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Duke SwedenOff topic but nowhere else to turn
by on Jun 8, 2016 at 10:55:05 pm

Hey, guys. I'm sorry to put an off topic post here but I have contacted the manufacturer TWICE, with no response. I've messaged others who have the Atomos Ninja 2, again with no response, I've googled every way possible to ask my question with no results, so... I'm hoping Jeff or anyone else who uses the Ninja 2 can answer my question for me.

I got this thing two days ago. It is supposed to detect the video mode going into it (i.e. 1080p 24fps, etc.) I've done everything Atomos website and videos say to do, but the only video modes that work are 1080i 59.976fps and 1080p 29.976. When I set it to 1080p 23.976 fps the REC and MON buttons are "grayed out". You're supposed to wave your hand in front of the lens and then the Ninja 2 will detect the input and turn the REC and MON buttons on, but it doesn't. This is driving me nuts. I read where Nikon (D5500 in my case) all output 24 fps so it's not like I'm not outputting that.

In the meantime I'm recording at 1080p and 29.976 fps, then placing the file into a 23.976 fps sequence in Premiere Pro. It kind of looks ok but I'm not sure if my eyes are deceiving me. While I wait for a response to my Ninja 2 question, can someone tell me if what I'm doing is acceptable practice? Again, it doesn't appear to be producing stuttered movement, but then again, I'm blind as a bat. I'll try to put up a sample video later.

HELP!!! :-)


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Vince BecquiotRe: Off topic but nowhere else to turn
by on Jun 9, 2016 at 12:00:18 am
Last Edited By Vince Becquiot on Jun 9, 2016 at 12:05:27 am

Hi Duke,

I'm pretty sure that the HDMI output is 1080P 29.97 only on the D5500, so that would explain why you are only able to record at that rate.

Ninja edit (No pun intended)

Seems to be confirmed on Atomos forum, although that's the 5300:

http://forum.atomos.com/archive/index.php/t-53817.html

Also here: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/archive/index.php/t-337536.html

Vince Becquiot

Indigo Live | Kaptis Media

San Francisco Bay Area


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Duke SwedenRe: Off topic but nowhere else to turn
by on Jun 9, 2016 at 12:20:28 am

Hey Vince. Thanks so much for responding! I'm telling you I searched high and low for articles like the one you linked to. I even emailed Nikon but they never responded. Yes, the D5500 is basically the same as the D5300 only with the swivel out LCD, and possibly no anti-alias filter. It's odd that both Nikon and Atomos mention that Nikon DSLR's (not just Nikon PRO DSLR's, but DSLR's, period!) output 24fps.

Well, that explains a lot. I had just come here to edit my initial post to add video I just shot (in 1080p 29.976fps). I exported at that frame rate, then changed it to 24fps in sequence settings, and, yeah, there is a bit of jitter in the 24 version.

So, what do I do to be able to get the "film look" that's been eluding me all this time, with one less weapon at my disposal!?! Is it more in the color grading than the frame rate, in your expert opinions?

Thanks again, Vince. I get to keep what little hair I have left ;-)


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Vince BecquiotRe: Off topic but nowhere else to turn
by on Jun 9, 2016 at 12:31:24 am

Hi Duke,

Yep, the 24P cinematic looks is more of an indie filmmaker tale and the fact that camera companies used to market as a novelty didn't help.

You certainly could export at 24P, you'll just be dropping frames.

Lighting and grading are really what you are after if you want that cinematic look.

Vince Becquiot

Indigo Live | Kaptis Media

San Francisco Bay Area


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Duke SwedenRe: Off topic but nowhere else to turn
by on Jun 9, 2016 at 12:36:13 am
Last Edited By Duke Sweden on Jun 9, 2016 at 12:45:25 am

Just as I thought. I love this forum. The fact that you pros will take the time to answer the baby questions of a hack amateur doofus like me when I have nowhere else to turn, well, what can I say. Thank you all.

Here is the video I rendered at two different frame rates. I think you can see that the false 24fps looks a bit jittery next to the 29.976 version. One of those posts in the link you gave me had an idea I could try to get 24fps out of the camera so I'll give it a shot, but now that I know a pro like you consider 24fps to be more of a gimmick than anything else, it's not so important. I think I didn't adjust the shutter speed to 1/60 on this. Anyway here are the videos.
24fps





29.97fps






Since I wanted to get this up fast I encoded at a min bit rate of 10. I guess that's why the red in my jacket looks a bit ragged?


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Chris WrightRe: Off topic but nowhere else to turn
by on Jun 9, 2016 at 1:00:58 am

ehhhh, if you record at 29.97 and export to 23.976 or 24fps without either slowing down or doing frame blending/optical pixel blending, you're gonna get really bad judder, like I see here. The camera is not moving and it is not supposed to look like that.

how to enable optical flow
https://helpx.adobe.com/premiere-pro/using/duration-speed.html#optical_flow


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Duke SwedenRe: Off topic but nowhere else to turn
by on Jun 9, 2016 at 1:47:51 am

Thanks, Chris. Yeah, as I said, I noticed the juddering effect when I changed the frame rate. Is your link really good for extended clips or just a quick fix for stuff like the example I posted? The article says Optical Flow is processor intensive, so...

Anyway, I've still got so much to learn with this Ninja 2. Still not pleased with my grading skills with all this extra bitrate to work with (220 mbps compared to h264's 24mbps (I think?) Anyway, thanks again!


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Chris WrightRe: Off topic but nowhere else to turn
by on Jun 9, 2016 at 1:59:57 am

it should work for any duration although it will increase render time. the best thing is to shoot 24p in the first place.
if you don't need 24p and can only shoot in 29.97, then just do 29.97. 24 is only for film output anyways.

if its still 8 bit output, the higher bitrate will only reduce compression, not precision. you still might be needing neatvideo if you do heavy grading in 8 bit footage.


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Duke SwedenRe: Off topic but nowhere else to turn
by on Jun 9, 2016 at 2:25:57 am

I don't "need" 24p, I just prefer it, although with what Vince told me, it's not so critical anymore. I assume you agree since you didn't question his point.

When you say 24p is for film output you do mean film as a final destination, right? Not as a "look"?

Yes, it's still 8 bit, although the D5500 does output 4:2:2. Yeah I do try to stay away from neat video, though, it's such a heavy plugin. But I will use it when necessary.

For now I'll just be sticking to my green screen nonsense (I must admit keying is a LOT easier now). I would like to go out beyond my back yard and do some artsy stuff, but that's for later. Last weekend's comicon was more than enough outside world for this month ;-)


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Chris WrightRe: Off topic but nowhere else to turn
by on Jun 9, 2016 at 2:44:20 am

23.976/24 is a 'look' as in film look. 29.97 progressive does some similar things but features much less judder.

Depending on how you move the camera, lighting, framing, anamorphic, fps all contribute to the 'look'. if you reduce only one feature, if the others are professional, most people won't notice.

the lower the framerate, the heavier use you need for warp stabilizer or steadicams etc. plus 7 sec panning speed. :0


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Duke SwedenRe: Off topic but nowhere else to turn
by on Jun 9, 2016 at 3:15:26 am

Still working on my glidecam technique. Seriously, Chris, it's just me and my equipment. I have no one to help me. My son is mentally handicapped so I'm lucky I can even get a performance out of him.

Everything I do revolves around my tripod. I just shot some glidecam stuff this past weekend. I thought I was better than that but still need to work on it, but for the most part, even when I venture outside, I'll probably use the tripod. I would really, at some point, like to shoot a one hour feature, but right now, it's just green screens and tripods. I don't even know what 7 sec panning speed refers to, although I will google it right now ;-)


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Duke SwedenRe: Off topic but nowhere else to turn
by on Jun 9, 2016 at 1:14:37 pm

I would like to add here that I tried the technique mentioned in the atomos message board about starting to record on the camera before turning on the Ninja 2 (hereby referred to as the N2) and I was able to shoot in 1080p 23.976 fps. Hopefully Nikon will fix this in a future firmware update (which I'm not counting on) but at least I have my beloved 24 fps back! No offense, Vince :-)

And, yes, I did open the file in Premiere Pro and checked the info. Is there a way to check if a file is 1080i or p? I recorded some heavy duty movements and there was no interlacing so I know it's 1080p, just wondering if there's a visual indicator of whether a clip is 1080p without rendering and checking it for interlacing.


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Jeff PuleraRe: Off topic but nowhere else to turn
by on Jun 9, 2016 at 2:11:36 pm

Hi Duke,

Just spotted your thread. All of my cameras output 1080i only, so zero experience with 24p workflows, sorry, but looks like you are in good hands with the other helpful posters!

I would comment on this - "with all this extra bitrate to work with (220 mbps compared to h264's 24mbps ". I believe I mentioned last week that you should not need to use the "HQ" recording mode, and I bet you would be quite satisfied with "422" mode on the Ninja with files at maybe 150mbps. As you stated, the camera is maybe 24mbps, so 150mbps is a heck of an improvement, and without having a really high-end camera as the source, the HQ mode may not look any better than 422 due to the source material.

Thanks

Jeff Pulera
Safe Harbor Computers


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Duke SwedenRe: Off topic but nowhere else to turn
by on Jun 9, 2016 at 3:25:12 pm

1080i? Why, those are like, baby cameras! ;-) Just kidding.

Yeah, I guess I'll try 422, but since I'll never be able to afford a 150 ft. yacht, at least I can brag that I have a 240 meg bit rate. The chicks seem to dig it. OK, I'm going off topic as usual.

Thanks for responding even though my question was already answered. It's good to know you're out there when I need your advice.
Cheers!


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Jeff PuleraRe: Off topic but nowhere else to turn
by on Jun 9, 2016 at 3:33:31 pm

My cameras are several years old - HDV tape cameras - but when recorded by the Ninja, still making beautiful video!

I should note that it's standard for a lot of camcorders (not DSLR-types) that offer 24p/30p record modes to output as 1080i regardless. This is done because displays don't always support 24p or 30p, but always work with 1080i so that is the output standard used by the camera makers. So you can tease me about 1080i, but many cameras don't offer anything else out the HDMI port ;-)

Thanks

Jeff


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Duke SwedenRe: Off topic but nowhere else to turn
by on Jun 9, 2016 at 3:55:26 pm

Come on you know I'm only joking! I'm sure you could turn out better video quality than me with a Fisher-Price "My First Camcorder" :-)


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Jeff PuleraRe: Off topic but nowhere else to turn
by on Jun 9, 2016 at 4:02:32 pm



Now if only I could get this interfaced to Ninja 2, I wouldn't have to scrounge resale shops to find old cassette tapes to record to...


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Vince BecquiotRe: Off topic but nowhere else to turn
by on Jun 9, 2016 at 5:55:22 pm

You'd be surpised Duke. 1080i is still most of what you'll find in the broadcast world where everything goes through SDI.

Even $60,000+ camera often still output 1080i only.

Vince Becquiot

Indigo Live | Kaptis Media

San Francisco Bay Area


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Duke SwedenRe: Off topic but nowhere else to turn
by on Jun 9, 2016 at 6:03:08 pm

Oh, I know. I was just yankin' Jeff. We're buds.

Jeff, How do you use the Ninja 2 if you can't interface it with your cameras?


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