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Editing a Multiclip

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Andy NeilEditing a Multiclip
by on Apr 13, 2016 at 6:25:25 pm

I'm having an issue with my multiclips and would like to know if I'm doing it wrong or not.

Multiclip is built using two video sources and one audio recorded separately. When AE built multiclip, he opened the clip in timeline and deleted the camera audio because it normally is terrible. So afterwards I end up with two video tracks and two audio tracks (from the audio recorder).

However, in this instance, the audio guy ran actual mics through to the video cameras so there was usable audio on those cameras. I reopened the multiclip in timeline, matchframed the video sources and edited the camera audio back into the multiclip sequence.

In timeline mode it plays exactly correct. But when I double click the multiclip to load into the source monitor, I end up with 2 audio tracks (as before), not the 5 that exist when I open the same clip in timeline. In fact, the 2 audio tracks are a mixdown of all five, or at least that's what it seems.

I've checked the sequence settings for the multiclip and it's set to multichannel audio and 8 audio tracks, but no matter what I do, I can't get it to display or play audio correctly. In addition, the waveforms no longer show up in the source or timeline for clips that were edited into the main sequence. Basically, making changes to the multiclip has completely screwed up the multiclip and my only option if I want those audio tracks is to completely remake the multiclip.

Is there something I'm doing wrong, or is this just a huge bug? I can't imagine Premiere letting you open a multiclip in timeline mode only to go nuts when you try to modify or edit the multiclip.

Andy

https://plus.google.com/u/0/107277729326633563425/videos


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Herb SevushRe: Editing a Multiclip
by on Apr 13, 2016 at 9:01:08 pm

Andy -

When making multiclips in Ppro CC there are 3 ways to handle the audio - "Camera One" "Switch Audio" "All cameras." There is no simple way to tell after the fact which choice was used, and no way to change the way they behave, which can lead to problems because the multiclips handle audio very differently in each case.I'm guessing that when these clips were made the choice was "Camera One" which is a great choice for double system sound but does not allow you, in any way, to add audio from any other sources. Your best bet might be to remake the multiclips and choose"switch audio" or "all cameras" as your audio option.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Andy NeilRe: Editing a Multiclip
by on Apr 13, 2016 at 9:06:27 pm

Thanks Herb. The multiclips were definitely made using Camera 1 setting. Can you elaborate on how the three types are different and why you can add sources after the fact to Switch Audio and All Cameras but not Camera 1?

BTW, I remade all the multiclips with Camera 1 (not really knowing the difference), and was able to get the right number of tracks and audio sources. It only "freezes" the configuration after the first time I load the multiclip into the source monitor. After that point, I can't change anything.

Andy

https://plus.google.com/u/0/107277729326633563425/videos


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Herb SevushRe: Editing a Multiclip
by on Apr 13, 2016 at 9:49:11 pm

[Andy Neil] "Can you elaborate on how the three types are different and why you can add sources after the fact to Switch Audio and All Cameras but not Camera 1?"

This is actually a very complex question and I'm going to do a little testing tonite to make sure I give you a correct answer. Ppro has always had a very complex way of handling sound and this complexity gets geometrically worse when dealing with multiclips.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Herb SevushRe: Editing a Multiclip
by on Apr 14, 2016 at 2:47:51 am

[Andy Neil] " Can you elaborate on how the three types are different and why you can add sources after the fact to Switch Audio and All Cameras but not Camera 1?"

To help understand multicam audio in Ppro you first have to understand the different types of audio tracks in Premiere. There are mono tracks, which contain 1 source and can be panned right or left, there are stereo tracks, each of which contains a stereo pair, and there are "adaptive" tracks, premiere's own gift to mankind, which can contain any number of source tracks and has it's own individual patching system. Adobe has always had this fascination with complex tracks, in fact in it's first iteration if you imported a clip with video and 2 audio tracks it could only be imported as a stereo pair - to get 2 mono tracks you had to add filters and jump thru all sorts of hoops. While you can now import 2 tracks as dual mono, this tropism toward complex patching of individual tracks still remains. Now to multiclip audio.

1 Camera multiclips - uses mono tracks. The first audio source will default to a double system audio clip if that's included in the group or the audio from the first camera, if no double system audio is present. The audio from this clip is panned left and right and appropriate channels are selected for this source if there are more than 2 channels. All other audio tracks, that is the audio from all the other cameras, are muted. This works great if you have double system sound and don't need anything else, or if you are happy with the audio from the first camera only. If you try to un-mute the other cameras it screws up the multiclip and you will have all sorts of problems trying to work with it.

All Camera multiclips - uses mono tracks with all sources panned left and right. When editing with this selection everything is available at all times but your then stuck with dealing with multiple channels of audio in your editing timeline or else the need to constantly be targeting and un-targeting all of these channels as you need them. I haven't tried using double system audio with this setting so I don't know what the issues would be under those circumstances.

Switch Audio multiclips - uses a single adaptive track for each audio source and patches it so you can access all channels during editing. I use this setting most of the time. It allows you to access every audio channel of every video source but assumes you want to edit them all to one of two channels on your timeline. The main problem with this setting is that it will change the audio source whenever you change the video source if the audio channel is targeted at that time - this can be a PITA but it's easy enough to work around when you need to. Again I don't use double system sound with this choice so I'm not sure how it would behave - my guess is it would show black in the camera display but otherwise act like any other audio source in the multiclip matrix.

Ordinarily I tell anyone working with double system audio to use the 1 Camera setting and anyone using audio split out to multiple cameras to use the Switch Audio setting. Your need is a hybrid, and I'm guessing Switch Audio would work best for you.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Andy NeilRe: Editing a Multiclip
by on Apr 14, 2016 at 5:01:38 am

Wow, Herb, that was fascinating. Thank you so much for clearing some of that up (as clear as it can be anyway). I've always been annoyed with how Premiere handles audio, and this has certainly not made my opinion any kinder.

The last few days have been an interesting flight into the dark recesses of Premiere audio and Premiere multiclips. I'm sad to say it hasn't been much fun. The fact that they give you the opportunity to edit multiclips, but if you do, you can screw up your multiclip is an interesting feature.

I ended up rebuilding the multiclips as Camera 1 clips. It works fine if you open the multiclip in the timeline and make adjustments provided you do so before ever loading it into the source monitor. The second you double click the multiclip, you lose the ability to make changes without screwing it up. But as long as you don't, I was able to delete tracks and move tracks around until I had the sources I wanted.

When I'm done with this project, I'll try the Switch Audio version although I'm not really clear about the implementation. Is it like Avid where you can right click and change the audio source in the timeline?

I hope Adobe does some work on their multiclip implementation in the future. It seems like they got the bones of a good feature, but it's not well executed as of yet.

Andy

https://plus.google.com/u/0/107277729326633563425/videos


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Herb SevushRe: Editing a Multiclip
by on Apr 14, 2016 at 12:51:46 pm

[Andy Neil] " I'll try the Switch Audio version although I'm not really clear about the implementation. Is it like Avid where you can right click and change the audio source in the timeline?"

Switch Audio is basically an "Audio follows Video" feature. Whichever video angle is chosen, the audio from that camera is now the active audio source. Once edited into the timeline you can right click any clip and under the multicam heading you can change to any other audio source or if your video track is disabled you can change the audio under the playhead by using the "replace angle" keyboard shortcut. You cannot change channel origination this way - if the clip you are currently on was from Camera 1 Ch.1 you can change to Camera 2 but you cannot change to Ch.2 from any source this way. If I need to change channels I match back to the multicam and relay the clip with the desired Channel targeted.

The biggest problem with this setting is that it will always change the audio whenever you change the video if the audio channel has been targeted, i.e., if my multiclip audio is placed on track 1 in my sequence and the track 1 target is enabled then if I cut the video from camera 1 to camera 2 using the multiclip controls the underlying audio will switch to camera 2, even if the audio channel selector isn't on. The way to avoid that is to leave audio track 1 disabled or to lock track 1.

The other quick note I will add is that in the sequence panel menu, not the wrench icon but the dashes in the tab at the top of the sequence, there is a feature called "multicamera audio follows video." Under no circumstances should this be enabled - it will force cut marks and audio changes in your audio tracks no matter what is enabled or locked. It is the devils own option and is to be avoided like the plague.

As for the effect of opening a multiclip in the source window - that's news to me but might explain some weird behavior I have seen with the 1 Camera setting. Thanks for passing that on.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Andrew KimeryRe: Editing a Multiclip
by on Apr 14, 2016 at 4:19:10 pm

Thanks for the detailed explanation, Herb. Ever think about convincing Adobe to let you write the PPro manual? ;)

FWIW I deal with a lot of second system sound (usually 2 cameras plus 3-5 channels of second system sound) and I use the All Camera option. I can open up the multiclip in the timeline and tinker with the audio layout to my hearts content and all is fine. In the multiclip I'll rearrange the audio layout so the mics I want on on top (A1-Lav 1, A2-Lav 2, A3-Boom, etc.,) and then I'll mute the rest. Once the multclip is in the source monitor I'll only activate the tracks I want (in this case A1-A3) and PPro typically remembers that so I only have to do it once. The only annoying thing is PPro automatically adds audio and video tracks based on all the available A/V tracks coming from the source monitor even if most of those tracks aren't activated. So if I load a clip with 8 audio channels into the source monitor, but only have A1-A3 activated, PPro will automatically create 8 audio tracks in my timeline (assuming it has less than 8 to start with). even though I only have 3 activated.


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Herb SevushRe: Editing a Multiclip
by on Apr 14, 2016 at 4:29:04 pm

[Andrew Kimery] " Ever think about convincing Adobe to let you write the PPro manual?"

I've been trying to convince Adobe to have someone / anyone write a manual to no avail since I started using it and found out that Adobe thinks written manuals are so "yesterday."

[Andrew Kimery] "So if I load a clip with 8 audio channels into the source monitor, but only have A1-A3 activated, PPro will automatically create 8 audio tracks in my timeline (assuming it has less than 8 to start with). even though I only have 3 activated."

Which is why I don't use the All Cameras option. Most of the time (95%) I'm using a single mixed track and I don't want to clutter up my timeline with audio elements that I rarely use, which is why I use the Switch Audio option. In this option you can also move your audio tracks around without penalty at any point - the biggest issue for me is the inadvertent audio replacement that happens when switching video and forgetting to disable the audio track. I'm trying to get Adobe to work on this but apparently Virtual Reality is a bigger priority at this point - VR, this year's 3D.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Andy NeilRe: Editing a Multiclip
by on Apr 14, 2016 at 9:43:51 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "PPro will automatically create 8 audio tracks in my timeline (assuming it has less than 8 to start with). even though I only have 3 activated."

I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing, but I've noticed that when Premiere loads a source with more tracks than the sequence, there'll be a little plus sign on the last visible track. you have to click on that to expose all the source tracks and from there you can deselect to prevent Premiere from making new tracks in your sequence.

Andy

https://plus.google.com/u/0/107277729326633563425/videos


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Andrew KimeryRe: Editing a Multiclip
by on Apr 15, 2016 at 2:16:14 am

[Herb Sevush] " Most of the time (95%) I'm using a single mixed track and I don't want to clutter up my timeline with audio elements that I rarely use, "

I adjust the targeting so nothing is populating my timeline, but it's making extra empty tracks.


[Andy Neil] "I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing, but I've noticed that when Premiere loads a source with more tracks than the sequence, there'll be a little plus sign on the last visible track. you have to click on that to expose all the source tracks and from there you can deselect to prevent Premiere from making new tracks in your sequence.
"


On my machine when I hit the plus sign to expose all the source tracks it creates an equal amount of empty tracks on my timeline. Maybe there is preference you have set that I don't?


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