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Mixing framerates in timeline (Still don't understand)

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Jon ShankMixing framerates in timeline (Still don't understand)
by on Aug 5, 2016 at 11:41:37 pm

For some reason I can't seem to grasp this.

Say I'm shooting a sports video with one camera. I want the option to slow down any portion of it so I want to shoot ALL of it in 60p. However the end product will be in 30p (I can interpret the footage to make it slowmotion).

But what's gonna happen with the native 60p footage that I decide I don't want in slow motion. Will it be skippy?

Also, say it was reversed and I was shooting in 24p but for some reason had to put it in a 30p timeline. What would that look like rendered out?


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Dave LaRondeRe: Mixing framerates in timeline (Still don't understand)
by on Aug 6, 2016 at 1:38:46 am

[Jon Shank] "But what's gonna happen with the native 60p footage that I decide I don't want in slow motion. Will it be skippy?"

Nope. 60p footage in a 30p timeline is just fine. You'll see every other frame of the 60p footage. And if you interpret a 60p clip to make it 30, it will be slo-mo.



[Jon Shank] "Also, say it was reversed and I was shooting in 24p but for some reason had to put it in a 30p timeline. What would that look like rendered out?"

Garbage. Crap. Avoid mising 24 & 30. Stick to 30 & 60.

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Jon ShankRe: Mixing framerates in timeline (Still don't understand)
by on Aug 6, 2016 at 1:53:15 pm

I heard it was bad to shoot 30 and export in 24 so why is it okay to shoot 60 and export in 30?

Also how will 24 exported at 30 look specifically, I'm trying to get a fundamental understanding of the effects of doing this.


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Gary HuffRe: Mixing framerates in timeline (Still don't understand)
by on Aug 6, 2016 at 4:19:33 pm

[Jon Shank] "I heard it was bad to shoot 30 and export in 24 so why is it okay to shoot 60 and export in 30?"

Because one is evenly divisible and one is not.

[Jon Shank] "Also how will 24 exported at 30 look specifically, I'm trying to get a fundamental understanding of the effects of doing this."

Are you unable to do a test export on a 24p project and see for yourself?


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Jon ShankRe: Mixing framerates in timeline (Still don't understand)
by on Aug 6, 2016 at 6:36:48 pm

I'm new to this stuff and don't notice a huge difference so I'm asking what specifically to look for besides it just being bad. I want to understand this on a fundamental level.


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Jeff ColemanRe: Mixing framerates in timeline (Still don't understand)
by on Aug 6, 2016 at 7:40:55 pm

The following discussions may help:

Mixing 23.976 and 29.97 footage - Premiere CC
https://forums.creativecow.net/thread/3/946556

Shooting in 24p, editing in 30p, easiest workflow?
https://forums.creativecow.net/thread/8/1112879

Mixing Frame Rates short tutorial






Mixing 24p and 30p in PPro
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?71465-Combining-24fps-amp-30fps...

Film on 60 fps, then convert to 24fps in Post? or film directly on 24fps?
http://nofilmschool.com/boards/questions/film-60-fps-then-convert-24fps-pos...


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Jon ShankRe: Mixing framerates in timeline (Still don't understand)
by on Aug 6, 2016 at 8:52:29 pm

I've already read those and they all talk about how you should shoot the way you want to export and that it will delete or add frames accordingly. My question is what visually will it look like if I added 24p footage into a timeline with 30p footage. Will the end product show noticeable difference between the native 30 and the 24 I added? If so what will it look like? Staccato? Blurry?


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Jeff ColemanRe: Mixing framerates in timeline (Still don't understand)
by on Aug 6, 2016 at 10:15:25 pm

Exactly what it will look like kind of depends upon the footage. You may want to test a piece of footage of the type you'll be shooting or shoot a piece of test footage and see how it looks.

To get 24p into a 30p timeline requires Premiere to repeat frames as those threads suggest. If you are watching something that is not moving or not moving much, I don't think you are going to see much of a difference really, but it may have a subtle difference in feel. The more movement, the more observable the repeating frames will be, thus creating a kind of staccato feel. Some people actually like a bit of that look as it looks less real, less broadcast tv as if you could sense the realization that you are watching the cellulose instead of a live image---extraordinary, cinematic, etc. I've had projects that have done all the interviews in 24p and all the b-roll in 30p and dropped it into a 30p timeline. It makes the interviews look different while the b-roll doesn't suffer from the artifacts of pulldown. For me, the more motion then the less I like it because it starts to feel like there's something wrong. Perhaps shoot in 60p, 30p, and 24p a close up of a football pass from throw to completion and drop them into a 30p timeline and see what they look like to you. Try the same for an interview. Subjective mileage varies. Hope that helps.

Notice Mr. Williams comment here:
https://forums.creativecow.net/thread/8/1112879

"Re: Shooting in 24p, editing in 30p, easiest workflow?
by Bret Williams on Dec 3, 2010 at 12:23:31 am

24p at 30p simply duplicates every 4th frame. The worst cadence you could ask for. It's not done anywhere I can think of. ... 24p at 30p isn't a very optimal or accepted practice. What happens when you add graphics or motion effects that are interacting on another timebase than the 24p footage? It would exaggerate the stutter.for example a logo flying across the screen would move at 30p, while the footage behind it would freeze frame momentarily while the graphic continues to move. This would occur on 20% of the frames."

and Mr. Okey has a strong opinion on that thread as well:
"Don't use 2:2:2:4 pulldown. Even a partially blind person can see its atrocious motion effects. Using 2:2:2:4 pulldown really is unprofessional. If you drop native 24p footage into a 30p sequence in FCP, 2:2:2:4 pulldown is what you'll get. Just don't do it."


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Jon ShankRe: Mixing framerates in timeline (Still don't understand)
by on Aug 7, 2016 at 1:40:06 am

Thank you so much for the informative post!

I guess my last question, is there any downside to bringing 60p to 24 timeline for slow motion instead of a 30p timeline.


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Jon ShankRe: Mixing framerates in timeline (Still don't understand)
by on Aug 8, 2016 at 4:13:39 pm

Sorry I worded that wrong.

So 60 to 30 is okay (no slowmotion).

Is 60 to 24 bad in the same way 30 to 24 is?


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Dave LaRondeRe: Mixing framerates in timeline (Still don't understand)
by on Aug 8, 2016 at 5:08:55 pm

60 fps footage in a 30fps timeline is okay. No problems. 60 fps footage conformed to 30 fps with be half-speed.

The following applied ONLY if the footage is progressive:
60 fps footage in a 24 fps timeline is okay. It will have built-in 3:2 pulldown in it, which is okay. 60 fps footage conformed to 24 fps will be 2.5 times slower than it originally was.


Now, let's get those frame rates straight -- when I say 60, I mean 59.94 fps. When I say 30, I mean 29.97 fps. When I say 24, I mean 23.976 fps. These fractional frame rates are far more common than their integer counterparts.

When I say "far more common", I mean you see the fractional frame rates about 97% of the time. That percentage may be even higher. That's because it almost always takes specialized cameras to shoot at the integer frame rates. Almost no one possesses these specialized cameras.

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Jon ShankRe: Mixing framerates in timeline (Still don't understand)
by on Aug 8, 2016 at 5:45:51 pm

Got it, so to make a little cheat sheet for myself

(This is non-conformed footage)

30 in 24 timeline = bad
60 in 24 timeline = okay
60 in 30 timeline = good


If anyone cares to explain the math to me (not a huge deal if not cause I get the gist but I am interested)

Why is 30 in a 24 timeline crap but 60 in a 24 timeline okay?


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Bala ChandranRe: Mixing framerates in timeline (Still don't understand)
by on Aug 8, 2016 at 8:02:22 pm

Simplified: If you are shooting 60p that will play at the same speed as 30p on the timeline. It will not slow down. 60p records at 30 frames per second with two progressive fields per frame. 30p is only 30 progressive frames per second but both play at the same speed. 60i is 30 frames per second with each frame made up of two interlaced fields (not progressive), hence named 60i.
Now if you have a camera that you can set for 60 frames per second as SLOW MOTION, that WILL slow down to half speed in play back. That's different from 60p 30fs.


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Jeff PuleraRe: Mixing framerates in timeline (Still don't understand)
by on Aug 8, 2016 at 8:46:08 pm

I would have to to disagree on this one - "60p records at 30 frames per second with two progressive fields per frame."

It is true that 60i records 30 frames per second, with 2 fields making up each frame (60 fields, or half-frames). Not true for 60p - which is made up of 60 progressive frames. Each frame is complete on its own. Therefore, when put into a 30p timeline at normal playback speed, only every other frame is displayed the same as if the video was recorded at 30p. One second of 60p plays for one second in a 30p timeline, with half the frames being disregarded.

A benefit of 60p in a 30p timeline is smooth slow-motion at 50% speed. 30p uses displays 30 frames every second. If the source is 60p, it has 60 frames per second. Played at 50% speed, one second of 60p plays for two seconds in a 30p timeline (at 50%) so there are no duplicate frames, no stuttering/choppy playback. 60p in a 24p timeline at 40% runs for 2.5 seconds, also nice and smooth.

The thing about 24p is that it is used for Hollywood movies because it has that "cinematic" look to it. That looks includes very choppy pans!! Unless you are purposely trying to get the movie look, do not shoot anything at 24p! It requires a whole different way of shooting to avoid issues. Not good at all for anything with fast action/fact camera moves.

If you take 60p or 30p down to 24p, you automatically get choppier motion since there are less individual frames being shown each second, but then you also get the weird cadence (order of frames) since the math doesn't divide out evenly.

Thanks

Jeff


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Jon ShankRe: Mixing framerates in timeline (Still don't understand)
by on Aug 8, 2016 at 11:03:23 pm

Up above someone said the cadence putting 60 into a 24 is okay because of a "natural 3:2 pulldown".

Is 60 in a 24 timeline good or bad or just okay?


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Bala ChandranRe: Mixing framerates in timeline (Still don't understand)
by on Aug 8, 2016 at 11:44:08 pm

My point was to not think that 60p will play at 50% slower speed compared to 30p, regardless of sequence settings. 30p, 60p and 60i will all play at the same speed. For instance an event that lasts for one second will play for one second, no matter 30p, 60p, 60i, 25p, 24p, 48p or 15p it's recorded at. Will play differently only if recorded as slow motion.

Asian Ocean Media
EX1, EX3, FS5, X70, AX53, CS6


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Bala ChandranRe: Mixing framerates in timeline (Still don't understand)
by on Aug 9, 2016 at 1:30:17 am

May be I misread the original post.

Asian Ocean Media
EX1|EX3|FS5|X70|AX53|D4|D750|CS6


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