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Art doesn't pay

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Oliver Peters
Art doesn't pay
on Aug 7, 2018 at 2:57:07 pm

Nice video piece by Mark Toia.






This is a new Frame.io Master series. Toia has been active on the RED forums for several years. And relevant to here - he uses FCPX ☺

- Oliver

Oliver Peters | oliverpeters.com

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Bob Zelin
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 7, 2018 at 8:03:34 pm

Oh My God - I love this video. (Isn't this OT, and not relating to FCP X the debate).
I had a teacher at Polytechnic Institute of NY, who told me (as I was failing out in my class) - "Mr. Zelin, maybe you are not cut out to be an engineer". That was 1976.
And from the immortal words of Woody Allen from the movie Annie Hall -
"Those who can't do, teach. And those who can't teach, teach gym"

Thanks for posting.

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Bill Davis
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 8, 2018 at 3:06:25 am
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Aug 8, 2018 at 3:09:19 am

[Bob Zelin] ""Those who can't do, teach. And those who can't teach, teach gym""

Hey Bob. I know it's a "movie joke" but the fact that you interjected this thought here, makes you an idiot. Seriously.

Here's why.

My wife is a former instructional specialist for a large school district.
She now has a side hustle teaching english to kids in China via telepresence.
She gets up at 3:30am 4 days a week due to the time difference.
She does this, because she LOVES being a teacher. And missed it terribly since society doesn't value this skillset like it once did.

And with crap posts like this - you're perpetuating that "joke."

This morning, she was live on-line again, administering a final "level test" to a sweet little girl in Shanghai.
After the girl passed her tests (as hoped), she and my wife got to spend a pre-arranged half hour having an impromptu tea party and reading a new Diary of a Wimpy Kid English book out loud to each other to celebrate said sweet little girl's success.

Education - one on one - across the PLANET connected by two things. Lindas hard won, high level teachers skills as a former large school district instructional specialist - which is the background lubricant which makes her EFFECTIVE with initially shy, unsure students like this sweet little girl.
And global technology that was almost exclusively invented by people who generally had to be EDUCATED in order to attain the skills to invent it.

So I'm looking at that quote you so blithely posted above - and, (let me make this clear, again) sending you an electronic loud and distinctly articulated FU.

In my world, those who can actually teach well ... are the front line between civilization and anarchy.

The "exceptions" like Jobs and Gates in this, are NOT the rule. The RULE is the rule.

And quality education making a positive difference in anyone's life is the single most dependable rule of them all.

Period.

Oh, and teaching "GYM" today, is something neither you, nor I, nor most reading this thread would be allowed to do — not without a boatload of training in exercise physiology. Because like everything else — times have changed.

Being an ex- jock is no longer the key skill to getting a position teaching in a school athletic department today. Oddly, it takes EDUCATION now.

Go figure.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Scott Witthaus
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 8, 2018 at 11:49:30 am

Easy there Bill. I teach as well and take no offense. I do like the line from that movie. It is funny, however, when I started teaching in addition to my editorial work, so many colleagues came up and said “oh man, I would LOVE to teach”.

Having been in the business (post) for over 30 years I like this line better: “It’s all art and commerce. Art goes on your demo reel and commerce pays the bills”.

Scott Witthaus
Visual Storyteller - FCPX, Premiere
https://vimeo.com/channels/1322525
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Oliver Peters
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 8, 2018 at 12:10:54 pm

I think the important takeaway is that the statement in the showreel is somewhat serious, somewhat tongue-in-cheek. This is one of the most artistic showreels out there and all from bill-paying work. So, in fact, art DOES pay, in some cases.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 8, 2018 at 3:59:39 pm

Interesting.

Bob’s swatted at me, by name, maybe half a dozen times here.

I do the same thing once - and it’s of concern?
Sorry, not interested in tilted playing fields.
If it’s kosher for him to call me out for a posted opinion - it’s should be the same in return.

He’s a big boy. He can certainly take the at least the same level of criticism he’s been willing to dish out. That’s how this forum has always operated.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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greg janza
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 8, 2018 at 7:34:36 pm

[Bill Davis] "Bob’s swatted at me, by name, maybe half a dozen times here.

I do the same thing once - and it’s of concern?"


In fairness to Bob, that Woody Allen joke is legendary and it's hilarious.

Bill, if you've been in the video business for 30 years you should have a skin as thick as an alligator by now.

Windows 10 Pro | i7-5820k CPU | 64 gigs RAM | NvidiaGeForceGTX970 | Blackmagic Decklink 4k Mini Monitor |
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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 8, 2018 at 9:30:06 pm

[greg janza] "In fairness to Bob, that Woody Allen joke is legendary and it's hilarious.
"


Also reused here in Richard Linklater movie School of Rock, a great film about "teaching".







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Bill Davis
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 8, 2018 at 11:52:53 pm

[greg janza] "Bill, if you've been in the video business for 30 years you should have a skin as thick as an alligator by now."

About many, many things absolutely.

About disrespect to educators after the way the US has generally turned public teachers into third class citizens over the past three decades , not so much.

It’s particularly acute right now, considering the level of respect the folks she now works with in Bejing exhibit, compared to every US school system she has brushed up against.

If you have decent public schools where you live, support them and the people who work in them. Because the way things appear to be going right now, public education in the US is being quietly and systematically gutted.

I fear we will rue the day we let this happen.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 8, 2018 at 4:46:09 pm

Mark Toia's teacher told him that art doesn't pay. "Forget about this art crap. Get a real job."

Mark Toia proved his teacher wrong.

I am glad that there are teachers out there working towards excellence, but this is not that story.

This is a great piece. I am excited about this series.


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Shane Ross
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 8, 2018 at 5:38:59 pm

I read something on a friend's Facebook feed once that said "You don't think art is essential? You don't want to fund the arts in public schools? You think an art degree is useless? OK... for one week don't watch TV, listen to music, look at any advertising, use any interesting looking furniture...use only white plates, clear glasses. Wear only plain t-shirts and skirts or pants....don't read any books, magazines...don't listen to podcasts, audiobooks. Imagine all products in stores labeled with plain white labels. ALL of that is art."

Writing
Drawing
Photography
Storytelling
Clothing design
Product design

It's everywhere...it's ALL art. Sure, a lot of it is commercial, but it's art. Many computer designs are art...the iMac for one.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Shane Ross
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 8, 2018 at 5:54:39 pm

OH...here...I found the actual post.



Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Shawn Miller
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 8, 2018 at 6:27:59 pm

I think people who say things like this (you should have gone into tech, or whatever) fail to realize that a large part of the technology landscape is driven by art and design. Design driven user experience and design thinking aren't seen as trends in technology, they're seen as vital tools that help drive innovation. In fact, I can't think of any large technology companies that haven't bought at least one design firm in the past five years. The most recent example that comes to mind is Accenture's acquisition of Mackevision.

https://venturebeat.com/2018/01/16/why-accenture-moved-into-3d-visualizatio...

Shawn



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Eric Santiago
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 8, 2018 at 7:49:29 pm

To add, IMHO culinary is an art and I would die if all I ate was rice and boiled corn :(


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Bob Zelin
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 8, 2018 at 9:14:59 pm

don't worry Bill - I'm not offended. We all post aggressively on these forums. People are to politically correct these days "oh, you insult me if you don't like Vegas or Hit Film" etc. - who cares - we are just talking.

I am not referring to your wife's hard work and teaching foreign students. I am referring to things like "film school"
based on my experience of seeing kids whose parents spend more than most of us own equipment - and then the kid comes out and knows nothing. Doesn't that make you angry ? In my engineering school (now called NYU Engineering) - I learned a bunch of theoretical math classes, and had some Fortran programming classes. All totally useless when I got into our industry in 1977, and all useless to this day. A complete waste of my parents money.

In a recent article on Eddie Hamilton (editor of Mission Impossible) -
https://nofilmschool.com/2015/07/interview-eddie-hamilton-editor-mission-im...
He discusses his background, and his "lack of education" in our industry, but just his hard work and perseverance,
From that article -


"I spent a couple of years in the wilderness, temping in banks and police stations, and then I thought, "I can’t do this, I have to try and get into the industry." So I handed in my notice and gave myself a month to get myself a job as a runner, around 1994/95. I managed to get a job in a very small post-production facility and spent every evening and every weekend learning how to use every piece of kit in the facility, including the very early Avid Media Composers. I did a lot of on-line editing, off-line editing, some sports television, and when I felt I had really got a grasp of Avid, I put my feelers out in the low budget film industry to see if anyone needed editors because I really wanted to work in film."

You work hard - you get what you want. You keep at it, and you learn everything (like like FCP X).
This may not apply to being an actor or a musician, but it seems like EVERYTHING else in life - you keep pushing, and you can become whatever you want to be. With that said - my wife knows an editor in LA, that got laid off. He decided he wanted to become an actor. Not a "movie star" but just be employed in acting. Within a year, he has minor parts on countless TV shows now (most non speaking parts, and extra work) - but he is supporting himself, and while it may not be glamorous, he's an actor.

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 8, 2018 at 10:59:22 pm

[Bob Zelin] "In a recent article on Eddie Hamilton (editor of Mission Impossible)"

Careful Bob. You're going to trigger this crowd when they see the complex Avid UI on his screens. ☺

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Scott Witthaus
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 9, 2018 at 1:32:03 am

[Oliver Peters] "You're going to trigger this crowd when they see the complex Avid UI on his screens"


Funny you mention that, in a thread where “design” was mentioned. I (now) see the design of Premiere (and Avid I guess) UI as lacking good design. Maybe in the past but not now (for me). I have a Premiere job tomorrow that I am really not looking forward to because how it is laid out and how you work in it. Same rate, so that does not enter into the equation. I see FCPX as a simple elegant design that makes my work more pleasurable without sacrificing capabilities (and adding some). I feel I do better work on X. I felt the same way with DS, which was still a track-based NLE. Somehow to me, it was just better and I enjoyed working on it much more than MC. Now, this is just me and only my opinion, but how a user or customer sees design can definitely affect their decisions. It “feels” better to them. And obviously there are other people who see the design of X as simplistic and “unprofessional” (there’s that word again). It’s no wonder Design Thinking is such a hot topic these days.

Have at it, folks! ;-)

Scott Witthaus
Visual Storyteller - FCPX, Premiere
https://vimeo.com/channels/1322525
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Oliver Peters
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 9, 2018 at 1:50:12 am

[Scott Witthaus] "I (now) see the design of Premiere (and Avid I guess) UI as lacking good design"

See, I would disagree. Premiere offers a very freeform, modular design. So good or bad layout is merely a matter of how you set it up for your own working style. FCPX UI is rather fixed in UI positioning and to my way of thinking, not the greatest layout from a standpoint of edit flow. But, of course, to each their own.

[Scott Witthaus] "Now, this is just me and only my opinion, but how a user or customer sees design can definitely affect their decisions. It “feels” better to them. "

I would agreed with that.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 9, 2018 at 12:15:33 am

[Bob Zelin] "I am referring to things like "film school"
based on my experience of seeing kids whose parents spend more than most of us "


Of course, how silly of me.

Think of how much better off the industry would have been if...

George Lucas,
Martin Scorsese,
Joss Whedon ,
Terrance Malick
David Lynch
Darren Aronofsky
Chen Kaige
Joel Cohn
Francis Ford Coppola
Tim Burton

...and legions more had just decided to save all the wasted film school money THEY invested and just “figured it all out” all on their own like the really smart folks.

Heck, the dumbest one was probably crazy Ron Howard. Surely he could have totally just ABSORBED his skills growing up on set. Surely going to (shudder) Film School was likely an utter waste of time for him.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 9, 2018 at 12:23:32 pm

[Bill Davis] "...and legions more had just decided to save all the wasted film school money THEY invested and just “figured it all out” all on their own like the really smart folks. "

I think you'd have to ask them what they got out of the experience beyond networking with others, which is something that can happen while apprenticing in the business just as well. For myself, I have no preference between film school applicants and others when it comes to hiring - I find no correlation between college major and ability, although I do prefer some college as background, but a philosophy major is just fine if it's the right person.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Oliver Peters
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 9, 2018 at 12:49:22 pm
Last Edited By Oliver Peters on Aug 9, 2018 at 12:50:00 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I think you'd have to ask them what they got out of the experience beyond networking with others, which is something that can happen while apprenticing in the business just as well."

One of the biggest values of places like USC Film School is the alumni network out in the field after college. that's true of many places - not just film/art schools.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Paul Neumann
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 9, 2018 at 2:20:58 pm

Just a few years ago American Express had a huge push to hire English Majors as well as other Liberal Arts applicants. They realized they had a company full of really bright business folks who didn't know how to talk to each other. There's a good blog from them about it out there if you can still find it. It was all about "soft" skills for them. Their people didn't have them. One of the big ones was empathy.

Then I saw this research about how people rated high in empathy were also those that read a lot of fiction. People that could insert themselves into a story. Well, if you draw that line up to fiction (of all kinds) being created by artists, it makes even more sense and it really does take all kinds to make a business work.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 9, 2018 at 3:07:57 pm

[Paul Neumann] "Just a few years ago American Express had a huge push to hire English Majors as well as other Liberal Arts applicants."

Historically English majors have done well in many fields. Not because of their specific knowledge. Rather, that an English Lit degree requires a ton of reading, research, and critical analysis to succeed and graduate in those programs. Probably far more than many other majors. Those skills and that discipline is what makes them attractive to employers.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 9, 2018 at 4:50:55 pm

[Paul Neumann] "Then I saw this research about how people rated high in empathy were also those that read a lot of fiction. People that could insert themselves into a story. "

To take this even further off topic:

There's a great book called "Sapiens" by Yuval Noah Harari that supposes fiction, or imagined realities/collective myths, is the very foundation of modern humans and therefore society. The ability to believe in something that is not biologically coded in to our nature (the notion of rights as humans, money, freedom, equality, gods and religions), allows us to organize and activate (as well as influence and exploit) across vast distances, and populations. It's a good read. There's a companion called Homo Deus that hypothesizes on future societies, and the merging of human and technology. I haven't read that one yet, but looking forward to it (kinda).


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Bill Davis
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 9, 2018 at 5:11:03 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "There's a great book called "Sapiens" by Yuval Noah Harari that supposes fiction, or imagined realities/collective myths, is the very foundation of modern humans and therefore society."

On my list as of now.

And the scary corollary now, is that if you can successfully manipulate people into accepting an fictional reality well enough - you can manipulate their behavior in reality, in return.

(shudder)

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Michael Gissing
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 10, 2018 at 4:43:30 am

[Bill Davis] "And the scary corollary now, is that if you can successfully manipulate people into accepting an fictional reality well enough - you can manipulate their behavior in reality, in return. (shudder)"

On the micro scale this describes how individuals can justify preferences for technology brands. The art of design and marketing is to present such fictional reality of what represents superiority. On the macro scale, this is the exact description of religion.

However the need to believe fictional reality is hard wired in us so no surprises that it is at the heart of so much of our belief systems. Which sadly means there is no such thing as actual reality. Someone will one day do a Phd on this forum to show how the concept of reality is a shifting phantom.


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Steve Connor
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 10, 2018 at 8:46:28 am

[Michael Gissing] "Someone will one day do a Phd on this forum to show how the concept of reality is a shifting phantom.
"


Reality is long gone I'm afraid.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 10, 2018 at 5:15:43 am

[Bill Davis] "And the scary corollary now, is that if you can successfully manipulate people into accepting an fictional reality well enough - you can manipulate their behavior in reality, in return. "

Isn't this what we do for a living? We create/edit stories together (ranging from very subjective to very objective)
in order to elicit a desired action by the audience (be happy, be said, pick Jif over Skippy, vote for this person, dare to overcome adversity, don't eat fast food, etc.,).


-Andrew


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 10, 2018 at 4:33:09 pm

[Bill Davis] "And the scary corollary now, is that if you can successfully manipulate people into accepting an fictional reality well enough - you can manipulate their behavior in reality, in return.
"


Harari proposes that most society is based on certain fictions or myths, or imagined realities. He talks, specifically, about sapiens and what differentiates us from other less civilized human siblings (and apes).

There is no genetic code for equality, or freedom, or money, or class/caste. These are not elements of our biology. When one is born into wealth, that status is not encoded in to the sapien DNA. The status of wealth in that newborn baby is an accepted fiction that is perpetuated by all other sapiens. Ants or bees, for example, have their roles biologically encoded. Drones are drones, workers are workers, queens are queens. There is no "law" in those societies where a workers gets a "fair shot" or opportunity at being queen. So, we as humans, create the fiction or intellectual myths, that everyone deserves a chance to be whoever they want. That is unique to sapiens. So on some level, we are all manipulated and manipulating. So while one's "reality" may be influenced by other myths, it doesn't mean that your reality is any different. It is still a myth that was created in order to organize and classify a group of sapiens. Yes, this can be used for nefarious purposes, but it is also used for good.

And to Andrew Kimery, the answer if Jif, obviously.


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Mark Smith
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 10, 2018 at 8:32:26 pm

Finally, another Yuval Harari fan emerges....


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Michael Gissing
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 11, 2018 at 1:21:27 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "There is no genetic code for equality, or freedom, or money, or class/caste. These are not elements of our biology."

Not really correct. We do have behavioral genetically inherited traits for reciprocity which is based on recognising others of our species as having a shared sense of equality. Reciprocity behaviour is at the heart of social primates. As we share an extremely high proportion of that same DNA with other notable social primates like Chimps & Bononbos, there is no doubt that the concept of equality is DNA inherited. So is a sense of hierarchy. This is the basis for class/caste and is actually in our DNA as it is in most sentient beings. And we instinctively recognise those who should be treated as strangers. All in our DNA. So on that list, I only see money as uniquely human and potentially not inheritable. The rest are by us and most primates and mammals in general.

I have "Sapiens" in my reading pile at the moment so my comments are purely based on those reported observations from his book. I'm hoping Harari's understanding of biology and inherited behavioral traits is not dragging in the old binary arguments of nature/ nurture. I totally agree about the view of intellectual myth but I see that as the way we create meaning out of some biological inherited instinctual behaviours.

I much prefer Johnathan Haidt's analogy of the rider and the elephant. The elephant represents our powerful largely subconscious expression of our instinctive (inherited) behaviours. The rider (our intelligent consciousness) is like a lawyer, imagining ways to explain those instinctive impulses. The rider gives the illusion of being rational and in control. The truth is the elephant is too powerful for the rider so the often irrational behaviours we display need the lawyer to come in after the fact and explain it all away.

How is any of this relevant to the forum? Well how often have we just had a rant, expressed an emotionally charged opinion as immutable truth and then had to send the lawyer to mop up and explain in rational terms our possibly unfounded 'truth'? Nice to know those angry sprays and desire to sheepishly fanboy a brand are in fact instinctual and at the same time irrational made rational by the rider. Enough navel gazing.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 11, 2018 at 3:11:01 am

[Michael Gissing] "I much prefer Johnathan Haidt's analogy of the rider and the elephant."

"The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion" is a fantastic book.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 11, 2018 at 1:01:15 pm

[Michael Gissing] "Not really correct. We do have behavioral genetically inherited traits for reciprocity which is based on recognising others of our species as having a shared sense of equality. Reciprocity behaviour is at the heart of social primates. "

This is survival. Yes, primates are social. This is to ensure survival of the group. The food is here, the water is here, there’s a threat coming from over there, one ape is bigger/stronger/younger and therefore takes charge in a pecking order or hierarchy. Survival is certainly encoded and theoretically, any ape (or male ape) can challenge any other male ape for control.

When you are born in to a lower caste, this has nothing to do with your biological ability to survive, level of intelligence, or potential. Caste is a belief system created by humans in order to control populations. You are born in to a caste system because society said you are, not because it is genetically encoded.

I don’t think Harari is discounting this as evolution, he is accounting for how society got to where it is, and that is the ability to create fiction, and is a big evolutionary separator from other primates and ancient/ancestral humans, and why Sapiens have thrived for now.


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Michael Gissing
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 12, 2018 at 11:34:22 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Survival is certainly encoded and theoretically, any ape (or male ape) can challenge any other male ape for control.

Humans often equate our behaviour with apes that we are not as closely related to. Bonobos are our closest DNA relatives and they do not live in an alpha male harem society at all. Their hierarchy is intensely social, matriarchal, poly sexual. The fact that we look for alpha male hierarchy in the mammal world is to justify our modern social construction so in that sense Harari is correct. We have invented social structures that have a basis in our DNA but have been mythologised and modified to justify.

I am merely pointing out that both the instincts that we warp and the brain that does it is a result of inherited DNA over which we overlay social mythos. As for human success, I am always quoting Stephen Jay Gould who, as a paleontologist, took the longer view of humans as a species when he declared that looking at millions of years of evolution, "Intelligence is always a backwater".


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Bill Davis
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 9, 2018 at 4:32:22 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I think you'd have to ask them what they got out of the experience beyond networking with others, which is something that can happen while apprenticing in the business just as well."

Oh, of course. And that whole "Opie" thing clearly wasn't enough for Mr. Howard. Plus I'm sure his "network" in Hollywood just needed a few more doors open before he could succeed...

OTOH, I suppose it's just barely possible that he felt that an organized curriculum put together by people who had actually studied how to efficiently sequence learning and had a pedagogy, developed over time, that had been tuned for effectiveness might be a smarter play.

Oh heck no. That's crazy talk. Learning is unlike ANYTHING else. Putting it in a structure totally KILLS it.

How silly of me to think otherwise.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 9, 2018 at 6:42:41 pm

[Bill Davis] "OTOH, I suppose it's just barely possible that he felt that an organized curriculum put together by people who had actually studied how to efficiently sequence learning and had a pedagogy, developed over time, that had been tuned for effectiveness might be a smarter play. Oh heck no. That's crazy talk. Learning is unlike ANYTHING else. Putting it in a structure totally KILLS it. "

I don't know what Ron Howard did or didn't get out of going to film school, you'd have to ask him.

I do know that at least some of the folks on your original list got absolutely nothing out of film school, because they never went to film school -- Terence Malick was a philosophy major at Harvard, Lynch was a painter at the Penn Academy of Fine Arts and Burton went to an art school where he studied animation.

Learning always has a structure, but it need not be organized by pedagogues. Sometimes a library card and an 8mm camera will do. It worked for Spielberg, it worked for every Director before 1970, and guess what - you don't necessarily paint better for going to art school, or play better for going to music school and you don't write better for having a degree in literature.

I believe in education, I believe in paying and treating our teachers better, but I'm one of those old guys that actually prefers someone with a well rounded liberal arts education as opposed to someone who sees college as trade school.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Oliver Peters
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 9, 2018 at 8:01:54 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I don't know what Ron Howard did or didn't get out of going to film school, you'd have to ask him."

From Wikipedia:

"Howard was tutored at Desilu Studios in his younger years, and graduated from John Burroughs High School. He later attended the University of Southern California's School of Cinematic Arts but did not graduate. Howard has said he knew from a young age he might want to go into directing thanks to his early experience as an actor."

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Bob Zelin
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 9, 2018 at 8:11:08 pm

from the same Wiekipedia article (and I saw a documentary on Ron Howard that said the same thing) -

Before leaving Happy Days in 1980, Howard made his directing debut with the 1977 low-budget comedy/action film Grand Theft Auto.[1] This came after cutting a deal with Roger Corman, wherein Corman let Howard direct a film in exchange for Howard starring in Eat My Dust!, with Christopher Norris

So, from what I recall, Ron Howard worked for free in order that he would be given the opportunity to direct a real movie. Once again - you bust your ass, you make sacrifices, and you get what you want. The ONLY thing that every one of you (that does hiring) cares about is WHAT IS YOUR EXPERIENCE - not "what is your GPA".

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Herb Sevush
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 9, 2018 at 9:07:22 pm

[Bob Zelin] "This came after cutting a deal with Roger Corman, wherein Corman let Howard direct a film in exchange for Howard starring in Eat My Dust!, with Christopher Norris"

Roger Corman was the greatest film school ever - probably half the people on Bill's list were happily exploited by him in their youth - along with the likes of Jonathan Demme, Joe Dante, John Sayles and John Cameron - but he didn't give out a degree - just knowledge and experience.

http://www.denofgeek.com/movies/23528/8-hollywood-directors-from-the-roger-...

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Warren Eig
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 11, 2018 at 5:50:11 pm

It was the greatest film school. After graduating college, Jo Dante told me to go there because he started there. I did and started as an apprentice editor syncing 35mm dailies on a sync block and then taking the 10,000 feet reel of film and the 10,000 feet reel of mag stock and putting it on a edge number machine. Those were the days.

But if you stuck it out you got to do and try things like shoot and direct second unit.

Warren Eig
O 310-470-0905


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Brett Sherman
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 11, 2018 at 1:03:23 pm

[Bob Zelin] "So, from what I recall, Ron Howard worked for free in order that he would be given the opportunity to direct a real movie. Once again - you bust your ass, you make sacrifices, and you get what you want."

While I definitely agree with the sentiment, I think this example perhaps highlights a different truth. That connections make all the difference in the world. Ron Howard did not work for free. He used his fame as an actor to leverage a directing gig in trade for his name as a star.

These barriers can be overcome with hard work. But to be clear for a nobody it's not going to be as easy as it was fro Ron Howard. This is not to take away anything from his abilities as a director. But I just don't think it was that hard for him to get a foothold in the industry.


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Bill Davis
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 10, 2018 at 9:10:52 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I do know that at least some of the folks on your original list got absolutely nothing out of film school, because they never went to film school -- Terence Malick was a philosophy major at Harvard, Lynch was a painter at the Penn Academy of Fine Arts and Burton went to an art school where he studied animation.
"


Then you should call the American Film Institute folks to quibble with them - because it's website lists them both as alumni. And it's listed first on the general list of best film schools in the US.

To quote:

1. American Film Institute

Among the most selective film schools in America, AFI's Center for Advanced Film and Television Studies in Los Angeles offers a two-year conservatory program where students specialize in fields including directing, producing and writing, often coming to the institute after working in the industry or having attended other schools. Its "fellows" are typically more mature (average age is 27) and benefit from speakers and teachers drawn from the highest levels of the industry, supported by the full weight of AFI itself. Comparing it to cross-town rivals UCLA and USC is a bit of apples-and-oranges, given its small size and emphasis on specialization, but AFI's glittering parade of alumni, from David Lynch to Darren Aronofsky, remains unrivaled when it comes to auteur filmmakers. Students are guaranteed the freedom to make a thesis film and are given access to SAG members for their casts and $13,500 in financing. If you know where you're going, AFI can get you there.

TUITION $38,416 for first year; $37,112 for second year (plus $8,033 for thesis)

DEGREES MFA, certificate of completion

NOTABLE ALUMNI Terrence Malick (The Tree of Life), David Lynch (Blue Velvet), Darren Aronofsky (Black Swan)

"I love AFI and would be nowhere without it." -- David Lynch

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 10, 2018 at 10:12:17 pm

[Bill Davis] "Then you should call the American Film Institute folks to quibble with them"

Bill, For someone who never went to film school (I presume) you are really doubling down on this ☺

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 10, 2018 at 10:54:31 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Bill, For someone who never went to film school (I presume) you are really doubling down on this ☺"

I'm not defending film school.

I'm defending the concept of formal education. Whether that happens in a "film school" or in a movie making collective, or in a class at your local library. I've learned that the more I interact with people who now MORE than I do - the smarter I become. And those are almost always the people who have STUDIED things more than I have.

Sure you can teach yourself. But it's usually harder and less efficient than letting communities of experts come together and AGREE on the most important concepts and the curriculum that has the best and most efficient chance of success.

A "school" is simply and precisely that. A construct where the people teaching have demonstrated that they don't just "think" they know more about topic under discussion than the rest of the class - but that theres been a systematic search to IDENTIFY those who not only know the subject, but have an ability to pass the knowledge along.

TIME is the enemy in most of these things. If you can learn to understand in 1 year in a "film school" what it might take you 4 years to learn in the field - then film school is worth it. Period.

Why? IMO, because this is NOT like the era when Speilberg and most of that group was coming up. When he was making his home made student films - he, and a couple of friends were the rare ducks with an interest in films at ALL in the mid 1960s. (I know that because my sister went to High School with him, and remembers how "odd" he and his friends were considered)

Fast forward to today, and you can't mutter "what do you mean by B-roll?" in any crowded elevator anywhere in the world without the likelyhood of getting a bunch of reasonable answers back. The entire LANDSCAPE of the filmmaking arts is UTTERLY different than it was 50 years ago.

So if back then, what you needed to catch someones attention might have been a couple of decent "resume" films on a festival circuit - that landscape is now more like competing with 50,000 Sundance submissions a year.

That's a FAR different game.

We all HOPE against hope that pure talent will continue to win out over anything else. But I'm worried. You watch those shows like "The Voice" and you start to notice that absolutely stunning singing isn't the massive separator we all probably believed it was before we saw those type shows. Now a positively angelic voice is BARELY a distinguishing element between the top 5 percent of competitors.

So too, (I worry) are technical film making chops whether they be cinematography, editing, sound, or whatever. Those are now the BASELINE skills. Some harder than others to master, but ALL stuff more able to RUIN your chances, rather than elements that will make you appear BETTER than your competition. Because legions have now had decades to practice this stuff. At home. In their spare time. For fun. And the level of expertise is stupidly high overall. (Watched the top public facing Vimeo stuff lately? Holy HECK a ton of people all around the world know how to make killer content now!)

So things are just "different" today.

Yes, the kids with bigger and better ideas - and some spark of magic will still make it without ANY formal training. But there will be fewer and fewer of them, as time goes on. Not because their ideas are less valuable, but because the competitive playing field is different now.

Malcolm Gladwells "Outliers" probably said it best noting that it's not enough to be GREAT at something. You need to be great at something when the world changes to wanting what you're great at.

Then the world moves on.

Formal Education may be just a "power booster" today - rather than a fundamental gatekeeper. But gamers all know that power boosters are sometimes critical to avoid DYING during play.

That's the world we live in today.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 10, 2018 at 11:34:36 pm

[Bill Davis] "Malcolm Gladwells "Outliers" probably said it best noting that it's not enough to be GREAT at something. You need to be great at something when the world changes to wanting what you're great at.
"


Funny that you should fall back on him as support for your argument. Considering that he popularized the concept that it takes 10,000 of DOING something before you get good at it.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Herb Sevush
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 11, 2018 at 11:54:20 am

[Bill Davis] "Then you should call the American Film Institute folks to quibble with them"

You are right and I am wrong. I was thinking undergrad, which is where most kids I run into are going to film school. As for AFI, that is one place where I would be unequivocal; if they're willing to take you, pack your bags and go, do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Oliver Peters
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 11, 2018 at 12:49:09 pm

[Herb Sevush] "As for AFI, that is one place where I would be unequivocal"

I think the differentiation in our industries has to be between schools that just teach and schools that teach by doing.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 11, 2018 at 1:30:16 pm

[Oliver Peters] "I think the differentiation in our industries has to be between schools that just teach and schools that teach by doing"

Uh, ALL schools teach video by doing now. All of them.

My son was the 5th grade weatherman in his grade schools morning newscast.

That was 10+ years ago and is more clear evidence for my contention that the landscape has changed.

Surely there’s not a program anywhere that doesn’t have their students making and submitting actual practical work as a core part of their curriculum.

Period.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 11, 2018 at 3:16:46 pm

[Bill Davis] "Uh, ALL schools teach video by doing now. All of them."

Actually, if we are talking about film majors in college, that's not true. Some teach writing and acting and conceptual things. Others have actual, real-world hardware and teach production and post as if they were out in the market. Some prepare you for 'above the line' roles and others focus on 'below the line'. I know this for a fact, as I have taught as a guest instructor at and consult with several of them.

One of these has a co-op technology program where a real producer can pitch his/her film to the program and have the students involved in the production. The crews are typically 1/3 professionals (who act as mentors and department heads and keys) and about 2/3 students. These films have gone on into mainstream distribution including theatrical, HBO, etc. That's a lot different than how most film schools operate.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 12, 2018 at 12:18:09 am

[Oliver Peters] "Actually, if we are talking about film majors in college, that's not true. "

The wires might be getting crossed about a difference between hands-on classroom instruction (which is what it sounds like Bill is talking about) vs pseudo-vocational situations (which is what it sounds like in your example). Certainly in the past there were schools that couldn't afford Avids or 35mm cameras or moviolas so the teaching was mainly theoretical with SVHS cameras and linear, deck-to-deck editing standing in for the 'real stuff'. In the past 15-20yrs the cost of gear has come down so much I think every program (especially at the college level) can be more hands-on in the way that Bill is describing.

When talking to students I always stress the importance of finding a post/production place locally and trying to work part time, intern, etc.,. so they can get a feel for how real world production work is done as it's going to be much different than what they experience in a classroom environment. Which I think is fine. IMO college should be primarily about exposure to new people/experiences/ideas, learning how to think critically, and acquiring job-agnostic skills that will serve you the rest of your life regardless of the job(s) you end up having.


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Bob Zelin
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 12, 2018 at 3:50:38 pm

OH - I just have to jump back into this conversation.

Your kid in in High School. He wants to be a film maker, or do something in this business (perhaps editor or graphics). Here are your instructions -
instead of spending $39,000 for that first year in school -
1) buy him or her a nice loaded iMac - you don't need to spend more than $3000 for it
2) have him or her take this course - https://www.xintwo.com/. The guy that teaches it, is an FCP X expert, and in his words -
"XinTwo is a special series of Final Cut Pro X learning modules offering the maximum learning experience in the least amount of time.
XinTwo is designed to help both beginners and experienced editors to gain a deeper understanding of Final Cut Pro X. We guarantee you’ll become more proficient with the app."

3) get them an Adobe subscription as well (even if you can't get the student rate, it's $49 a month)
4) get them a cheap car, so they can practice during the day, and go have some fun on weekends.
5) by the time they are 20, send them out for LA, and pay their rent for a year, so they can get an internship with their knowledge of FCP X and Adobe (and perhaps any other subject they are interested like Pro Tools, AVID, etc.).
and if they are interested in shooting - get them a Canon 5D or Red Raven - because $15,000 is cheaper than $39,000 for that first year of film school.

And GUESS WHAT - after the first year, they will not only know than 75% of the people they are working with (they DID take the XinTwo course) - they will JUMP ahead, and they will be an in demand person that (because they are only 21 or 22 years old now) - they will be willing to work for much cheaper than a 40 year old with 15 years experience and a new baby at home. And THEY WILL SUCCEED. I am a huge fan of direct learning courses like Bill (and others) offer. All substance, no "bull#$%^", at a fraction of the cost, in a fraction of the time.

Just my opinion. And I only said positive things about Bill Davis in this post - and it's all true.

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Tom Sefton
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 12, 2018 at 9:03:03 pm

Direct learning vs education courses for film making is a fascinating debate. I can’t help feeling that the chance of success for anyone is based on initiative, talent, resilience and a huge amount of good fortune.

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 13, 2018 at 5:33:07 am

[Tom Sefton] "Direct learning vs education courses for film making is a fascinating debate. I can’t help feeling that the chance of success for anyone is based on initiative, talent, resilience and a huge amount of good fortune."

At least for success in a large, saturated market like LA or NY I'd say resilience and good luck are the two most important factors. Now, taking initiative, having talent, being experienced, building a network, etc., can certainly increase your odds, but it's still a crap shoot. I've gotten jobs because I was the first one to pickup the phone and I've missed jobs because I wasn't the first on to pickup the phone.

I know a lot of very talented people (filmmakers, editors, musicians, etc.,) that have never made it big because the cookie never crumbled their way or they got burned out on the grind and went in a different direction. It certainly reminds me of the old bear in the woods joke; Alan and Stan are camping in the woods when a bear walks into their campsite.
Alan: *starts lacing up his shoes*
Stan: "What are you doing? You can't out run a bear!"
Alan: "I don't have to outrun the bear, I just have to out run you!"
Stan: "Good point." *goes all Tonya Harding on Alan's knee with a trekking pole and takes off running*


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Tom Sefton
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 13, 2018 at 11:34:33 am

There's a perfect anecdote to this inside Peter Biskind's fantastic book - "Down and Dirty Pictures", which looks at the history of Miramax and the independent film movement of the 80s to early 00s. Tarantino worked in a video rental store and loved it, but realised that he had to move on to follow his dream; running with the fast class and coming last was better than running in the slow class and feeling like you were winning.

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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Bill Davis
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 15, 2018 at 1:19:02 am

[Bob Zelin] "Just my opinion. And I only said positive things about Bill Davis in this post - and it's all true. "

Gosh thanks.

Sadly, there was a part of XinTwo I was very wrong about. I assumed focusing on being concise would be enough of a market dfferentiator - and failed to notice a larger tsunami headed my way ... the incredible rise of every human with a YouTube account deciding it would be cool to crank out their own software operation training modules.

A few hundred competitors working in the same space is fine. I just didn’t expect a few hundred thousand!

Need to learn something about X? While the first dozen YouTube videos on that precise topic might be dreck, probably one of the next dozen (or thousand) will be OK.

Anyone paying will find Ripple Training (Which I highly recommend) or Lynda.com (available for free at your local library.) perfectly fine for traditional learners.

I’m pursuing a new and different strategy more tuned to teaching a part of the gestalt of X that’s not typically addressed by any of these other courses.

It’s slow going, but wish me luck.

The market has spoken. Be Agile, or don’t play!

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 15, 2018 at 12:26:13 pm

[Bill Davis] "the incredible rise of every human with a YouTube account deciding it would be cool to crank out their own software operation training modules. "

Bill, I truly feel your pain. But, ironically, isn't that the exact empowerment that you've been a champion of?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 15, 2018 at 6:45:40 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Bill, I truly feel your pain. But, ironically, isn't that the exact empowerment that you've been a champion of?
"


Yes, and I still champion it.

The thing is, even if you see (and agree with) the changes coming, it's still up to each of us to learn how to get in front of the them and presumably capitalize on them, if we want to do more than watch them happen around us.

I saw the changes coming, but didn't see enough of the scope or particulars of them to properly anticipate the stunning speed of those market changes. That's just how it works. 😊

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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greg janza
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 15, 2018 at 6:52:38 pm

[Bill Davis] "Need to learn something about X? While the first dozen YouTube videos on that precise topic might be dreck, probably one of the next dozen (or thousand) will be OK."

This holds true for Premiere as well. I can't imagine needing to pay for online training on either NLE at this point.

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Andrew Kimery
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 15, 2018 at 7:10:58 pm

[greg janza] "This holds true for Premiere as well. I can't imagine needing to pay for online training on either NLE at this point."

I paid for Ripple's training on Resolve and FCP X when I first picked up those programs. I'm fine paying for a quality, cohesive, professionally made lesson plan that walks me through the entire program. I think it gives me more time on task that sifting though various YT videos (some good, some bad) trying to pick things up piecemeal. And when you are new to a program you don't know enough to know when someone's giving you bad advice.


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Bill Davis
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 15, 2018 at 10:29:04 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "I paid for Ripple's training on Resolve and FCP X when I first picked up those programs. I'm fine paying for a quality, cohesive, professionally made lesson plan that walks me through the entire program. "

The most fascinating part of this for me is how different people are regarding the type of learning modality that works best for them.

There was ONE standard process for a LONG time that defined education. Structured classroom instruction. Then non-linear everything started changing that. The web makes what I'll call "dipping for knowledge" much easier. But since it's not structured, its really easy for important concepts to be missed.

Then again, theres an argument that today's students, weaned on the internet and video games, think more "non-linearly" than past generations, perhaps. They're more adaptable. Also, possibly, way more impatient. They don't want to wait for the pace of the instructor to get to the next topic. If they feel they've mastered the specific topic being delivered, they're constantly ready to hit SKIP AHEAD to get to something more interesting. If they feel they've missed something, they'll simply SKIP BACK and REWATCH.

Into the morass of traditiional vIsual learners, auditory learners, experiential learners and the like, who knows what is developing in this modern stew. (Maybe "multi-sensory synthesis learners" from monitoring 5 simultaneous feeds with disperate content?)

It's crazy out there. And I doubt it will be getting any less so, anytime soon!

If you resonate well with the traditional "classroom instruction" style - be incredibly grateful! At least THAT has been studied for countless generations and there's a lot of data out there on how to do it well!

FWIW.

It's

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 16, 2018 at 12:44:49 am

[Bill Davis] "The web makes what I'll call "dipping for knowledge" much easier. But since it's not structured, its really easy for important concepts to be missed. "

Along these lines, I actually preferred the old 'book w/assets on CD' method as that allowed me to skim the material quickly and jump ahead if I felt like (probably the same reason I insist on having interview transcripts to work with when I'm editing).


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greg janza
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 16, 2018 at 9:13:58 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "(probably the same reason I insist on having interview transcripts to work with when I'm editing)."

I'm 100% with you. I've found out through these editor forums that some people don't use transcripts when editing interviews and that is surprising. Transcripts make the editorial process so much easier that if I'm not provided transcripts I'll just make them with the transcriptive plugin before I begin.

Windows 10 Pro | i7-5820k CPU | 64 gigs RAM | NvidiaGeForceGTX970 | Blackmagic Decklink 4k Mini Monitor |
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Bill Davis
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 16, 2018 at 9:39:45 pm

[greg janza] "I'm 100% with you. I've found out through these editor forums that some people don't use transcripts when editing interviews and that is surprising."

Why?

Some transcripts are useful - But I just as often fine them a significant waste of time.

How many times have you gone to find a clip that LOOKED ideal on a transcript, only to find that it's a total mess, as recorded. Weird pauses and intonations that even if you frankenbited, would STILL make for a choppy and ugly soundbite.

One POINT of X, is that using it's qualitative tags, you can rely on transcripts much less (by choice) and instead have a system to tag and save the ACTUAL best clips as you audition them. That way you KNOW the context and usefulness of those actualities in a fashion that reading them will never convey.

Basically, it's not enough to know the guy said "I love you" on camera — it might be more critical to know if when he said it, he sounded sincere, sarcastic, distracted, or infatuated.

And X's keyword tagging system lets you encode THAT in your prep - instead of just searching for a string of words.

We're all getting pretty universal transcripts soon enough if Google Speech to Text continues to develop.

I think it's time to look beyond the transcript. It's pretty limited, when you think about it.

My 2 cents, YMMV.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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greg janza
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 16, 2018 at 10:01:33 pm

[Bill Davis] "Why?"

Because transcripts save a TON of time in the edit. And when coupled with the plugin transcriptive which creates a transcript from a raw interview in about 5mins, the entire transcript text is matched to the interview/source timecode so you can search a word or phrase and that word or phrase is automatically now the source in point. Transcriptive continues where Avid script sync started.


[Bill Davis] "How many times have you gone to find a clip that LOOKED ideal on a transcript, only to find that it's a total mess, as recorded. Weird pauses and intonations that even if you frankenbited, would STILL make for a choppy and ugly soundbite."

All the time but I can just tab to every instance of a word in a timecode synced transcript and immediately find the good take.


[Bill Davis] "One POINT of X, is that using it's qualitative tags, you can rely on transcripts much less (by choice) and instead have a system to tag and save the ACTUAL best clips as you audition them. That way you KNOW the context and usefulness of those actualities in a fashion that reading them will never convey."

I have no need to tag if I can instantly search the entire transcript and with each search have an in-point set and edit it into my timeline.


[Bill Davis] "
I think it's time to look beyond the transcript. It's pretty limited, when you think about it."


If I was using a paper transcript that notion would be true but with today's technology transcripts are even more powerful than in the past and I'd argue that the plugin transcriptive is the single best time-saving add-on I've ever used.

Windows 10 Pro | i7-5820k CPU | 64 gigs RAM | NvidiaGeForceGTX970 | Blackmagic Decklink 4k Mini Monitor |
Adobe CC 2018 |Renders/cache: Samsung SSD 950 Pro x2 in Raid 0 | Media: Samsung SSD 960 PRO PCIe NVMe M.2 2280 | Media: OWC Thunderbay 4 x 2 Raid 0 mirrored with FreeFileSync


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Bill Davis
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 17, 2018 at 4:34:03 pm

[greg janza] "I have no need to tag if I can instantly search the entire transcript and with each search have an in-point set and edit it into my timeline.
"


There we differ.

Look, I totally understand the benefits of transcripts. And for many types of (especially long form work) yes, they're a HUGE boon. And I'm sure they'll continue to be used and continue to drive lots of efficiency into many workflows.

AND it's great that they are being automated and developing even more usefulness in the era of speech to text and more AI in our software.

But I just feel that text on a page, by itself, will always be a distance from the speech you're trying to locate.

In processing interviews, not having the ability to range reject OR select something that "reads well" but doesn't PLAY well - seems to me a step backwards from what I'm doing now. Scanning everything is NOT the process I want. I typically want to "reduce to the best" as my initial pass. THAT is what saves me the most time going forward.

Basically, for me, unless you're encoding that type of interpretative data, you're really just settling for a shotgun to shoot at a bulls eye.

But that's just me. Each editor has their own needs and style, as do each different project, often.

And so it goes.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 17, 2018 at 4:52:08 pm

[Bill Davis] "In processing interviews, not having the ability to range reject OR select something that "reads well" but doesn't PLAY well - seems to me a step backwards from what I'm doing now. Scanning everything is NOT the process I want. I typically want to "reduce to the best" as my initial pass. THAT is what saves me the most time going forward"

I tend to work in a reductive fashion, too. However, when a client says "but, didn't they say..." you have no answer without going back and reviewing the footage again. Maybe they never said that, or maybe you just rejected it and moved on and it's now out of mind. Having a transcript - even if you use it only after the fact - helps in those situations.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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greg janza
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 17, 2018 at 5:10:06 pm

[Bill Davis] "Basically, for me, unless you're encoding that type of interpretative data, you're really just settling for a shotgun to shoot at a bulls eye."

We'll agree to disagree.

I guess if you primarily do sizzle reel type pieces the need for transcripts would be far less but for any story driven piece with interviews, transcripts are the blueprint from which all content is analyzed and selected. Even the two minute corporate promos I work on are made much easier by using transcripts because there's a tendency these days to over interview folks and so often a corporate exec is allowed to pontificate for 30-45 mins in raw form by the producer. And if you have half a dozen interviews the time needed to look at those interviews in real time goes up exponentially.

It's also possible that fewer producers are providing transcripts to editors and so maybe some folks have gotten used to making selects from just watching the content but I'd argue that it's an inefficient use of edit time.

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Andrew Kimery
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 22, 2018 at 7:58:18 am

[Bill Davis] "In processing interviews, not having the ability to range reject OR select something that "reads well" but doesn't PLAY well - seems to me a step backwards from what I'm doing now. Scanning everything is NOT the process I want. I typically want to "reduce to the best" as my initial pass. THAT is what saves me the most time going forward. "

It's not an either/or scenario though. You can have transcripts in order to leverage what transcripts do best and you can have ranges, markers, keywords, etc., in order to leverage what ranges, markers, keywords, etc., do best.


[Bill Davis] "I think it's time to look beyond the transcript. It's pretty limited, when you think about it."

I don't think having a complete record of what people said contained in a small, extremely portable, shareable, keyword searchable, platform agnostic, universally understood, easily editable, printable format that allows any literate person to build edits, find pertinent information, give feedback, etc., from anywhere in the world can be described as "pretty limited".

IMO transcripts are a high water mark for how flexible, transferable and editable all metadata should be.


[Bill Davis] "We're all getting pretty universal transcripts soon enough if Google Speech to Text continues to develop. "

I think this gets more to the point of why some people don't see the value in transcriptions because it's an added layer of work and an added layer of cost. I imagine when we get the point of every NLE being able to generate accurate transcriptions upon media import and those transcriptions are automatically synced with the media (ala ScriptSync) that people will wonder how they ever got by with anything less.

Take it a step further and imagine connected apps/devices where someone could highlight sections of a transcript (or even do very blunt word processing) and those text selections would automatically show up as a stringout in the NLE. And you could even add keywords, markers, ranges, etc., to the transcript and those markups would automatically be added to the media in the NLE.

That would even further open up the editorial processes (though not necessarily editing itself) to non-editors and/or non-technical people. Or even make an editor's life more pleasant. Imagine sitting down with an iPad and a cup of coffee on the couch and as you leisurely highlight and tag your transcripts. When you are done you walk over to your NLE (or your editor walks over to their NLE) and, based on your transcripts, all the relevant clips are tagged, sorted, strungout, etc.,.

Sure it's not going to lead to a perfectly edited cuts but the goal isn't to get a perfectly edited cuts out of it.


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Bill Davis
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Sep 1, 2018 at 11:14:37 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Take it a step further and imagine connected apps/devices where someone could highlight sections of a transcript (or even do very blunt word processing) and those text selections would automatically show up as a stringout in the NLE. And you could even add keywords, markers, ranges, etc., to the transcript and those markups would automatically be added to the media in the NLE.
"


Uh, you're late to this idea.

Phil and Greg at Intelligent Assistance with —Builder — does pretty much EXACTLY this inside FCP X right now.

FWIW.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Sep 2, 2018 at 4:58:55 am

[Bill Davis] "Uh, you're late to this idea.

Phil and Greg at Intelligent Assistance with —Builder — does pretty much EXACTLY this inside FCP X right now. "


I've had the idea for years but I'm not a software developer so that and a couple of bucks will get me a cup of coffee...

Thank you though for beautifully illustrating my point about how powerful and useful transcripts can be.


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Bill Davis
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Sep 2, 2018 at 7:06:42 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Thank you though for beautifully illustrating my point about how powerful and useful transcripts can be."

In their niche, VERY powerful. However, their niche isn't particularly large, IMO.

It goes back to the same old argument. Is the larger "professional editing" landscape more like the one you are imagining or the one I have to work in daily.

My friend Braden Storrs (who helms one of the larger FB groups X oriented groups at around 30,000 members - is currently running a poll about the primary use for X among their members.

Right now, Corporate/Business is well in the lead. Commercials and Ads are next, falling off about 30%. Documentary and Non-Fiction is in 4th place, with about HALF the practitioners of Corporate.

You can interpret that in LOTS of ways, but for me, primarily, it says that most people use X for business videos simply because that's the client pool that invests the most broadly and consistently in acquiring content. It's where more money is spent in more places.

Are transcripts useful in some of those areas? Of course. But for every interview driven piece where transcripts can be key - there are lots of scripted and interview free content where transcripts are meaningless.

People are basically following the money.

And I do think the Machine Learning and Algorythmic stuff like that which Phil and Greg are working on, will eventually get rolled into all the NLEs. So transcriptions will become just another software provided expectation.

And so it goes. 😊

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Michael Gissing
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Sep 2, 2018 at 10:15:59 pm

Given the number of X seats in the world, even if all 30,000 of the Facebook group respond, it may say more about the demographics of that group than how X is really being used as it's a tiny percentage of the millions of X installs. As for how useful transcripts are that surely is in the realm of personal preference, program style and the way you might have been trained or self trained.


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Bill Davis
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Sep 3, 2018 at 2:05:10 am

[Michael Gissing] "Given the number of X seats in the world, even if all 30,000 of the Facebook group respond, it may say more about the demographics of that group than how X is really being used as it's a tiny percentage of the millions of X installs"

Yeah, it might be a big enough sample if some real data scientists were digging in and both designing the poll and running the numbers, but it's just an opt-in quick poll of those motivated to respond, and as such, definitely questionable for more than just idle conversation.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Sep 5, 2018 at 1:01:52 am

[Bill Davis] "In their niche, VERY powerful. However, their niche isn't particularly large, IMO."

I guess I just don't see it as being a niche-type solution. I've done everything from scripted to reality TV to weddings to corporate to documentaries to live event coverage and I can see transcript-linked-video being potentially useful in just about any scenario that involves someone speaking on camera.


[Bill Davis] "So transcriptions will become just another software provided expectation. "

I think this is more the crux of the issue. Today there are technological and monetary hurdles that make transcripts (especially at the level of functionality Builder offers) an additional cost so each person in each scenario has to decide if that additional cost is worth it to them. Now imagine a day when those technological and monetary hurdles are removed from the equation and every NLE generates transcripts, links them to media, and allows for the kind of text-based editing and marking up that Builder provides as a matter of course. I think people will quickly latch onto it and come up with ways to utilize transcripts and text-based editing and markup that they never even thought was possible before.


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Tony West
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Sep 5, 2018 at 2:15:14 am

[Andrew Kimery] " Today there are technological and monetary hurdles that make transcripts (especially at the level of functionality Builder offers) an additional cost so each person in each scenario has to decide if that additional cost is worth it to them. "

It's also the time involved. You have to get that footage to the people who will transcribe it and that means transcode the footage and then upload time, and for a doc with hours and hours of footage you are waiting for a while. If you have the time to wait.........


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greg janza
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Sep 5, 2018 at 5:25:56 am

[Tony West] "It's also the time involved. You have to get that footage to the people who will transcribe it and that means transcode the footage and then upload time, and for a doc with hours and hours of footage you are waiting for a while. If you have the time to wait........."

That's how it used to be. With the incredible advances in speech recognition software, transcripts literally only take minutes to create and that's why they are even more powerful today.

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Tony West
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Sep 5, 2018 at 6:18:53 am
Last Edited By Tony West on Sep 5, 2018 at 1:10:12 pm

[greg janza] "That's how it used to be. With the incredible advances in speech recognition software, transcripts literally only take minutes to create and that's why they are even more powerful today."

Which software are you using Greg to do it? I have not had good experiences with speech software. Too many mistakes. I recently used Rev for German subtitles for my film because they use people to transcribe and so far I have been happy with the results, but they only accept certain formats to upload so unless your source material was shot on that, you would need to transcode first then upload. That's the time I was talking about.


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greg janza
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Sep 5, 2018 at 3:55:15 pm

Rev does a very good job with a relatively quick turnaround time but traditional transcription services just don't have much of a future.

Digital Anarchy makes a Premiere plugin called Transcriptive. The plugin works in partnership with the two major online speech recognition engines - Speechmatics and Watson.

The plugin bounces any interview to one of the two engines, the speech recognition engine does the heavy lifting of analyzing the audio and creating the transcription and then that file gets bounced back into the plugin interface in Premiere and gets married to the media file.

There are caveats. It costs money to use the speech engine services and the speech analysis makes mistakes. But here's why it's the future of transcription, the mistakes are minimal. I'd guess that it's accuracy rate is about 95%. The cost of using the speech recognition services is a small fraction of the cost of any traditional service and most importantly the turnaround time for this is a few minutes. For my most recent project I had several 30min interviews and I was able to get transcripts created in less than five minutes.

The only limiting factor at the moment is that it's a Premiere plugin only but I'm sure that will change.

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Bill Davis
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Sep 5, 2018 at 2:21:00 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "I've done everything from scripted to reality TV to weddings to corporate to documentaries to live event coverage and I can see transcript-linked-video being potentially useful in just about any scenario that involves someone speaking on camera."

Wow, that's truly interesting.

If you don't mind me asking, what type of transcripts have you pulled from a wedding? Would it be for a best man speech type thing? Or perhaps something like a reception camera set up to do automated talking head best wishes? I'm having a bit of difficulty understanding how a transcript would help in an event type of situation.

I know modern weddings can be very big shoots at the high end, but I know little about them.

So has transcription use in modern event work become a normal thing?

Just curious.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Sep 5, 2018 at 10:07:16 pm

[Bill Davis] "If you don't mind me asking, what type of transcripts have you pulled from a wedding? Would it be for a best man speech type thing? Or perhaps something like a reception camera set up to do automated talking head best wishes? I'm having a bit of difficulty understanding how a transcript would help in an event type of situation. "

I haven't done transcripts for a wedding before, but your example is the sort of thing that I would use them for. In the wedding videos that I did in the past I'd cut a 10min or so highlight reel and then do very loose editing on the rest of the event to get it down to around 90 minutes. If the client wanted a different sound bite from the Best Man (the joke about the horses in the middle of his speech, not the joke about the cars towards the end of his speech) or the inclusion of dad mentioning Aunt Jayne (which didn't stand out to me as significant, but apparently the bride is super close to Aunt Jayne) then having an transcription would allow me to easily search for those specific moments and jump right to them.

Other events can be the same way. For example, I've cut hype/sizzle reels for press conferences before and I always have to watch the whole thing (typically 60-90min) in order to find a handful of juicy soundbites. If I had a transcript of the speaker(s) at the event I could skim that much faster than I could go though the footage (even at 1.5x or 2x playback). Recently at work we were tasked with pulling some sound bites of an on-air talent to be used during an awards ceremony. Faced with the daunting task of going through hours of footage looking for great one-liners from said talent, someone had the idea of searching YouTube (this particular talent has a big YouTube following). We found fan-made vids highlighting our talent so we just had to look for air-date clues so we could find the original footage on our server. It was a creative time saver, but certainly not a very widely application solution.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 16, 2018 at 10:10:17 pm

Transcripts depends on the project.

I am working on a massive doc, with 30 hours of interviews from 15 people, and counting. Transcripts allows me to review the content much more quickly. It also allows a search of words and phrases. Unfortunately FCPX is bad at getting to a specific word from a transcript. Yes, sometimes there are instances where a phrase on paper isn’t like as good in video, but with transcripts I can easily scan or search to see if the subject comes up again.

Also, since this doc is already a year in the making, transcript allow a quick refresh of the material, especially when it’s not the only project I’m working on. It also helps in keywording in FCPX much more quickly. SpeedScriber allows adding favorites so even as it’s being transcribed, I can start the organization prep. I can easily get from favorites to keywords in FCPX.

I don’t get transcripts on every job, but I appreciate it when I do get them.

And now that FCPX has a caption option, my guess is that we will get very quick transcript to caption handling (or text box) in the future, which will be very helpful and useful.


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Neil Goodman
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 17, 2018 at 1:20:57 am

Ive worked on a few content style trailers with talking heads giving quips about the movie/show.

Transcripts became invaluable through the revision process. Clients will ask for stuff that doesn't exist all the time and the transcripts allow you to at a glance see whats possible way faster than I could ever skim through the footage or review my "tags". I need an "s" sound to turn something plural that was once singular I can quickly see all the words that may work.

In my normal day to day of spots and trailers, transcripts are null and void but we use dialogue breakdowns (every sentence of the movie/show subclipped and labeled with exactly what it says and by who) to sort of achieve a similiar approach to finding stuff and forming cheats,


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Michael Gissing
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 16, 2018 at 1:01:55 am

I'm about to do two annual teaching events. A location & post masterclass for emerging film makers and a half day with media students at a local high school on Resolve. What I find is certainly the impatience and some pre knowledge of how software works. But what is lacking is the 'why' aspect. Explaining the creative motivation for on set and post decisions is something that they don't seem to get from YouTube videos. Also entertaining anecdotes of real life experience both on location and in the studio to explain how problems were avoided or solved and the interplay between different creative departments. The social politic of film making.

I'm also giving them an idea of what it on set etiquette is like, how things were done in the olden days so they appreciate the power of the hardware and software at their fingertips. I see no point in just telling them what the different bits of software and hardware do.

I always get good feedback because I plug gaps in their knowledge that YouTube doesn't supply. There's nothing like face to face and I absolutely applaud those that do it every day in the classroom because it's hard work.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 9, 2018 at 10:12:35 pm

[Bill Davis] "Think of how much better off the industry would have been if...

George Lucas,
Martin Scorsese,
Joss Whedon ,
Terrance Malick
David Lynch
Darren Aronofsky
Chen Kaige
Joel Cohn
Francis Ford Coppola
Tim Burton "


Somewhat successful people that didn't go to film school. 😉

Steven Soderbergh
Christopher Nolan
James Cameron
Quentin Tarantino
David Fincher
Wes Craven
Kevin Smith
Luc Bessen
Harold Ramis
John Hughes

First off, I don't think there is an inherently right or wrong answer with film school. Personally I don't think it's worth the huge price most of them charge. A big selling point of film schools used to be access to filmmaking equipment but that's pretty much a null and void advantage at this point. I think you can get 80% of the same experience at a fraction of the cost by going elsewhere, but to each their own. And I'm sure my friends/acquaintances that teach at film schools would disagree with my opinion. 😉 There is certainly something to be said about a structured environment that forces you into learning situations that you wouldn't otherwise experience if left up to your own devices.

Secondly, looking only at successful people (or in this case super successful people) and then tracking backwards from there to see what 'made' them successful is inherently flawed because we are cherry picking the results we want to see. What percentage of child actors are as successful as Ron Howard? What percentage of USC grads are multimillionaire titans of the film industry?

It's a logical fallacy called Survival Bias.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias


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Oliver Peters
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 9, 2018 at 11:49:07 pm
Last Edited By Oliver Peters on Aug 9, 2018 at 11:54:23 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "First off, I don't think there is an inherently right or wrong answer with film school. "

I think we've gotten a bit off into the weeds with this film school discussion. To me, the inherent point in the video is that art+commerce=success. If you look at most successful directors, they had plenty of early, unsuccessful crap that they made for the love of the art. Then they started to learn that it's "show BUSINESS". It takes people willing to pay for your services that allows you to create artistic results.

And pertaining to Ron Howard, there's a really good interview with him done years ago on the Howard Stern radio show (before Sirius). He talks about trying to raise money for the first film. He considered running his own informercial in "Happy Days" asking people to send him money. Until he found out that was illegal. He jokingly said he even considered acting in a one-off "adult" film. Paraphrasing, "Who wouldn't pay to see Opie do that??!"

Howard and Glazer were arranging a bunch of studio meetings and Disney was the last one, as everyone else had turned them down. He said that he almost didn't go, because he was afraid that anything he'd do would be "Disney-fied". But of course, the meeting happened, which started him on a roll as a director.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 10, 2018 at 1:25:07 am

[Oliver Peters] "I think we've gotten a bit off into the weeds with this film school discussion."

Us? Weeds? Never! ;)


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Brett Sherman
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 11, 2018 at 1:08:46 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "First off, I don't think there is an inherently right or wrong answer with film school. Personally I don't think it's worth the huge price most of them charge. A big selling point of film schools used to be access to filmmaking equipment but that's pretty much a null and void advantage at this point. "

I agree with this. I also think what Bob was talking about was not necessarily the flagship film schools like USC and NYU which do have value for some. Rather the Full Sail and many like schools that have questionable expertise in their instructors and little help for securing a job after graduation.


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Claude Lyneis
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 13, 2018 at 4:03:41 am

The Art Doesn't Pay is an incredible reel. I have read all the arguments in this thread about film school, formal training, learning on the set. I went the formal route, through grad school in Physics at Stanford and then a career in Accelerator Physics. That is essential in a field like physics. Late in life I became interested in film and video. Just Youtube Channel stuff, but as I phased out of physics, I looked for a way to improve my production values. I took a number of courses in video, lighting, documentary at our local Community College, Berkeley City College. I was always the oldest in the class. The teachers work in the industry not necessarily feature films, but Reality TV, Documentary, Corporate, etc. The tuition for a course is not in the thousands, typically it is about $150, per course. The learning is hands on and can provide a solid background for someone with the artistic talent, drive and entreprenurial spirit to succeed. One thing the teachers there stress, is it is not about a degree in film making, it is who your work with, how hard and well you work and how challenging a profession it is.

So if my kid wanted to work in the industry, rather than spend $40 k on film school (exception for AFI), I would suggest the above approach and maybe buy him a fancy camera with the money saved. It is a risky business for sure.


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Tony West
Re: Art doesn't pay
on Aug 10, 2018 at 11:17:27 pm

Given his age, a teacher likely told him that "Art doesn't Pay" almost 30 years ago and well, back then more teachers likely felt that way than most do now.
So it's really a question from the past more than the present.

I went to college in the early 80's to study Television Production. I took an art class because I thought it would be fun (it was)

Something special happened to me in that art class that had an impact on me more than anything I can remember in my communication classes.

One day as we approached the Art building for class, we saw a brand new Porsche parked outside the building. Right up front so you couldn't miss it. We thought to ourselves, who in the heck is driving THAT car, and why is it at this building?

As we entered the classroom we could see that a stranger stood beside our instructor. We figured it must be his car, but who was he?

Well, turns out he was an artist. His artwork had been displayed in countless magazines and he told us about how people told him not to go into art because, you guessed it......he wouldn't make any money. He was there to get those negatives thoughts right out of our heads.

He listed off many famous artist that had been paid a pretty penny. Like a guy named Walt Disney.

That artist showed us that people don't always know what they are talking about when they try to give you advice.

Go for your dreams and don't let anybody tell you that you can't do it.

It was a brilliant move by our instructor to bring him in. He knew it would have an impact on us. 30 years later I still remember that day and tell that story, just in case some young artist had doubts.


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