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Should I sell my boom mics and by lavs instead?

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ryan elder
Should I sell my boom mics and by lavs instead?
on Nov 2, 2018 at 10:38:18 pm

Basically I have two boom mikes, the AT4053b, the Rode NTG-3, and a boompole.

However, I find that they are troublesome to use on a shoot, cause I cannot find anyone who is that good at booming. I usually have to be behind the camera so I thought maybe in order to operate with less crew, I should just sell the boom pole and two mics and use the money to buy at least four or more lavs instead. That would hopefully be enough for scenes with multiple actors.

However, are lavs good for recording foley and sound effects as well? If I sell the booms, I would them use the lavs for recording foley and sound effects, instead. Or should I be using different mics for recording foley and sound effects? But if I use the same mics, then I have a better chance of making the foley and sound effects, sound like it's in the same place as the dialogue, cause the mic is the same. Not that it's an exact match of course room, wise, but it does help.

But would recording foley and sound effects work with lavs though? What do you think?


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Ty Ford
Re: Should I sell my boom mics and by lavs instead?
on Nov 4, 2018 at 4:39:49 am

Hello Ryan and welcome to the Cow Audio Forum.

No. Don't do it. Figure out how to raise your game and find a good boomer.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/293491575232/

Where are you?

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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ryan elder
Re: Should I sell my boom mics and by lavs instead?
on Nov 4, 2018 at 9:17:37 am

Okay thanks, I am in Saskatchewan, Canada, where I shoot most of my short films.

Why not do it, are boom mics better quality than lavs?


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Ty Ford
Re: Should I sell my boom mics and by lavs instead?
on Nov 4, 2018 at 2:14:25 pm

Technically and practcally, very much so.

The diaphragm of a boom mic is about 1/2" (1.25cm). That's about 10 times bigger than a lav diaphragm. In addition, the housing for the diaphragm, the capsule, has many engineering positives. Small diaphragms don't swing (react to sound) anywhere near as much as the larger boom mic diaphragm. That means the lav's output voltage, referred to as its sensitivity, is a lot lower than a boom mic.Because of this, lavs require more gain and with the gain comes noise.

Lavs are mostly omnidirectional. Boom mics are mostly super or hypercardioid. Lavs pretty much HAVE to be omni when worn that closely. There are directional (cardioid) lavs, but they're only used on certain occasions. Lavs are subject to more placement problems. Even though they are omni, a simple head turn can be heard as a fall off of level. If you're doing narrative work, you need to hide the lav and that can create clothing noise, loss of high frequencies and strange sound, if for example, the lave is placed under the chin in a tie knot or inside the front edge of a shirt collar.

There are other reasons but these'll do.

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow audio Forum Leader

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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ryan elder
Re: Should I sell my boom mics and by lavs instead?
on Nov 4, 2018 at 6:56:39 pm

Oh okay thanks. I used lavs a couple of times before when doing other people's projects, where they wanted to use lavs.

I thought that lavs required less gain, because the mic is closer to the talents mouth compared to a boom mic. So therefore, the gain doesn't have to be turned up as much to get proper levels, compared to a boom mic, where I had to turn the gain up higher.

Is that true though? That has just been my experience, unless I was doing something wrong.


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Ty Ford
Re: Should I sell my boom mics and by lavs instead?
on Nov 4, 2018 at 7:02:28 pm

Ryan,

If that is your experience, then you've been positioning the boom mic a lot farther away than you should.

At or about a distance of three feet, the discernible difference in quality of most boom mics is inaudible.

You normally want to be closer than that. With fairly low ambient noise, 1-2 feet is good about it.

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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ryan elder
Re: Should I sell my boom mics and by lavs instead?
on Nov 4, 2018 at 8:22:15 pm

Yep that's what I did the boom mic was about two feet away for a lot of the shots, which were medium close ups. However, with a lav, it's six to 9 inches away from the actor.

So wouldn't the gain have to be turned up a lot less, if the mic is 6 - 9 inches away, compared to 1.5 - 2 feet?


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ryan elder
Re: Should I sell my boom mics and by lavs instead?
on Nov 4, 2018 at 8:32:15 pm

In close up shots, a boom operator can get the mic in real close, but what about master shots?

Like if you at this scene here as an example:







In that scene for the first master shot you see, the mic is quite far from the actor since it's a wide master shot. So when the mic is that far away, wouldn't the gain have to be turned up quite high, if using a boom mic?


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Ty Ford
Re: Should I sell my boom mics and by lavs instead?
on Nov 4, 2018 at 9:55:33 pm

I've already answered that question.

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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Bouke Vahl
Troll alert
on Nov 4, 2018 at 8:38:16 pm

Hi Ty,
Save your breath.
This guy is a troll who will not listen and will never stop. He's been puked out by others (including me) already on several other forums here.

Do not feed him.

(Moderation does not kick in for some reason.)

Bouke
http://www.videotoolshed.com


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Ty Ford
Re: Troll alert
on Nov 4, 2018 at 9:56:52 pm

Thanks, BV.

So noted

Ty

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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ryan elder
Re: Troll alert
on Nov 4, 2018 at 10:01:03 pm

Sorry I did not mean to come off as a troll. I was seriously, legitimately asking if I should sell my boom mics and booming equipment for lav mics, since lav mics can be operated without the use of a boom operator.

I thought that was a good, legitimate question to ask, and did not count as trolling. Is that not an okay question to ask, when it comes to audio production?


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Bill Davis
Re: Troll alert
on Nov 8, 2018 at 1:14:29 am

[ryan elder] "I thought that was a good, legitimate question to ask, and did not count as trolling. Is that not an okay question to ask, when it comes to audio production?
"


Overall it is legitimate. Just remarkably shallow.

Think of mics are like spices, each one having it's own "flavor profile."

This one has low self noise but requires phantom power, this other one needs NO power, this third one needs batteries. This one is balanced. This one is unbalanced. This one has an omni pattern, this one a cardiod pattern, this one sports a hemispherical boundary pattern.

So in this analogy, you're asking if you should sell off all your salt and only cook with sugar from now on.

Thing is, you'd NEVER ask a cook that. It's a silly idea.

Each mic has a flavor. Most sound folk want to learn to be really good audio cooks. Which means they have an array of mics they choose from to solve the specific audio problems they need to solve.

There is no one "perfect" mic. Just various designs and adaptations designed to do specific jobs as well as physics allows.

Good recordists match the mic types they use to he job that needs to be done - like good cooks deploy spices to make their meals taste better.

That's just how it works.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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ryan elder
Re: Troll alert
on Nov 8, 2018 at 4:49:06 am

Yep for sure, I see what you mean. I just figured since I am on a microbudget, I cannot afford all types of mics, and have to be more choosy therefore. But I can see how there is no one size fits all sort of thing.

If I were to make this decision based on my experience, I like the sound of the boom mics better, compared to lavs and would ideally like to keep using the ones I have, as I felt I invested in ones that do a good job, if I can find a boom operator who can boom well.


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ryan elder
Re: Troll alert
on Nov 8, 2018 at 4:49:56 am

So I will keep looking for a good boom operator, if that is the best solution.


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Ty Ford
Re: Troll alert
on Nov 8, 2018 at 12:59:14 pm

Where are you?

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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ryan elder
Re: Troll alert
on Nov 8, 2018 at 10:21:36 pm

Right now, I'm in Regina, Canada.


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Ty Ford
Re: Troll alert
on Nov 8, 2018 at 11:12:39 pm

Phew! that's a long way from anywhere helpful.

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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ryan elder
Re: Troll alert
on Nov 8, 2018 at 11:14:30 pm

So you are saying it's impossible to find a good boom operator where I live? I am willing to work with someone from another city and pay for accommodations for that person.


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Ty Ford
Re: Troll alert
on Nov 8, 2018 at 11:25:24 pm

Not impossible, but difficult even though it is a capital.

I googled regina canada and professional video.

Here's the link: https://tinyurl.com/y85mol29

Reach out to the video community up there and make some new friends.

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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ryan elder
Re: Troll alert
on Nov 8, 2018 at 11:59:09 pm

Okay thanks! Two of those places are rental services, but they do not have boom operators to rent. Just equipment rental only. The third place may rent out actual human operators, but if not, I can aim for bigger cities, and perhaps just fly someone in.

I know a few people in the filmmaking community from film school, and have contacts there, but unfortunately, no one wanted to be a boom operator specifically, so they are tough to find.

I can do it but as director, I prefer to be looking through the camera to make sure everything looks good. Do you think maybe I should just risk it, and be my own boom operator and director like I have a couple of times before?

I don't like doing it cause then I cannot see through the camera so it not sure if things are in focus all the time and what not.

But maybe if I can find a good DP than I can be own boom operator if I have to be.


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Ty Ford
Re: Troll alert
on Nov 9, 2018 at 12:19:13 am

My thought was to network at these places and see if anyone knows of a good boom op that they can recommend.

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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ryan elder
Re: Troll alert
on Nov 9, 2018 at 12:25:41 am

Oh okay, sure I can try that :). Thanks. I can just ask if they know any, if that's best. I bought some equipment from a place too and can just ask if that's good.


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Ty Ford
Re: Troll alert
on Nov 9, 2018 at 1:24:15 am

one word > networking.

Become the video networking master of Regina!

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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ryan elder
Re: Troll alert
on Nov 9, 2018 at 5:20:04 am

Yep thanks, sounds good, I will try!


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Ty Ford
Re: Troll alert
on Nov 10, 2018 at 2:46:18 pm

This just in from another forum I wander around in...

Roger Roscoe say., "Perhaps try contacting IATSE Local 295." Right there in Regina!

http://www.iatse295.com/

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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ryan elder
Re: Troll alert
on Nov 10, 2018 at 6:38:52 pm

Oh okay thanks. I didn't know IATSE had a department in Regina even. I assume the prices would be higher but maybe it will be worth. I'll check it out. Thanks.


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