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Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?

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ryan elder
Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
on May 4, 2019 at 7:18:33 pm

I was told by a couple of others in the audio business that instead of using one boom mic to record all of the dialogue that I should have multiple mics around the scene, to create a surround sound mix, live while shooting, cause it's better to spend the extra money on mics to do it while shooting then to create surround sound in post, which won't sound as natural.

They also say that if I want to record sound effects, such as a car driving by for example, that I should record it with multiple mics to get different parts of the car simultaneously, rather than trying to record all the parts separately, cause it won't match if I do that they said, cause the car will be driving by with different sounds, if I try to record all the different sounds, one at a time, on different takes.

But they also say I should record 4-6 tracks with all the mics placed in the room in a surround sound capturing fashion.

If an actor walks from left to write while talking to the other actors in a scene, than the mics should be placed left to right, so he can walk past each mic and it will give a left to right surround sound mix in production, so I don't have to do that in post for example.

They also said I should of course have a boom on the actor that is moving with the actor the whole time, as back up, but I should do the left to right mic placement.

Or if an actor is talking while sitting on the floor and then getting up, while talking, I shouldn't just boom along with the actor, I should have mics placed going from the floor, to the ceiling to capture the surround, as he goes from floor to ceiling, they said.

Things like that. What do you think, do you think it's worth it, to mic a whole scene for surround sound, during shooting, in order to save time doing it in post? And does doing it during shooting sound more natural, than trying synthesize reverb and sound direction in post, by comparison?


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Ty Ford
Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
on May 6, 2019 at 8:27:57 pm

Hello Ryan,

I don't know who you're talking to, but they are pulling your leg.

I was told by a couple of others in the audio business that instead of using one boom mic to record all of the dialogue that I should have multiple mics around the scene, to create a surround sound mix, live while shooting, cause it's better to spend the extra money on mics to do it while shooting then to create surround sound in post, which won't sound as natural.

-- For the most part surround is created in post.

They also say that if I want to record sound effects, such as a car driving by for example, that I should record it with multiple mics to get different parts of the car simultaneously, rather than trying to record all the parts separately, cause it won't match if I do that they said, cause the car will be driving by with different sounds, if I try to record all the different sounds, one at a time, on different takes.

-- Well that sounds like a lot of work and mics. Sound Design is the art/craft that combines different sounds to make a final effect.

But they also say I should record 4-6 tracks with all the mics placed in the room in a surround sound capturing fashion.

-- You've got a car crash in a room?

If an actor walks from left to write while talking to the other actors in a scene, than the mics should be placed left to right, so he can walk past each mic and it will give a left to right surround sound mix in production, so I don't have to do that in post for example.

-- Nope, you want to do it with a pan pot, not multiple mics.

They also said I should of course have a boom on the actor that is moving with the actor the whole time, as back up, but I should do the left to right mic placement.

-- No, that would be your primary mic. A wireless would be your backup.

Or if an actor is talking while sitting on the floor and then getting up, while talking, I shouldn't just boom along with the actor, I should have mics placed going from the floor, to the ceiling to capture the surround, as he goes from floor to ceiling, they said.

-- pulling your leg in an effort to explain "plant mics." Very funny.

Things like that. What do you think, do you think it's worth it, to mic a whole scene for surround sound, during shooting, in order to save time doing it in post? And does doing it during shooting sound more natural, than trying synthesize reverb and sound direction in post, by comparison?


When "natural" sucks, you don't want it. Get new friends.

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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ryan elder
Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
on May 7, 2019 at 12:11:32 am

Okay thanks. Well the way I've been doing it so far, is I've been booming the actors, and using lavs as back up, if I can get them for my shoots. But I follow the actors with the boom close by.

But they say that by doing that, with one close boom mic and lav, and no other mics placed anywhere in the room that I am missing out on room ambiance and creating surround sound, and just giving myself more work in post that will not sound as good cause it's synthesized, compared to getting it right during shooting (shrug).

The two guys who told me know more about recording than I do, but they've been recording music bands their whole lives, and are use to the band playing all simultaneously in different mics. So perhaps they feel that it's best to place mics all over cause they are use to doing it with bands?


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Ty Ford
Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
on May 7, 2019 at 1:23:06 am

The only reason to place mics all over is because you don't know where to place them specifically.

Music and dialog are very different.

With dialog, the challenge is usually to record as directly as possible.

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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ryan elder
Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
on May 7, 2019 at 5:19:02 am

Oh okay, they said I should place mics all over to create surround sound while shooting as an actor will walk into the direction of one track, and then walk into the direction of another, etc.

But I have no problem mixing in post, which they thought was just more post work and less natural, by the sounds of it.


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Richard Crowley
Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
on May 7, 2019 at 6:01:41 am

You can't properly mix everything together (dialog, narration, music, effects, Foley, etc. etc.) if each element comes with its own "ambiance". By the time you mix that all together you will have an unintelligible mishmash of sound.

The dialog needs to be CLEAN and as free of extraneous noise and ambient reflections, reverb, room tone, etc. as you can make it. AND you need a good 30 seconds of "room tone" for each setup. And your SFX, Foley, etc. need to be a clean and isolated as possible.

THEN when you have all the elements in the right places at the right levels, THEN you can apply whatever kind of effects you need to match the scene. Wind noise and distant surf, or traffic noises going by, or indistinct chatter and clanking glasses in a pub, or reverberation in a cave or whatever. But only AFTER you have all the clean elements mixed together. That way everything sounds "natural" like it all really happened there in the place the audience sees the scene.

NOBODY can predict exactly what the final mix will need while they are recording during production. That is why you need CLEAN, standalone, isolated elements to mix together in post production.

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Recording audio without metering and monitoring is exactly like framing and focusing without looking at the viewfinder.


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Bill Davis
Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
on May 10, 2019 at 3:13:38 pm

Sorry I missed this thread!

The overall issue is this.

If you want your portrait painted - hiring a house painter to do it is a really bad strategy.

So is asking a band recordist to tell you how to do a video shoot.

It's pretty much that simple.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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ryan elder
Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
on May 10, 2019 at 11:25:23 pm

Oh okay. I didn't actually ask them they just kind of asked me what I was doing and chimed in to correct me, once I told them I was not recording surround sound during production.


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Richard Crowley
Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
on May 7, 2019 at 2:35:15 am

Those two guys would appear to know nothing about recording production sound. It is completely different from recording music, either live performance, or studio recording. Stick with your experience and feel free to ask questions on these forums. You can consult those guys next time you want to record a rock concert, or next time you want to split the cost of a pizza. But for production audio recording advice, stay away from them.

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Recording audio without metering and monitoring is exactly like framing and focusing without looking at the viewfinder.


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ryan elder
Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
on May 7, 2019 at 4:44:29 am

Okay thanks. I actually have a question that came to mind. I am going to be doing a 5.1 surround sound mix for the first time, and I was wondering, when the composer does the music, does he give me a five track wave file, that I bring onto the time, or does he give me a bunch of mono files of different parts of music, and I am the one who mixes those mono files into the 5.1 master mix, myself?


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Richard Crowley
Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
on May 7, 2019 at 5:26:49 am

It depends on what you asked for (or contracted for, or paid for, etc.) I would expect that unless you specified something otherwise, you would probably get a 2.0 "stereo" mix-down of the music. Depending on how the music was created/recorded, you could get individual tracks of different instruments. But then you would have to mix down the music in addition to doing the dialog, music, effects, etc. mix for the video. And it sounds like that would be rather beyond your experience at this point, or perhaps cut into your timeline to finish the mix for the video?

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Recording audio without metering and monitoring is exactly like framing and focusing without looking at the viewfinder.


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ryan elder
Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
on May 7, 2019 at 5:35:21 am

Oh well I am just starting to search for a music performer/mixer now, so I haven't asked for anything yet. It's just my first time doing a surround sound mix, so not sure what to ask for, when mixing the music for that mix.


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Richard Crowley
Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
on May 7, 2019 at 5:49:26 am

Just starting out, I would ask for an ordinary stereo mix. You have more than enough on your plate without worrying about mixing down the music before you even get to mixing the main tracks in the production.

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Recording audio without metering and monitoring is exactly like framing and focusing without looking at the viewfinder.


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ryan elder
Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
on May 7, 2019 at 12:53:30 pm

Okay thanks, but for sending the film into theaters, I was told that for a DCP package that a theater either will take 5.1 surround, or mono, but not stereo, because stereo will cause issues on the 5.1 theater speaker systems that most festivals and theaters have.

Is that true? I read it here:

https://thedcpmaster.com/surround-sound-dcp/

So if it's true, that would that stereo wouldn't work in a DCP normally, and therefore I should avoid it then? I've used stereo on my projects over the years, but this is my first time going for a DCP, and wanted to do it right.


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Richard Crowley
Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
on May 7, 2019 at 5:37:29 pm
Last Edited By Richard Crowley on May 7, 2019 at 7:31:18 pm

Even if the final mix is 5.1 that does not preclude using 2.0 stereo music tracks. The stereo music would go to Front Left and Front Right, while dialog gets panned somewhere between Front Left and Front Right (depending on the scene, etc.) And you can filter any very low frequencies from the 2.0 music stem to send into the .1 Low Frequency Effects channel.

Then you can put ambient, SFX, whatever into the Rear Left and Rear Right channels. Without knowing the content of your production, it would be impossible to suggest exactly what would go into the surround channels. You might add some reverb from the 2.0 music channels into the rear surround, but it seems unlikely that you would need a full 5.1 music mix unless you were doing something rather unusual.

For that matter, you could just deliver a 5.1 mix with content in only Front Left and Front Right. An exhibitor that can't handle 2.0 seems pretty lame to me.

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Recording audio without metering and monitoring is exactly like framing and focusing without looking at the viewfinder.


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ryan elder
Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
on May 8, 2019 at 12:26:23 am

Oh okay, thanks, it's just what I read in those specifications on that page, so I was just going by that.

Do most movies with a 5.1 surround mix have stereo for the music then?


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Richard Crowley
Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
on May 8, 2019 at 4:43:47 am

[ryan elder] "Do most movies with a 5.1 surround mix have stereo for the music then?"
Do you mean Hollywood multi-million dollar blockbusters? Or do you mean "indie"? Or do you mean student projects?

I would imagine that most big-budget films mix the music into 5.1 (or 7.1 or whatever). But since we have not the slightest clue what your project is, you will have to ask yourself, does it make sense to mix the music into the surround channels? I mean "make sense" from the POV of the audience seeing it for the first time. Not from the POV of the producer/director/editor enamored with the tracks.

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Recording audio without metering and monitoring is exactly like framing and focusing without looking at the viewfinder.


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ryan elder
Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
on May 9, 2019 at 4:32:30 am

Well mine is an indie feature film I am preparing for, so I would like a 5.1 mix if that is what film festivals say they are requiring.

However, as for if it makes sense for the music to have a 5.1 mix, I guess that depends. I mean why does most music have a stereo mix for example? So you can hear more of the instruments? Since right and left direction is not really necessary for music, why not just have all music still be in mono? Or is there a reason for music to be right and left, but not front and rear, and center?


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Richard Crowley
Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
on May 9, 2019 at 9:05:43 am
Last Edited By Richard Crowley on May 9, 2019 at 9:19:04 am

The common standard for music has been stereo for at least 60 years. Monaural music will sound unnatural and "vintage" to most of the audience. At least those who have two working ears.

One of the reasons for having the Front Center channel is to separate the dialog from the rest of the sound. Unless you have special things happening which make stereo dialog more appropriate.

Music coming from the rear channels will be perfectly appropriate if you have a scene where the POV of the character is seated in the middle of an orchestra; Else it will proably make the viewer wonder why music is coming from behind them. But unless your production features a musician, you may have to justify why you mixed music coming from behind the viewer.

Your question is becoming philosophical, about style, motivation, etc. vs. a technical question. When you watch movies of the same (undisclosed) genre as yours, do you hear music coming from the surround channels? Is the music an underscore to the plot, or is it "diegetic" ( part of the scene like a busker on the sidewalk, a radio playing in the next room, etc.) If your professor asks why there is music coming from the back, do you have a logical explanation? I would expect underscore music to come from the screen (Front Left and Front Right). But I would expect diegetic music to come from wherever you would hear it in the scene. In my philosophy it is rather like the 180 degree rule for shot direction.

Diegetic music
180-degree rule

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Recording audio without metering and monitoring is exactly like framing and focusing without looking at the viewfinder.


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Ty Ford
Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
on May 9, 2019 at 12:01:00 pm

"Since right and left direction is not really necessary for music, why not just have all music still be in mono?"

Because you have two ears., stereo is necessary.

Because stereo allows a soundstage from left to right on which you can place a number of instruments so that they don't compete with each other.

How do you listen to music now?

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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ryan elder
Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
on May 9, 2019 at 12:49:09 pm

I listen to stereo now. I thought that with surround sound it was the same idea, but instead of having two channels to not allow instruments to compete with each other, you have six, which allows for even more. But am I wrong, and that six channels for instruments to not allow for competition, is not the same as two?


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Ty Ford
Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
on May 9, 2019 at 1:43:27 pm

Ryan, how old are you?

Did you miss the short existence of quadrophonic sound that peaked in the early 1970s?

Quadrophonic vinyl was produced. No one cold figure out how to standardize it. A different instrument on each channel? I had the idea of auto-panning instruments around in a circle like a carousel that would either move smoothly and continuously around your head, or that would move in tempo with the music.

In the end, most people settled for a stereo front and delayed stereo rear as you might hear in a live venue. Sometimes the rears would be reversed and out of phase with the front to achieve a groovy "surround effect."

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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Richard Crowley
Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
on May 9, 2019 at 7:32:42 pm

"Groovy"! 😎

Quadraphonic LP - the birth, short life, and death of quad vinyl







Bottom line: Stick with 2.0 stereo music mixed to Front-Left and Front-Right until you get more experience.

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Recording audio without metering and monitoring is exactly like framing and focusing without looking at the viewfinder.


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ryan elder
Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
on May 9, 2019 at 11:13:38 pm

Okay thanks. I am 34, and haven't heard of quadrophonic. So are you saying that for a typical surround sound mix, the music is in the two front center channels only pretty much?


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Ty Ford
Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
on May 9, 2019 at 11:45:35 pm

Ryan,

Exactly, unless it's part of the production sound, like a radio on in the next room or a marching band on a football field.

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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ryan elder
Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
on May 9, 2019 at 11:49:46 pm

Oh okay, if I want the music to be on the two center channels, should I ask for a stereo mix, or is this a no no, because then I won't be able to break each stereo channel apart to put one on one center channel, and one on other? Should I ask for both channel tracks separately therefore?


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Ty Ford
Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
on May 9, 2019 at 11:53:17 pm

Ryan,

Get your names right. There is only ONE center channel.

The other two in the front are Left and Right. A regular stereo mix will be fine.

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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ryan elder
Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
on May 10, 2019 at 12:28:20 am

Okay thanks, but when you import a stereo track into Premiere Pro, the track cannot be broken apart, so how do I get the right tracks on the right channels then, if a stereo mix track cannot be broken apart?


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Ty Ford
Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
on May 10, 2019 at 12:42:58 am

Ryan, the mix you'll get will be two channels, left and right.

You just need to import it. That's all.

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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ryan elder
Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
on May 10, 2019 at 1:48:33 am

Okay thanks, but how do you make sure that the stereo music mix will be on the right channels during exporting though? If I can't break it apart, then how do I control which channels it goes onto?


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Richard Crowley
Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
on May 10, 2019 at 2:09:22 am

That depends on:
1) How the music is delivered to you? (a) As a combined "stereo" track with embedded Left and Right, or (b) As two separate tracks, Music Left and Music Right.
2) What video editing software you are using. Different software works differently so since we don't know what you are using, we can't suggest how it might be done.

Perhaps you can send a stereo track directly to Front Left and Front Right? Dunno. Does your software allow that?
Or perhaps you will need to split a stereo track into independent Music Left and Music Right tracks?

And perhaps you might also need to convert the sample rate. As most pure music production is done at 44.1K samples/sec while video production is essentially standardized on 48K samples/sec. Sometimes the (unidentified) video editing software does this for you, and sometimes you have to do it for yourself. Too many variables to get very specific.

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Recording audio without metering and monitoring is exactly like framing and focusing without looking at the viewfinder.


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ryan elder
Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
on May 10, 2019 at 2:21:54 am

Sorry, I am using Premiere Pro. I will ask the music performer to give me 48 khz, but I don't think Premiere Pro, is ablet to put a stereo track into separate channels. If a track comes in at stereo, then it stays it's own separate channel, on it's own and cannot be put into two then.


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Richard Crowley
Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
on May 10, 2019 at 3:07:20 am

I used to use Premiere. I could take a stereo track and mute one side.
So you can take two copies of a stereo track, mute Right on the "Left" track,
and mute Left on the "Right" track. Than pan each to the appropriate channel.
I have also split stereo tracks into discrete Left and Right using other methods.
Do you have Adobe Audition? I believe that directly supports splitting Stereo into two mono tracks.

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Recording audio without metering and monitoring is exactly like framing and focusing without looking at the viewfinder.


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ryan elder
Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
on May 10, 2019 at 3:37:23 am

Oh yes, I have Audition as well. But I could just ask the music composer to just give me two separate tracks rather than a stereo track that is together, if that is better.


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Daniel Knutson
Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
on May 15, 2019 at 1:05:22 am

I almost hate to chime in because your getting pretty good advice overall, but I have to mention that mixing a movie in 5.1 is so much better in Audition or Pro Tools HD because you can pan any type of file (mono, stereo or surround) into any speaker in your 5.1 mix. I don't know if Premiere allows that easily or not. Which means a stereo music file can be panned into the rear and sub channels as well which you definitely want to do.

Also, whenever possible, capture a minute or more of the room tone in stereo where your scenes are being shot. That means you will record it when there is quiet - no acting or any other activity happening (like an empty room). Recording room ambience in stereo gives your mix depth and you should also pan the room tone into the center dialog channel to blend with the dialog. Then you fly in the room tone underneath dialog in post to smooth out the dialog edit. Don't add dialog to any other speaker except the center.

Here's a general rule of thumb channel routing for your elements:
1. Dialog Mono center only
2. Foley and Ambience (room tone) Stereo left and right and center at 50-75% of that
3. SFX Stereo left and right, also add to sub channel to taste (like, explosions need some sub but not every sfx does)
4. Music Stereo left and right and rear left and rear right at 25-50% of that, also add to sub channel to taste

Good luck!

I hear everything ;)


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ryan elder
Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
on May 15, 2019 at 4:22:29 am

Okay thank you very much! In Premiere, if you can pan to different speakers, but there are some work arounds you have to do if the tracks are mono and not already in 5.1, as it seems so far.

I could try using Audition instead, thanks! Also, I've been recording room tone for all my shoots so far, but I always record the room tone in mono. Is there a reason to record it in stereo? I don't really have a field recorder set up that allows for stereo, and it just records mono tracks. But is there a reason why stereo room tone, is better than mono room tone?


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Daniel Knutson
Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
on May 15, 2019 at 4:35:04 am

You can record room in mono and it will work just fine.
I use a little handheld Zoom H4n for recording room tone and foley sfx with it's built in stereo microphones. It sounds just a little more real, in my opinion.

I hear everything ;)


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Ty Ford
Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
on May 15, 2019 at 1:06:10 pm

Hello Daniel, et al,

Room tone is actually a minor misnomer. Room tone also includes the sound of the mic electronics.

Room tone often sounds different in different parts of a room. As such, if I need it, I record in every setup, either before we roll or after.

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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ryan elder
Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
on May 15, 2019 at 11:35:20 pm

Yeah this is what I have learned as well, to record room tone for every shot set up, if that's right.


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Ty Ford
Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?
on May 15, 2019 at 1:09:08 pm

Hello Ryan,

Because Room Tone is used to fill digital silences, it'd typical to record Room Tone with whatever mic you're using for dialog, if it's a dialog scene.

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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