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8 hour rendierng, not even a third done, are you kidding me?

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Kell Smith8 hour rendierng, not even a third done, are you kidding me?
by on Nov 13, 2015 at 1:07:08 pm

So... CS6, MPB Retina, 2.7 gig I7, 16g 1600 mhz DDr3. @ hour timeline 1920x1080, mts files.

Put a shadow/highlight filter on it, and an unsharp mask. Set if to render at maximum depth because I plan to downsize it to 720 and run it through a de-noiser.
Put it on the grill to cook at 12:30 am. Woke up this morning at 7:30, heard it processing , and it is not even a third done. Estimated time remaining: 20 hours.

Seriously? Is this normal or is something wrong? I don't usually have to render out like this so I haven't done this before.

How can anyone possibly get a project done with times such as this? We're not even talking about exporting yet. That's insane.

(It just occurred to me that I do have a gain boost on the audio tracks, meant for it to render only the video but perhaps that's slowing it down).

I'll have to do some research on ways to reduce render time. But is this normal for the above-mentioned system? I'm afraid to even ask how long a similar effect would take in after effects.

Going out of town tomorrow and just want to get these clips out. Still need to render the rest of them out, downsize them to 720, run them through a denoise filter, export and burn. But don't have a straight week to sit and watch them cook. What is the best thing to do?



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Tero AhlforsRe: 8 hour rendierng, not even a third done, are you kidding me?
by on Nov 13, 2015 at 1:34:19 pm
Last Edited By Tero Ahlfors on Nov 13, 2015 at 1:37:49 pm

[Kell Smith] "mts files. "

AVCHD is a shitty piece of crap codec and pretty much the only one I would transcode for something that works better. AVCHD combined with effects is a nightmare even on faster computers.

[Kell Smith] "maximum depth"

Do you mean max depth or max quality? Maximum quality should be only used when you're doing scaling and I wouldn't use that when rendering the timeline. What is your preview file format? Also is there a reason you're rendering the timeline?


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Kell SmithRe: 8 hour rendierng, not even a third done, are you kidding me?
by on Nov 13, 2015 at 2:05:12 pm
Last Edited By Kell Smith on Nov 13, 2015 at 2:18:17 pm

The sequence settings are set for max bit depth, max render quality. Then a dialog box came up which recommended optimizing render for "memory" with those settings, so I changed that in the preferences.
The preview format is whatever Premiere does automatically? I think it's mpeg.
As to rendering the timeline, I"m fixing some footage shot in low light conditions with some slight focus issues as well and wanted to add shadow/highlight to boost it a bit, and an unsharp mask while at full scale so as not to lose anything else, then was planning to put it into a 720p timeline and run a neat noise removal filter on it. That's why I was working at full, for fear of making matters worse.
Welcome any suggestions.
The footage is 2 hours of MTS files, lockdown second camera so only a couple of long clips. The audio gain was boosted though in the timeline if that matters.
This is very frustrating, it's overdue and for the life of me I can't seem to get this project out of my system for review. EVERYTHING I do - export, render, even upload to YT for review (which ruined my file even more) takes absolutely forever. The only think I can do is sit here day after day and watch this stupid thing cook. I'm about to do a "quick-render" - i.e. take a hammer to it.

My fault for the footage problems, but t's put me four days behind on another project as well. Is there a better way to approach this outputting process? It shouldn't be this much of an issue to put a filter on it and export. What am I doing wrong?


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Tero AhlforsRe: 8 hour rendierng, not even a third done, are you kidding me?
by on Nov 13, 2015 at 2:18:20 pm

Turn off max bit depth and max render quality. Max render quality will take ages and if you're not scaling you're just adding useless render time. Also your footage probably doesn't require the max bit depth toggle. Instead of wasting time rendering the timeline I would render out a full HD master file (prores or DNxHD, XDCAMHD422 might be enough as well), bring that in and denoise that.


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Kell SmithRe: 8 hour rendierng, not even a third done, are you kidding me?
by on Nov 13, 2015 at 2:27:03 pm

Okay. I'll try that. SO render it, then export out to dnxhd?
Would there be an advantage to just outputting the sequence to dnxhd without effects, then bringing it in and applying the effects?
I need to output this to individual clips rather than the whole timeline so that will be one more step as well. Maybe I'll just output to clips now - put each clip in a nested timeline, render it, get it outputting to dnxhd in the queue? Thinking out loud..

Never worked in dnxhd. What's the best workflow all around for this? Soooo frustrating. Thank you


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Tero AhlforsRe: 8 hour rendierng, not even a third done, are you kidding me?
by on Nov 13, 2015 at 4:13:40 pm

[Kell Smith] "Okay. I'll try that. SO render it, then export out to dnxhd? "

You don't need to render your timeline to export the timeline. You only need to render your timeline if you need to play it back in realtime if you're not getting good enough performance. You could also try dropping the playback quality.


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Joe Barta IVRe: 8 hour rendierng, not even a third done, are you kidding me?
by on Nov 13, 2015 at 2:33:25 pm

Turn off the Maximum Bit Depth. The only time you need that is if you are working with high-end animation and/or exporting the timeline with transparency/alpha channels.

My suggestion; change your Sequence Settings to Preview File Format QuickTime codec ProRes 422, turn off Max Bit Depth, turn off Max Render Quality. Render timeline. Export timeline as QuickTime ProRes 422, select Use Previews. Then use Media Encoder (turning on Use Maximum Render Quality) to do any downscaling and conversion to other formats.

Joe

Living the SuiteLife!
Stuff for editors http://www.cafepress.com/suitelife

http://www.facebook.com/pages/SuiteLife/1524456414462851?ref=hl


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Kell SmithRe: 8 hour rendierng, not even a third done, are you kidding me?
by on Nov 13, 2015 at 3:03:11 pm
Last Edited By Kell Smith on Nov 13, 2015 at 3:18:03 pm

Previews are set to l-frame only mpeg and are grayed out. --?
The reason I was downsizing to 720 before applying the denoiser is that I have so many bills this month I have to wait to buy the plugin, so I was going to use the demo which does 720. I am planning to buy the full plugin (it's amazing) but it will be a few weeks. So it's a workaround.

I cannot seem to change the preview format settings anywhere. Looked in preferences, media settings, sequence settings, and tried changing them in a new sequence. Not letting me do it. What setting am I missing?








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Joe Barta IVRe: 8 hour rendierng, not even a third done, are you kidding me?
by on Nov 13, 2015 at 3:32:58 pm

"Previews are set to l-frame only mpeg and are grayed out. --?"

Create a New Sequence with the Preview setting you want and Copy/Paste your old timeline into the new.

Joe

Living the SuiteLife!
Stuff for editors http://www.cafepress.com/suitelife

http://www.facebook.com/pages/SuiteLife/1524456414462851?ref=hl


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Kell SmithRe: 8 hour rendierng, not even a third done, are you kidding me?
by on Nov 13, 2015 at 3:38:39 pm

It won't let me change it in a new sequence either, in the bin or in the project panel. I did try that though. Not sure what to do or why it's grayed out at every point. I wonder if that setting is project-specific?


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Jeff PuleraRe: 8 hour rendierng, not even a third done, are you kidding me?
by on Nov 13, 2015 at 2:29:02 pm

I had to use Unsharp Mask on some long videos last year to fix footage that was slightly out of focus, and yes it does take a day to render - and I was on a workstation PC, not a laptop! If you understand how Unsharp Mask actually works, then you will realize and appreciate why it takes so long. Google it. An incredible amount of calculations must take place for every single HD frame.

As Tero asked, why the render preview? When I used Unsharp Mask and realized how slow it would be, what I did was apply ONLY the Unsharp Mask to my raw footage, and exported that raw, sharpened footage to a "lossless" codec. That was my new "original" footage to work the edit with, all sharpened up. Then I was back to normal render times for whatever else I needed to do to the footage, rather than trying to apply Unsharp at the same time as all other effects.

You mention Denoising, and if you mean for video, that can take just as long as Unsharp Mask. Again, as above, if all my footage is noisy, I will just Denoise first thing, exporting to a lossless codec, then begin editing with that clean footage from the start. If I apply a Denoiser plugin effect in the Premiere timeline, everything grinds to a halt and I just can't work with that applied. So I just bite the bullet and do the overnight render (export) first, then work with the new cleaned clips that behave normally.

Back to rendering the timeline - what is the Preview Codec set to? You are adding a generation of quality loss by rendering timeline previews, and these will have to be converted again when you export. Hopefully the preview codec is decent, such as ProRes. And of course you must check "Use Previews" when exporting, or you are rendering it all from scratch again anyway. I don't export using Previews, for best quality export using raw footage.

I normally do not use Max Depth, as I understand that is for 10-bit footage, or effects with high bit depth. I don't use it for my 8-bit sources. And as Tero said, do not use Max Render Quality unless the output is being scaled, like 1080 to 720 or HD to SD, only increases render times. Those checkboxes increase render times.

You mentioned wanting to add the Denoiser after you convert to 720. That doesn't make sense to me, because you've already added other effects, and rendered them out, and scaled the video, so the noise is just getting worse with each re-compression cycle. Noise doesn't compress well due to it's randomness. I would denoise earlier in the game. Like before doing any editing/effects.

You're really at a disadvantage if the footage requires both the Unsharp Mask and Denoiser. Not sure which I'd even attack first.

Good luck with all this, and be prepared for some long waits.

Thanks

Jeff Pulera
Safe Harbor Computers


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Duke SwedenRe: 8 hour rendierng, not even a third done, are you kidding me?
by on Nov 13, 2015 at 3:22:35 pm

Just to add another angle to this, not that it relates to your situation, but the other day I was rendering a 22 minute video. Some light color grading, a touch of sharpening. That's it. I'd done a 20 minute video before and it took about 2-3 hours. I started this one at 11 p.m. and thought for sure when I got up the next morning it would be long done, but, no, it had been going for 9 hours and was still only 47% done. I had to wait another 5 hours for it to finish and when it was, I got an error message saying encoding failed!!!

So I started it again (both times in Media Encoder), this time it said estimated completion time 3 hours 45 minutes, and that was just about how long it took. I didn't make any changes, I just tried to encode it again. Sometimes, these computers, you know what I'm sayin'?


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Kell SmithRe: 8 hour rendierng, not even a third done, are you kidding me?
by on Nov 13, 2015 at 3:36:39 pm

Ahh! the dreaded error message. Grrr.
Thanks you guys for sharing your experiences with long encodes. You know how frustrating that is for sure.

it appears that I do not have pro res on my system. What would be the best settings for, say, a dnxhd master? for 1080p?


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David BaudRe: 8 hour rendierng, not even a third done, are you kidding me?
by on Nov 13, 2015 at 3:29:10 pm

I would also refine your workflow: you should choose a lossless intermediate codec for all your high processing work on your footage. It is much less power intensive to work on a frame basis (intra-frame codec) than to work with Long GOP footage (inter-frame codec) Working directly with MPEG footage will impact how fast your cpu is capable of processing your frames.

To find your best workflow, run a small test on 30" or 1 min. timeline, from start to finish, and keep track of the time it takes for your computer to do it.

If you are on a mac, I would choose Apple ProRes codec as your intermediary codec.

Your workflow might look that way:

Original footage -> apply FX -> render to ProRes -> ProRes to your master format
or
Original footage -> transcode to ProRes -> apply FX -> render to ProRes -> ProRes to your master format

Other than your workflow, they are many other parameters that might slow down your rendering. You will need to give us a more detail description of your system setup to figure it out. For example is your footage on the same drive than your output? if it is the case you may want to consider having your footage on a fast internal hard drive and output to a RAID array drives...

HTH,

David Baud
Post & VFX
KOSMOS PRODUCTIONS
Denver - Paris
http://www.kosmos-productions.com



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Kell SmithRe: 8 hour rendierng, not even a third done, are you kidding me?
by on Nov 13, 2015 at 3:55:55 pm

Thank you,
I've got such a headache at this point! Ha The learning curve... gotta love it.
This is valuable though because it's exposing some technical areas I was just not aware of as I don't usually deal too much with effects, rendering, don't venture out of my usual codecs, etc.
I'm under the gun and have to leave to go out of town in the morning to shoot another job. Which I am not completely prepared for because of time spent trying to fix this nightmare project. For four days. Ugh.
Right now I went back to an earlier pre-filters sequence, and am exporting that as a master to dnxhd. It appears I do not have pro res on my system - only aic.

The project file is on my hd, and the source files and outputs are on an external Western Digital My Passport 1tb drive with 700 gig left on it.

I'm going to have to stop, let this thing export, and prepare for tomorrow. have to get equipment packed, go over the planning, charge batteries, etc. So when the dust settles I am going to study this thread very closely and really make some changes to my workflow. I haven't been working in awhile, and more work is coming in now so it's good that this is bringing these issues to light.

I am infinitely grateful for everyone's experience and guidance on this.


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Kell SmithRe: 8 hour rendierng, not even a third done, are you kidding me?
by on Nov 14, 2015 at 1:50:24 am
Last Edited By Kell Smith on Nov 14, 2015 at 2:31:28 am

I exported a dnxhd master with mono tracks but it bunched them all into track one. ( There are 6). Anyway to export a dnxhd master and retain the mono tracks so we can change the mix up later?
And 214 gig for about a two hour file... is that normal for this codec? Wow that's large. I did give it 100% quality in the export.
I need to get that re-exporting tonight, overnight, so appreciate any help on how to export with the proper audio tracks. Thank you

EDIT - think I found the answer - here's the link http://strypesinpost.com/2012/11/exporting-multichannel-quicktimes-in-premi...


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Tero AhlforsRe: 8 hour rendierng, not even a third done, are you kidding me?
by on Nov 14, 2015 at 10:22:32 am

[Kell Smith] "And 214 gig for about a two hour file... is that normal for this codec?"

Yes. It depends on the flavor of DNxHD. DNxHD 185, for example, is around 185 Mbit/s.


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Kell SmithI am still stuck in H*ll, don't know what to do
by on Nov 17, 2015 at 12:46:41 am
Last Edited By Kell Smith on Nov 17, 2015 at 12:49:31 am

If anyone is still out there in this thread, I really need some help to know what to do now. I cannot seem to fix these clips (low light issues, earlier thread https://forums.creativecow.net/thread/3/971640 ). I've been trying to fix them with a denoiser (it's over two hours of footage) to no avail. Have nearly filled up a terrabyte drive just exporting useless stuff. Everything I export takes like 6-9 hours and then is either huge file size or just not usable. I exported test clips and uploaded them to youtube and YT made it worse and the files were unreviewable. So I went to export out, put the clips on a DVD, but can't seem to even get a usable clip. When I add the shadow/highlight filter it lightens it up but the video noise is unbearable. I go to add a denoiser (no I don't know after effects beyond being able to naviagate around) the file exports, for just a tiny little test - a minute or so - 18 gig. And the render file was in slow motion. ????
No matter what I do, I cannot even get a usable review clip and they are HUGE and will lose information once downsized for web.
I don't know what to and am just caught in an anxiety loop about it. Everything takes an entire night just to render or export. I cannot drive it over to the client and show it to him on my laptop because I am out of town. He is expecting a dvd in the mail with the clips on it (yesterday) and yet I cannot even get anything usable to send him

Last night I set it to render with a denoiser in AE. It said the render time was 20 hours. I woke up this morning and the program had crashed.

Not comfortable posting any clips on here without the band's permission. But if someone that is really good at miracles would be willing to take a look at some clips and tell me what to do I would really be grateful because I am at a loss and have been basically sitting here for six straight days, unable to export what should be a simple thing: a two camera shoot for a band gig with some simple web clips. An eighth grader with an iphone could have done a better job. I am so humiliated they thought they were hiring a professional and I was not equipped to handle the low light exposures, and apparently I don't know as much about exporting as I think i do. So I will probably return their money and suggest they go hire an eighth grader with an iphone. I don't know if I am cut out for this. i thought I was. But right now I don't think I could serve hamburgers properly much less do a two camera shoot. I was just getting ready to step out on a new business idea for video and all the confidence I had is gone now.

On the upside, my wedding shoot this week went well so that's a bright spot.


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David BaudRe: I am still stuck in H*ll, don't know what to do
by on Nov 17, 2015 at 1:05:44 am

It is very difficult to give you any kind of advice if you cannot show us your problem... we need to see an actual clip in order to form an opinion... if you can't then maybe your best way out is to hire someone who can help you to get the most out of it...

Good luck,

David Baud
Post & VFX
KOSMOS PRODUCTIONS
Denver - Paris
http://www.kosmos-productions.com



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Joe Barta IVRe: I am still stuck in H*ll, don't know what to do
by on Nov 17, 2015 at 2:27:08 pm

We are all still here. We feel your pain. We've all had projects go south. Learn from it and go on.

Low light, dark video is hard to recover. Basically, there is no information there to get back. Pushing up the blacks will always bring out the noise. You're not doing anything wrong, that's just the way video is. Noise reduction will help some, but again it can only do so much. Plus, noise reduction is a very processor intensive procedure, it will always take longer than regular color correction renders.

Hang in there.

Joe

Living the SuiteLife!
Stuff for editors http://www.cafepress.com/suitelife

http://www.facebook.com/pages/SuiteLife/1524456414462851?ref=hl


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Kell SmithRe: I am still stuck in H*ll, don't know what to do
by on Nov 18, 2015 at 1:06:56 am

David, I"d be happy to upload you a clip if you are open to that.
I've corrected it somewhat and it looked better when rendered out but it still pretty dark.
The file outputted was a full hd - 27 gig - I figured it would be quicker to upload it to google drive than to export a smaller one and upload that.
Not so much. Put it on at 11 this morning and it is still only 80% uploaded and it's 8 pm.
This has been what it's been... basically sit and wait, all day, then another day, and so on, for anything to get rendered, exported or uploaded. it's so frustrating to just sit there for hours on end watching things export when you are late and cant'get your clip to your client.
It's a two hour HD clip, and I kept it large to retain best quality. But this is ridiculous. I could probably get decent quality wiht a much smaller clip.
9 hours to upload to google drive? (first time using it). That's really long.


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Kell SmithRe: I am still stuck in H*ll, don't know what to do
by on Nov 18, 2015 at 1:20:00 am
Last Edited By Kell Smith on Nov 18, 2015 at 1:46:43 am

Thanks guys. And David, in response to your post, yeah, that does make it more difficult. I"d be happy to upload you a clip.

I've corrected it somewhat and it looked better when rendered out but it still pretty dark.
The file outputted was a full hd - 27 gig - I figured it would be quicker to upload it to google drive than to export a smaller one and upload that. Not so much. Put it on at 11 this morning and it is still only 80% uploaded and it's 8 pm.
This has been what it's been... basically sit and wait, all day, then another day, and so on, for anything to get rendered, exported or uploaded. it's so frustrating to just sit there for hours on end watching things export.
I'm going to have to find a solution to these long render/encode etc times or get more realistic about what they will be so as not to overpromise.

I did offer to return their money, told them of the technical issues, offered to edit what I have, took responsibility and that's all you can really do. Meanwhile they are reviewing it.. Or rather, will be if it ever uploads. Is google drive always this ridiculously slow?

9 hours to upload to google drive. 20 hours to render to after effects. 8 hours to output the file. Some kid with an iphone could have had those clips up in 20 minutes.
Nuts.


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David BaudRe: I am still stuck in H*ll, don't know what to do
by on Nov 18, 2015 at 2:24:41 am

Yes I can look at your clip when it is ready, but it would be better if you upload the original file from your camera... it would be easier for me to tell you what can be done or not... if you send me a clip already processed, it would be hard for me to dissociate what you have done to it from what is the original clip.

David Baud
Post & VFX
KOSMOS PRODUCTIONS
Denver - Paris
http://www.kosmos-productions.com



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Kell SmithWorkflow questions
by on Dec 1, 2015 at 12:45:17 am
Last Edited By Kell Smith on Dec 1, 2015 at 1:19:13 am

Thank you David,
I did not see your post - I spun the discussion off into another thread. BUt it was such a hectic week it was easy to miss things.Just wanted to pop back in after all this time - first chance - and thank you guys for your suggestions. I was not really able to save the footage but it was improved somewhat - I was able to deliver something but not something I was happy with.
However, your suggestions were very helpful in starting down the path to a different workflow. I did export the selects out to Dnxhd - and found a method for installing prores on this system without fcp but have not done that yet. You were right, it was much easier to edit and apply effects with the transcoded file even though it was monstrously huge.

Here is a question for you guys. Maybe it should go in a new thread. But for now...as mentioned earlier in the thread - as far as workflow with AVCHD and Premiere, considering several camera cards, and factoring in the transcoded files to edit with, what is your process?

1) Bring in AVCHD -> import all-> cut out the junk (thereby avoiding huge transcoded file sizes) and pull out selects -> export the timeline to transcoded file -> re-import? (Which seems like a lot of extra work as you have to cut the clips up twice).

2) DO your edit on mts -> output files to transcoded format -> import back in for effects? (that would be limited as far as flexibility for creative editing)

3)Some other workflow involving logging in Prelude or using subclips? (Considering that cs6 has no batch export of subclips.

Thx


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Chris ZeccoRe: Workflow questions
by on Dec 1, 2015 at 9:34:11 pm

Hey Kell,

I usually drop everything into Media Encoder and export DNxHD 185 and DNxHD 36. I work off of the 36, and apply filters and everything with that, then when I lock picture, I re-link to the DNxHD 185. This keeps all of the filters and effects you apply to the low res footage, and you don't end up having to work with super huge files, speeding up your edit time. Takes up a bit more space on your hard drive to begin with, but it's worth it in the long run.

Chris

2012 Mac Pro
2x 2.4GHz Intel Xeon
24GB RAM
1GB ATI Radeon 5770

2011 Macbook Pro
2.4GHz i7
8GB RAM


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Ivan MylesRe: Workflow questions
by on Dec 2, 2015 at 1:08:00 am

[Chris Zecco] "I usually drop everything into Media Encoder and export DNxHD 185 and DNxHD 36."

DNxHD/MXF is a good choice, but I have had issues with DNxHD/mov (clipping and remapping bright colors). AVC-Intra is another option for standard HD resolutions.


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Ivan MylesRe: Workflow questions
by on Dec 2, 2015 at 1:31:22 am

[Kell Smith] "... as far as workflow with AVCHD and Premiere, considering several camera cards, and factoring in the transcoded files to edit with, what is your process?"

I recommend transcoding to an intermediate format as the first step. Whether you convert all the camera footage or a smaller collection of clips will depend on other factors, such as the availability of storage space and the total amount of footage, for example. Then edit and apply effects to the intermediate file(s).


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David BaudRe: Workflow questions
by on Dec 3, 2015 at 5:47:25 pm

[Kell Smith] "2) DO your edit on mts -> output files to transcoded format -> import back in for effects? (that would be limited as far as flexibility for creative editing)
"


Another option, if you want to avoid having to transcode all your footage, would be to use the Project Manager function in PrP. The idea is that you cut your show in its original camera file format (assuming that your system can handle it) and when you are done with your editing, PrP transcodes automatically just your sequence to a different codec, before you apply your effects. In the Project Manager window, you can select how much handle you want to keep for each clip used in your sequence, which will be handy in the case you still want to do some tweaking after transcoding.

Note: the Project Manager function has been around for a while in PrP, but with various bugs and missing features over different versions. You may want to run a full test before committing to it and make sure it runs the way expected on your system.

David Baud
Post & VFX
KOSMOS PRODUCTIONS
Denver - Paris
http://www.kosmos-productions.com



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