tony West
Re: Blackmagic RAW
on Sep 23, 2018 at 10:37:39 am

[Tangier Clarke] " these RAW formats really affect the NLE usage landscape, but boy it makes FCP X feel more like an island...one that I want to stay on, but at some point may not make logistic sense to."

I don't really see you being left on an island Tangier. While BMRAW looks impressive, I don't really see many people shooting with their cameras these days.

I like RAW, but care more about other options a camera has to offer. I will take the variable ND on the SONY and the ergonomics of their cameras over a BM camera. No slam on BM cameras, I shoot with them also, but I almost never see anybody else using them in the field.

The fs7 hasn't left much room for the ursa to operate these days.

Just what I see out there these days.


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Ricardo Marty
Re: Blackmagic RAW
on Sep 24, 2018 at 1:47:41 pm

This could be a game changer for bm cameras and if fcpx wont adopt the braw im sure that most bm camera users will defect and if video recorders adopt braw then more people will will jump nle's that wont take the codec.

Ricardo Marty


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Michael Gissing
Re: Blackmagic RAW
on Sep 25, 2018 at 11:59:02 am

[Tony West]"The fs7 hasn't left much room for the ursa to operate these days. Just what I see out there these days."

All depends on the market place. I recently needed to organise a multi camera shoot on a concert pereformance. I was easily able to get 4 Ursa Mini 4.6k cameras and two REDS. No able to find Sony FS5 or 7 in such quantity in my state. I also potentially had two Alexas. That's the camera share percentages in my small city.


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Eric Santiago
Re: Blackmagic RAW
on Sep 25, 2018 at 1:20:39 pm

[Michael Gissing] "All depends on the market place. "

So true. All depends on where you are.
Midwest Canada here and you can't find a single BMD and I know some that own/rent.
But its mostly Sony, Arri and Reds here with a slew of tiny terrors (A7s, GH4s, DSLRs, etc...)


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Oliver Peters
Re: Blackmagic RAW
on Sep 25, 2018 at 7:13:49 pm

On somewhat of a side note, is ProRes 4444 XQ encoding limited to Alexa cameras and Apple software products? It doesn't come up as an option with Adobe, although Premiere, et al can read the codec.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Shawn Miller
Re: Blackmagic RAW
on Sep 25, 2018 at 7:41:20 pm

[Oliver Peters] "On somewhat of a side note, is ProRes 4444 XQ encoding limited to Alexa cameras and Apple software products? It doesn't come up as an option with Adobe, although Premiere, et al can read the codec."

Blackmagic's Ursa Mini cameras can record ProRes 4444 XQ. I generally use it for hand off to people who can't use compressed cinema DNG. Fusion (on Windows) can also write out ProRes, but I haven't checked to see if that includes 4444 XQ.

Shawn



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