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Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube

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Jim Elliott
Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jan 4, 2017 at 1:59:54 am

Well, this is depressing. I don't know if something is wrong with my MacBook 2016, but I've noticed that footage in the Premiere program monitor looks VERY different to the exported video in various platforms, to the extent that I don't even know why I bother color correcting! I took some screenshots of the exact same video (below). This is a H.264 export at 16mbps. I also tried various other exports (quicktime, matched source, prores etc) and got some results.

Premiere is what I want it to look like, and vlc represents this very very well. But Quicktime, Vimeo & Youtube (safari), Preview (Mac) all produce the same gamma shift and desaturation. With Firefox Vimeo going in the opposite direction and looking like the woman's face is on fire. I exported to my iPhone via dropbox and the results were somewhere in between.

THIS IS CRAZY?! I know there isn't a HUGE difference, but its enough to make me not want to bother colouring anything ever again knowing that I have no idea whether it will be played by people on Vimeo/quicktime (way more drained than what I'm editing/seeing in Premiere) or VLC (accurate to Premiere, but...so what)

Has anyone got any pointers? Give up making videos?



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Chris Wright
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jan 4, 2017 at 2:14:33 am

I can't promise this will work for you, but many people have had luck using this LUT I made for youtube.

64 cube iridas lut for burning in darker 16-235 from 0-255 for youtube upload. it darkens image, then youtube re-lightens again.
https://f1.creativecow.net/10598/fixmyyoutube

note:
it doesn't work with adjustment layers directly
you have to use it in the dropdown for the export in adobe media encoder. or you can NEST it first.
its a premiere bug. also it needs to be copied in both premiere-lumetri-technical and adobe media encoder-lumetri-technical


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jan 4, 2017 at 2:50:14 am

I'm going to guess you expect every viewing application to be identical. Well, they're not. So you're just banging your head against a brick wall.

Do you have some specified delivery drstination? Make your stuff look right for it and let the chips fall where they may.

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Tero Ahlfors
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jan 4, 2017 at 7:31:19 am

You need to listen to this: https://soundcloud.com/mixinglight/mail-bag-ep1-part2


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Jim Elliott
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jan 5, 2017 at 1:13:36 am

I think one of the complicating issues is that I have a brand new MacBook and a brand new monitor, both are p3 wide gamut. Am I better of working with an sRGB color space? There seems to be a lot less difference between, say, quicktime and premiere in sRGB than the same 2 programs with the P3 wide profile


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Chris Wright
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jan 5, 2017 at 1:27:19 am

premiere can't color manage. it shows rec.709 in preview, render, and mercury transmit. you can use a p3 to rec. 709 LUT if you wish.
the internet is sRGB or basically rec. 709 0-255 with gamma 2.2. in this way, they are exactly the same. until you use a LUT, I recommend setting your monitor to sRGB. most video players can't play p3 except madvr


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Jim Elliott
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jan 6, 2017 at 12:08:24 am

Thanks, setting to sRGB does bump up the saturation of the quicktime/safari/chrome etc family, and brings it closer to the vlc/premiere colours, but I am wary that this is kinda false and that it won't help the fact that this will encourage me to make less saturated videos ... which is the problem for clients.

Im concerned about the new apple displays, mine included. Previous video projects now look very over-saturated in Premiere/VLC/firefox (which look almost exactly the same as eachother), and other players (quicktime, iPhone, iPad, chrome/safari Facebook/vimeo/youtube, Instagram) look comparatively desaturated (all very similar too each other though). This creates a very big problem going forward ... If I colour-correct my videos to look good in Premiere (as before), my videos end up looking washed out on iPhone/chrome/safari/quicktime/instagram... I would have to grossly oversaturate in Premiere (at least thats what it looks like) to get an acceptable video in all those other formats. It's all very depressing.

I didn't have this problem on my 2012 Mac. I have checked on it again recently and although there is maybe a slight difference between premiere/VLC and quicktime/iphone etc ... its like somehow on the new 2016 displays the differences between those groups are exaggerated due to the super-saturated-ness of whatever is making Premiere/VLC/firefox read the videos in that way.

2 days ago I handed a video to a client I have worked with for a long time producing similar videos, and they commented how desaturated and lifeless it looked compared to usual. This has never ever happened before. The video the client complained about was in the pic below, the one with the woman at the bottom. What you see here is a 'corrected' version. In premiere (left) I'm slightly more saturated than I would like, but it resulted in something the client was more happy as they (and all their customers) will watch the video with the players from the middle column (which still looks a bit yellow and anaemic to me. As for Firefox vimeo, compared to chrome/safari Vimeo ... wow, just, wow...



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Shane Ross
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jan 6, 2017 at 1:51:30 am

When I color correct a broadcast show, I use my calibrated broadcast monitor. That way I know it's the best that it can get. You are making the best that you can get. HOW OTHER APPS PLAY THAT BACK IS OUT OF YOUR CONTROL! Just like how various broadcast outlets like DirecTV and Comcast and Time Warner compress it for delivery is out of my control. And how people's TVs at home are set up are out of my control.

I recently onlined and graded a show for a network...2 hour doc. When it aired, the executive producer called me and the producer in a panic. "WHY IS THE SHOW SQUISHED AND CUT OFF!?!?!" The producer was watching it on DirecTV, and I ran to turn it on Time Warner. It looked fine. We asked him what he was talking about. He sent a screen shot. Sure enough, the 16:9 output we delivered was SQUEEZED to be letterboxed for no apparent reason on his TV. We couldn't figure this out. Now, it wasn't the CHANNEL that did what he saw, it was his cable providor....because we saw it fine. THE PROVIDOR DID THIS. No clue as to why.

But the point is, that you have control up to a point...and all you can do it make it look good when you deliver. How various players play that back, how it's compressed by YouTube or Vimeo, or Apple...is out of your hands.

I will say that I like the way QT plays it...she was a tad to orange for me...

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Chris Wright
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jan 6, 2017 at 2:28:31 am

you could trick this lut generator with a png shown in safari, screenshot it and use it for the "modified" png. should interpolate the lut transform.

https://generator.iwltbap.com/


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Jim Elliott
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jan 6, 2017 at 2:57:07 am

My current thinking is that I will replace my LG ultrafine monitor (P3) with an sRGB monitor. That way, hopefully I won't get massively over-saturated videos as there won't be such a need for colour management


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Chris Wright
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jan 6, 2017 at 3:03:15 am

here's a p3 to rec. 709 lut i made. some people say it helps.

https://f1.creativecow.net/9882/p3-to-rec-709-x64-iridas-cube


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Jim Elliott
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jan 6, 2017 at 3:04:37 am

Thanks! What exactly does this do again? And how to apply?


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Chris Wright
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jan 6, 2017 at 3:06:27 am

premiere's lumetri can load luts. some mac users with p3 monitors say it helps.


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Tero Ahlfors
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jan 6, 2017 at 8:34:40 am

[Jim Elliott] "My current thinking is that I will replace my LG ultrafine monitor (P3) with an sRGB monitor. That way, hopefully I won't get massively over-saturated videos as there won't be such a need for colour management"

If you really want to see how it looks you'll need a reference monitor that can be calibrated to a standard (rec709/srgb in this case) and an I/O device that will output a clean uncompressed signal from Premiere to that monitor. The Blackmagic Design Mini Monitor would be the minimum requirement. Anything other than that and it's a crapshoot and like Shane said when it leaves your color chain it's out of your hands.

http://www.lightillusion.com/why_calibrate.html


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Brian Mac
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jan 11, 2017 at 12:36:03 am

I, too, am now suddenly witnessing these problems. In nearly all of my exports (H.264 and ProRes - the codec doesn't matter), Quicktime and YouTube have a disgustingly different, less-saturated and more "washed out" look than what is displayed in Premiere and VLC. I am working on an iMac 5K monitor. I've read this thread and I'm still confused as of what to do to solve this issue. VLC is identical (if not, pretty darn close) to what my Premiere timeline and export preview shows. As soon as I upload my export to YouTube or view it in Quicktime, however, I get that desaturated washed out look during playback. This washed out look on YouTube and in Quicktime is the same on YouTube on my MacBook, iPhone, and iMac. This leads me to believe that my Premiere timeline and export preview is not true to what the export actually looks like. What trips me up, however, is how VLC looks the same as my Premiere timeline. Is there a setting within Premiere to fix this so my timeline is true to what the export will look like? Using a .LUT to compensate for lost saturation/contrast cannot be the only solution. Thank you in advance!


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Brian Mac
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jan 11, 2017 at 3:26:29 am

EDIT/UPDATE: After looking into this for the past three hours, this is almost certainly an issue with a wide gamut display and Premiere Pro. It is my understanding that Premiere Pro does not have any color management options and, as such, operates in the sRGB color space. As is a common issue when displaying the sRGB color space on a P3/wide gamut display like my iMac has, colors will be oversaturated. Within Premiere, color grading looks great but the video export is actually undersaturated because we are compensating for that oversaturation (as a result of the sRGB/P3 discrepancy). It seems as though the only fix right now is to color grade on a sRGB monitor or keep yelling at Adobe to enable color management options within Premiere Pro so that Premiere Pro can actually operate in the P3 color space and not completely skew what the export videos will actually look like.


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Jim Elliott
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jan 11, 2017 at 8:44:43 am

You are spot on, unfortunately. Final Cut has now got 'wide gamut support' meaning you can choose wide gamut or standard footage (will almost always be standard). I selected standard and the footage looks fine.

The problem IS premiere/Vlc on a wide gamut display

It's incredible more people haven't noticed and are aware of this issue as there is such a huge difference. I downloaded a trial of fcpx and there is becoming more and more reasons to fully migrate.

Any suggestions on how to shout at Adobe, surely they realise people are more likely to switch to final cut than buy an older mac (all macs post-2015 are wide gamut and impossible to grade in premiere)


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