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MAJOR Gamma Shift Between Premiere and Encoder Export

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Jason Jammer
MAJOR Gamma Shift Between Premiere and Encoder Export
on Jan 30, 2017 at 3:47:43 pm

Hello,

This is an issue I've been battling for years and just when I thought I was managing the issue... this happens.

Here is a side by side export of the same frame.

Left frame is from Encoder using the High Bit Rate Setting.

Right frame is from Premiere using the High Bit Rate Setting.

The final output should be what Premiere is exporting. A darker green.

I constructed this using video from a cannon 5D, adding b/w filter on the video and putting a green matte on top at 70% opacity.

I'm using Premiere Pro CC 2017 and Windows 7.

Thanks. Any insight on this will be greatly appreciated.



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Jon Doughtie
Re: MAJOR Gamma Shift Between Premiere and Encoder Export
on Jan 31, 2017 at 8:43:04 pm

Do you see the same problem viewing with something other than Quicktime Player? QT Player has some known issues.

System:
Dell Precision T7600 (x2)
Win 7 64-bit
32GB RAM
Adobe CC 2015.02 (as of 6/2016)
256GB SSD system drive
4 internal media drives RAID 5
Typically cutting short form from HD MP4 and P2 MXF.


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Jason Jammer
Re: MAJOR Gamma Shift Between Premiere and Encoder Export
on Feb 1, 2017 at 3:42:26 pm

Hi Jon,

Thank you for responding. I also used VLC and the same gamma shift occurs.

My only solution at this point is to adjust the opacity until the render is how my screen displays.

For example, I am also using a red matte that looks great on the screen at 50% but renders looking like 25%, completely washed out. So I adjusted the opacity to 75% and after rendering I'm close to what 50% looks like which is acceptable.

Any other advice will be greatly appreciated.


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Tero Ahlfors
Re: MAJOR Gamma Shift Between Premiere and Encoder Export
on Feb 2, 2017 at 6:40:47 am

[Jason Jammer] "Any other advice will be greatly appreciated."

Are you using GPU acceleration? What if you turn that off and export?


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Jason Jammer
Re: MAJOR Gamma Shift Between Premiere and Encoder Export
on Feb 2, 2017 at 2:47:57 pm

I do have that turned off.


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Jason Jammer
Re: MAJOR Gamma Shift Between Premiere and Encoder Export
on Feb 2, 2017 at 5:29:34 pm

Interesting thing I just found. So exploring all the CUDA settings which I thought were all turned off.

I went into the sequence settings and found "Composite in Linear Color (requires GPU acceleration or max render quality) was checked by default.

I unchecked this and did a test render and the outcome had very little gamma shift compared to what the image looks like in Premiere.

Check out the results.





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Dan Powers
Re: MAJOR Gamma Shift Between Premiere and Encoder Export
on Feb 2, 2017 at 10:07:07 pm

That is still a pretty significant difference.... I am on OSX and what I render looks identical. I think if I were you, I would do a chat session with Adobe support and let them do some remote testing. What you are getting is not acceptable.


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Jason Jammer
Re: MAJOR Gamma Shift Between Premiere and Encoder Export
on Feb 3, 2017 at 2:49:03 pm

Hi Dan,

The difference is totally unacceptable but the render on the right is only slightly off from Premiere. The render on the left is completely off and all the difference is that check box i mention above.

Jason


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Peter Garaway
Re: MAJOR Gamma Shift Between Premiere and Encoder Export
on Feb 6, 2017 at 11:18:55 pm

Hi Jason,

Can you share some more details on your system and project?

- System specs (OS, GPU, etc..)
- Media type
- Effects used (if any)
- Export settings

Thanks!

Peter

Peter Garaway
Adobe
Premiere Pro


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Jason Jammer
Re: MAJOR Gamma Shift Between Premiere and Encoder Export
on Feb 7, 2017 at 2:21:32 pm

Hi Peter,

Here are the details. Thanks for responding. I'm free to talk privately if possible.

- System specs (OS, GPU, etc..)
Dell Precision T7910, WIndows 7 64bit, NVidia Quadro K4200, CC 2017. All software and drivers up to date.

- Media type
8bit PNG, 8bit MP4 DSLR

- Effects used (if any)
b/w filter applied to the MP4 and Overlay color blend applied to the PNG at 70% opacity

- Export settings
Default High Bit Rate from both Premiere and Encoder


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Peter Garaway
Re: MAJOR Gamma Shift Between Premiere and Encoder Export
on Feb 15, 2017 at 11:13:49 pm

Hi Jason,

Sorry for the delay. I was out of town all last week. Can you reach out to me thorough my email pgaraway @ adobe dot com

Thanks!

Peter Garaway
Adobe
Premiere Pro


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Jacob Sørensen
Re: MAJOR Gamma Shift Between Premiere and Encoder Export
on Feb 21, 2017 at 10:30:47 am

Could you please give an update on the issue here at some point? ☺


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Duke Sweden
Re: MAJOR Gamma Shift Between Premiere and Encoder Export
on Feb 21, 2017 at 1:59:13 pm

Through months of intense research I've discovered that AME does not like h264. When I encode using WMV I get exact reproductions of my video as they appear in Premiere Pro. I realize this is not an option for you pros (although I see no difference in quality, it takes FOREVER to render to wmv), perhaps this can give the engineers at Adobe a starting point in troubleshooting the problem.


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Jason Jammer
Re: MAJOR Gamma Shift Between Premiere and Encoder Export
on Feb 22, 2017 at 2:24:14 pm

Hello Everyone,

I’ve been in contact with Adobe and they have shown interest in looking into the issue. I created a sample file along with sending them my Encoder Preset. Hopefully they will be able to duplicate the shift on their end which in turn may warrant a conference call.

The people at Adobe are very busy and I value any time they put towards solving this issue. If it comes to a call with them I will let everyone know the results.

In the meantime, comprise has been my only solution to this issue. I do a lot of render testing and make adjustments as needed. If you scroll up and see my post from Feb 2 that shows the side by side render along with the Sequence Settings panel. I found very significant differences with “Composite In Linear Color” UNCHECKED as opposed to CHECKED.


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Duke Sweden
Re: MAJOR Gamma Shift Between Premiere and Encoder Export
on Feb 24, 2017 at 12:08:16 am

I did another search on this problem and 6 threads on the adobe forum came up. This problem goes back at least as far as CS6, so I don't think Adobe is in any rush to fix this. Just curious if users of other NLE's have had this problem. I've never seen any complaints.


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Duke Sweden
Re: MAJOR Gamma Shift Between Premiere and Encoder Export
on Feb 24, 2017 at 12:10:12 am

Haven't had a chance to read it all yet but this may be of interest.

http://nofilmschool.com/2014/09/massive-difference-export-quality-fcpx-and-...


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Duke Sweden
Re: MAJOR Gamma Shift Between Premiere and Encoder Export
on Feb 24, 2017 at 11:19:44 pm

I think I may have discovered why encodes have a color shift in them. It's not the encode, it's Premiere Pro. I just opened a new file, no effects or lumetri or ANYTHING added to it, and I noticed it looked yellower than the original file. I never open my original file before opening it in Premiere Pro but this time I did. I noticed that I was getting fairly good skin tone, but in Premiere Pro it had a yellow cast. So, obviously, if I go to tweak the colors in Premiere Pro to, say, give the skin tone a more pinkish hue, I'm actually pushing it towards the purple hue I get when I encode it. So it's not Media Encoder, it's Premiere Pro.

Again, something for somebody at Adobe to look into. Assuming I'm not the only person left staying with this.


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Duke Sweden
Re: MAJOR Gamma Shift Between Premiere and Encoder Export
on Feb 24, 2017 at 11:30:43 pm

Here, you can't get any more obvious than this.
On the right is the unmodified straight out of camera file, still frame in VLC.
On the left is the same file opened in Premiere Pro, with NOTHING done to it.



Obviously a yellow cast. If I color correct it, it will push it too far towards pink. I can calibrate until the cows come home and it's not going to make two different images look the same on the same monitor when they're obviously different. Again, that's VLC, NOT Quicktime.

Now who's the lunatic!?! Don't answer that.


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Chris Wright
Re: MAJOR Gamma Shift Between Premiere and Encoder Export
on Feb 25, 2017 at 6:26:01 am
Last Edited By Chris Wright on Feb 25, 2017 at 6:47:11 am

I finished some tests on this problem. I did not compare exporting premiere vs AME as that has already been proven conclusively a bug. I focused on only premiere exports to original vs VLC. This is what I found.

1. exporting out of premiere and comparing difference to original is no pixel change RGB info values
2. screenshoting from VLC into AE difference matte is no pixel change RGB info values
3. screenshoting from premiere into AE difference matte is no pixel change RGB info values
4. making a color transform lut with https://sellfy.com/p/aQ1y/ has no pixel change

What I can deduce is that possibly the VLC media player and premiere both interpret the pixel values and display via opengl in slightly different ways in certain video cards. The biggest problem being that without a broadcast monitor, there is no way to color correct accurately or make conversion luts. I am now working on a colorpicker transform lut at opengl level.

update:
colorpicker VLC matches premiere preview in my configuration. I am now testing another color picker... both color pickers match.

Final result: I cannot replicate VLC color problem on this system. furthur testing on other systems required to narrow down gfx card/vlc color problem.


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Peter Garaway
Re: MAJOR Gamma Shift Between Premiere and Encoder Export
on Mar 1, 2017 at 11:33:06 pm

Hi All,

After some testing with the project and files provided by Jason I wasn't able to reproduce the same major color shift between Premiere and AME - as long as the settings matched, i.e. GPU, max quality and composite in linear color. Unfortunately, I do not have an answer for this problem as I could not reproduce it on 3 different machines using different windows versions and GPU's. I can follow up with you Jason offline.

One thing I'd like to point out is the difference in color when 'composite in linear color' is enabled vs disabled. There's been lots of post about this feature which I'll include links below. In short, compositing in linear is gamma set to 1.0. Compositing in linear color will generally look more natural for compositing real video footage, but worse for synthetic computer generated graphics like the example Jason provided in the post dated 'Feb 2, 2017, at 9:29:34 am. To avoid this look you will want to disable 'composite in linear color'.

Additional posts:

http://www.keenlive.com/renderbreak/2013/10/premiere-pro-linear-compositing...

http://s3.artbeats.com/articles/pdf/linear_light.pdf







Peter Garaway
Adobe
Premiere Pro


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Mike Kelland
Re: MAJOR Gamma Shift Between Premiere and Encoder Export
on Mar 2, 2017 at 1:41:39 am

I think it's the same issue - I'm battling with colour differences when max bit depth is enabled and disabled in combination with viewing with Open CL on and off (yellow bar above or red bar above). When I enable max bit depth the image goes more magenta.

There's a definite bug in there - the colour should be the same between settings. It makes colour correcting a nightmare, i.e which is the real colour??

nMP 2013 D700


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Duke Sweden
Re: MAJOR Gamma Shift Between Premiere and Encoder Export
on Mar 3, 2017 at 2:30:03 am

Try reading my posts! It's not a problem between Premiere Pro and AME. It's between Premiere Pro and media players, like VLC. Look at the picture I posted above. Half is Premiere Pro's Program Window, untouched, footage straight from the camera, and the other side is the same footage in VLC, straight from the camera.

Now, it turns out that VLC has a whole bunch of settings you can use to tweak color, gamma, etc., but they're so sensitive they're useless. Just looking at the hue control sends the colors way off.

As for unchecking render in composite linear or whatever it is, that changes my aspect ratio! My video loses width and gets black bars on the sides. So that's not an option either.


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Chris Wright
Re: MAJOR Gamma Shift Between Premiere and Encoder Export
on Mar 3, 2017 at 7:43:30 am

i tested another computer with a colorpicker with premiere and vlc, same result. pixels are identical down to RGB code. i did install a fresh copy of vlc so perhaps try uninstalling vlc, delete its old color preferences folder and install the latest version. I am running win7, premiere 2017.0.2 vlc 2.2.4. make sure your gfx driver is set to 0-255 not 16-235 in utility control panel.


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Duke Sweden
Re: MAJOR Gamma Shift Between Premiere and Encoder Export
on Mar 3, 2017 at 4:32:04 pm

My "graphics driver" doesn't give me that option. I told you it's an integrated Intel 3D graphics card with 0 RAM assigned to it. Reinstalling VLC won't do anything as I get the same result in Quicktime and Windows Media Player.

Here's what I'm gonna do. This short 8 second clip looks perfect in Premiere Pro. The skin tone is exactly what my skin tone looks like in real life. In VLC it tends towards pink/purple. When I move it more towards yellow, it just adds yellow to my skin tone, it doesn't "de-pink" it. Anyway, here's the clip. You tell me, on your professional, calibrated monitors (NOT being sarcastic here) how this clip looks to you. I checked the youtube version to the VLC and it matches so what you're seeing would look the same to you in VLC.







Please, all of you who color grade and have calibrated monitors, weigh in. It may be my PC and monitor is causing me all this grief and I'm wasting my time tweaking (which I've tried many times, both the PC and Intel graphics calibration and my HDTV's calibration tools)


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Duke Sweden
Re: MAJOR Gamma Shift Between Premiere and Encoder Export
on Mar 3, 2017 at 4:35:09 pm

P.S. View it on youtube. For some reason this embedded version is darker than it should be.


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Duke Sweden
Re: MAJOR Gamma Shift Between Premiere and Encoder Export
on Mar 3, 2017 at 5:38:41 pm

And just to add one more twist to this, I reinstalled cc 2014, opened a file, made some obvious tweaks so I could compare more easily, and sure enough the encoded file matched what I was seeing in cc2014 perfectly. Grrrrrr....


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Chris Wright
Re: MAJOR Gamma Shift Between Premiere and Encoder Export
on Mar 3, 2017 at 10:21:25 pm

I understand that youtube and vlc match from your previous post. Got it.
The youtube clip does appear a little magenta. I actually like this 'grade', looks nice! well anyway, here's the thing, after you upload to youtube, youtube changes the colors again! I tested some other g7 footage and premiere matches exactly with vlc, again...
Can you upload a 1 sec. clip from raw g7/g4 footage?

in vlc-tools-preferences-enable use hardware yuv->RGb conversions.
set output to openGL video output
in vlc, effects, filters, disable video effects

if this fails , I might be able to make a correction LUT for you. Can you please take this image, open it in VLC, uncheck video always fit windows, zoom original size,
screenshot that and upload back as a PNG. I'll use that to create a conversion 16&64 LUT you can use in premiere.

https://i1.creativecow.net/u/110024/neutral-512.png


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Duke Sweden
Re: MAJOR Gamma Shift Between Premiere and Encoder Export
on Mar 3, 2017 at 10:43:20 pm

How can I upload just one second of an out of camera clip? I'd have to trim it to one second and render it, right?

Those VLC instructions, are those to correct the color problem or a tutorial on how to trim a raw file down to one second? Gonna try it while I wait for your reply.

btw, I'm glad you liked the grade as it appears, but the way I intend it to look is better.


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Duke Sweden
Re: MAJOR Gamma Shift Between Premiere and Encoder Export
on Mar 3, 2017 at 10:52:05 pm

That appears to have fixed the problem (openGL. Previously it was set to Automatic). I'll have to encode a short video with weird hues so it's easier to compare. I'll update shortly.


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Chris Wright
Re: MAJOR Gamma Shift Between Premiere and Encoder Export
on Mar 3, 2017 at 10:54:25 pm

i need the trimmed raw clip to determine if your camera's colors are magenta. I'm trying to see if you have many video codecs installed like klite-codec or something and its overriding default colors with vfw etc.

im trying to get your vlc to default color mode.


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Duke Sweden
Re: MAJOR Gamma Shift Between Premiere and Encoder Export
on Mar 3, 2017 at 11:02:17 pm

But how do I trim it without rendering it? If I render it'll no longer be a raw out of camera clip. Anyway I'm going out back to shoot some more test video. I'll shoot a one second clip. I assume you want me to post it to youtube right? Or upload it here in a zip file?

Also, I do have k-lite installed but I don't think I'm using it, plus as I said changing from "automatic" to "openGL video" seems to have fixed the problem.


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Chris Wright
Re: MAJOR Gamma Shift Between Premiere and Encoder Export
on Mar 3, 2017 at 11:08:30 pm

it sounds fixed. magenta all gone?
don't worry about shooting anything then.


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Duke Sweden
Re: MAJOR Gamma Shift Between Premiere and Encoder Export
on Mar 3, 2017 at 11:22:10 pm

Yes, magenta is gone! I already shot some footage. I'll upload the 2 second out of camera file here for you to play with, if you want to. Can't tell you how much I appreciate all the effort you put into helping me, Chris. Adobe could learn a thing or two about customer service from you.

11099_p1000054.rar.zip


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Duke Sweden
Re: MAJOR Gamma Shift Between Premiere and Encoder Export
on Mar 4, 2017 at 12:25:36 am

ok, final follow up. Video is appearing in VLC exactly as it appears in Premiere Pro Program window. Thanks again, Chris.

You other guys, I hope his research and solutions help you out as well. Cheers.


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