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does your NLE match your budget?

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Brian Cooneydoes your NLE match your budget?
by on Jul 11, 2015 at 1:02:10 am

I've come to the conclusion over the last few months with the apple adobe saga and all that is in the mix, that we probably can't blame the manufacturers if we are still trying to keep up with the latest and squeeze by with 2000 era configurations. Adobe, Avid and Davinci are reaching to where the action is. And though we may not all be editing in 4K. We are going to find more and more that the start-up systems on an apple or low level PC platform just aren't going to handle it anymore. They did for awhile and everyone was in the game. But now the void between professional editor and consumer are growing large. Yes we have FCPX and the consumer grade that seems to perform well on the highest end configurations apple has to offer. But it's all still consumer friendly and consumer based. The span between pro and novice is growing bigger by the moment. and this span is not reliant on knowledge or proficiency, but equipment.

I've been editing some large name clients for the last 7 years, and I'm finally realizing that what I've done for Coke, Kia, Verizon, L'Oreal, I can no longer do wit the equipment I have. I am forced to make a business decision and take the next big step. I was lucky and managed to get by, but I think those days are over. It's either big performance with big results... or small performance with torment, suffering and frustration.

I actually think this is a good thing. Because 2-3 years ago we thought apple changed things, pulling the plug on FCP7 and going the consumer route... but now we realize, the gap is now great...and not smaller... professionals need protools and they will have to pay the cost to get there and that does demonstrate the difference and create a void between pro and novice.

Brian Cooney

Telly Award Winning Editor and Motion Gfx Artist with MotionFoundry, Inc., Nashville, TN. Former Head of Post Production, Coca-Cola Studios Atlanta, GA.


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Bret WilliamsRe: does your NLE match your budget?
by on Jul 11, 2015 at 3:45:24 am

What is it that you can't do with the equipment you have? Because I find the world to be going in the opposite direction where a talented artist can do more amazing things with very little.


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Brian CooneyRe: does your NLE match your budget?
by on Jul 11, 2015 at 4:16:43 am

i think we will all have to accept that at some point in the near future... the tools we have used will no longer be adequate for the professional on the platforms we have operated in.

Telly Award Winning Editor and Motion Gfx Artist with MotionFoundry, Inc., Nashville, TN. Former Head of Post Production, Coca-Cola Studios Atlanta, GA.


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Bret WilliamsRe: does your NLE match your budget?
by on Jul 11, 2015 at 4:21:45 am

So.... What is it that you can't do with the equipment you have? Because I find the world to be going in the opposite direction where a talented artist can do more amazing things with very little.


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Brian CooneyRe: does your NLE match your budget?
by on Jul 11, 2015 at 4:56:42 am

Ive been doing this for 10 years and though the software seems to be going towards the consumer side, the truth is 4K, 5K and even some 1080p formats struggle on low end systems. I don't say this to be pompous. I myself am going to have to dish out the cash.. but I think the landscape is changing... youtube videos and such will be fine with the lower end systems and lower end editing, but the professional realm seems to be widening form that of the novice... I actually thought for awhile that nay kid could pick up a low end mac and edit... but I think they can, and with creative results....but the professional level stuff is pulling away... drastically... and I think that is a good thing all in all. and for us hardcores...that seems like a good thing. people need to work their way up.. it's only natural.. and more $$$ will be in order.

Telly Award Winning Editor and Motion Gfx Artist with MotionFoundry, Inc., Nashville, TN. Former Head of Post Production, Coca-Cola Studios Atlanta, GA.


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Bret WilliamsRe: does your NLE match your budget?
by on Jul 11, 2015 at 5:44:43 am

You've got the cred so I'm trying to give you the benefit. But you just kind keep saying the same thing without really giving any specifics. What kind of stuff are you doing with these clients that your system isn't up to snuff for? What kind of system is that? You trying to get by on a i5 or something? You doing ILM effects?

Your original post seems to allege 3 things.

1. The computing power you currently have been using isn't up to snuff for now or the near future for your clientele.

2. The difference between a consumer and a professional editor is hardware, not proficiency.

3. FCP X is a consumer grade product and all the others are reaching for the stars.


So, 1.- if you could give an example of what it is you're doing that made you come to this conclusion it would help your point. certainly 4k is being edited and manipulated pretty painlessly on even some lowers end systems and technology seems to be keeping up just fine.

2. Really? Because if that's true, the cost of hardware and software have never been more economically obtainable to the consumer than it is today. We're doomed! But I don't think we are. Skill and experience is the bigger differentiator. But the economics have changed because the cost of horsepower has dropped to such low levels. Let's face it. This is a skilled profession not unlike any other artist but it is also technical like an electrician or a plumber and can be learned. Years ago the tools weren't even attainable to the consumer to learn. Now they are. So we adapt. There are many ways for a pro to adapt. Take advantage of our skills and experience to do more with less and be competitive or we could try to outspend the consumer and have the most amazing hardware to lure in high spending clients with extremely high end hardware needs. The latter sounds riskier and potentially shuts out a huge portion of the market. And if there isn't a focus on technique and skill....

3. Everyone has their opinion of course. But consumer grade is pretty harsh for a piece of software that is ahead of Adobe in many areas, 4k workflow arguably one of them, and behind in others but being used for motion pictures, documentaries, and just about anything. But it sounds like you haven't used it in a few years. Anyway, it didn't seem like software was your focus. But that's what I wanted to figure out. What was the focus? We're all going to need more computing power soon? Ok. That's not exactly a stretch. What is this big decision you're going to have to make?


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David Roth WeissRe: does your NLE match your budget?
by on Jul 11, 2015 at 6:00:41 am

Bret,

I don't think Brian is saying that X is not professional software, he's suggesting that, because it's not cross platform, that it's limited by the Mac hardware on which it must run.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions


David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Brian CooneyRe: does your NLE match your budget?
by on Jul 13, 2015 at 1:14:26 am

Bret, I'm doing most 1080p... some 4K red which I down convert to prores 1080p. But my system struggles now with just about every project over 3 minutes.. and if it's heavy fx based it can struggle none the less. Just finding it more and more and I just think it's time for PC. - I'll speak to myself. Even worked on 12-core trashcans and still found PPro struggled.

Telly Award Winning Editor and Motion Gfx Artist with MotionFoundry, Inc., Nashville, TN. Former Head of Post Production, Coca-Cola Studios Atlanta, GA.


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David Roth WeissRe: does your NLE match your budget?
by on Jul 11, 2015 at 5:16:26 am

I think you're both correct, however, having been on both the creative side and the sales side, I have found the following two questions really cover most bases for ALL users:

1) How good is good enough?

2) Do you have more time than money, or more money than time?

For example, one of my friends here is quite happy to do his work in Premiere while viewing at 1/4 resolution, and he's not very concerned about render times. He typically does not work under client supervision, and so he's happy to save money by not chasing hardware solutions that would give him better realtime performance and faster render times. He has more time than money, and he has decided his older Mac is good enough.

Another friend has very demanding clients who sit in on every session, paying big bucks, and they need to see everything at 100% rez, and they hate to wait for renders - so he requires a very beefy workstation capable of realtime performance with virtually any codec, including 5K Red RAW. To him, spending money on the right solution was essential, as he does not have the luxury of time - a powerful dual Xeon Windows workstation with a beefy 8-drive RAID and two powerful Titan GPUs was right for him, as no Mac on the planet can match that kind of performance.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions


David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Brian CooneyRe: does your NLE match your budget?
by on Jul 11, 2015 at 5:47:44 am
Last Edited By Brian Cooney on Jul 11, 2015 at 5:49:11 am

I totally agree and defer to your expertise. . but maybe it's just that the issues I have been having with Adobe and Mac feel like my 2013 iMac is not up to par.. I hope I'm wrong. but since CS6 I have not been happy with performance. AND I GUESS AT THIS POINT I'M ATTRIBUTING IT TO SYSTEM AND NOT TO SOFTWARE. sorry for the caps lock :-)

Telly Award Winning Editor and Motion Gfx Artist with MotionFoundry, Inc., Nashville, TN. Former Head of Post Production, Coca-Cola Studios Atlanta, GA.


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Oliver PetersRe: does your NLE match your budget?
by on Jul 12, 2015 at 10:00:38 pm

I'm not sure I completely understand the complaint, because I'm not sure what you are expecting. In your case (and I absolutely mean no offense in saying this), your 2013 iMac is a consumer device. However, it can certainly performance really well in a professional environment. But all of the software out there is pushing to work more and more with native camera media and that's really counter-productive when top performance is the issue.

The second part of the picture is that performance with modern NLEs is not based on a single component, like the workstation, but rather the entire pipeline, like the sort of connected storage you are using. From those points, there is plenty of off-the-shelf hardware that is more than up to the task, but that doesn't mean inexpensive. For example, all of Quantel's gear now is built around off-the-shelf components, but top tier stuff, like maxed out NVIDIA cards. So it really depends on what you are trying to do and whether you are just concerned with editing or also other tasks, like 3D animation and high-resolution compositing.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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walter biscardiRe: does your NLE match your budget?
by on Jul 13, 2015 at 1:01:09 am

[Brian Cooney] "Yes we have FCPX and the consumer grade that seems to perform well on the highest end configurations apple has to offer. But it's all still consumer friendly and consumer based. The span between pro and novice is growing bigger by the moment. and this span is not reliant on knowledge or proficiency, but equipment. "

Well except that FCPX is expanding it's foothold in the broadcast world and is now a part of some major multi-user workflows. It's not a consumer tool. It was a piece of crap three or four years ago when it came out, but the improvements and ecosystem built up around that tool puts it square into the professional market today. It is tied to the Apple ecosystem so you have to have a Mac to run it, but don't call it consumer by any means. Might as well call Adobe consumer if you want to call X consumer.

As for the machines, I'll be replacing all my Macs with PCs very shortly. The iMacs from three years ago can barely keep up with PPro 2014 / 2015 and I'm not about to purchase a trash can Mac Pro. That's one of the reasons why I stick with PPro for our work, the flexibility to use just about any workstation. I'm not locked to the Mac ecosystem.

The software, Apple, Avid, Adobe, Davinci and more are making major leaps and bounds. If you run any of this on older machines, you're going to get subpar performance. Doesn't matter the brand of software.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Craft and Career Advice & Training from real Working Creative Professionals

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Brian CooneyRe: does your NLE match your budget?
by on Jul 13, 2015 at 1:09:18 am

Thanks Walter. And yes I totally agree. We had 8 trashcans at Coke ( i met you at a shooters event you held there) and the MacPros were and are running like crap with PPro. I used to own decked out G5s at the time.. they were sweet.. the last couple years I've found iMac suitable for personal work.. and think for awhile there were running great. But I am too in the market for a PC now. Oliver, I wasn't trying to trash FCPX but more trying to make the point that the Mac platform just seems to be lacking for what I think most of us want to do. I can't speak to FCPX because when I transitioned from FCP7 I moved right over to CS6.

Telly Award Winning Editor and Motion Gfx Artist with MotionFoundry, Inc., Nashville, TN. Former Head of Post Production, Coca-Cola Studios Atlanta, GA.


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Oliver PetersRe: does your NLE match your budget?
by on Jul 13, 2015 at 10:41:21 pm

[Brian Cooney] "Oliver, I wasn't trying to trash FCPX but more trying to make the point that the Mac platform just seems to be lacking for what I think most of us want to do. I can't speak to FCPX because when I transitioned from FCP7 I moved right over to CS6."

I didn't make any comments about FCPX, but rather your iMac. Walter responded about FCP X. You noted that you were having issues with the Adobe apps and the Mac trash cans, too. That's odd, as I haven't seen that myself. In fact, at quite a few places, I'm running various versions of Adobe Premiere Pro CC (or 2014 or 2015) on older Mac Pros and the behavior is actually better than some of the Dell machines in the same facilities. Storage - especially if a SAN or underperforming drives are involved - is often the culprit.

As far as a move to Windows... If you like the all-in-one concept, I'd recommend the HP Z1 G2. I wrote up a review that might be worth checking out.

https://digitalfilms.wordpress.com/2014/09/19/hp-z1-g2-workstation/

I hope that helps.

Cheers,
Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Brian CooneyRe: does your NLE match your budget?
by on Jul 13, 2015 at 10:44:08 pm

yeah many of us... multitudes, are having issue with PPro on the trashcans..

Telly Award Winning Editor and Motion Gfx Artist with MotionFoundry, Inc., Nashville, TN. Former Head of Post Production, Coca-Cola Studios Atlanta, GA.


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Oliver PetersRe: does your NLE match your budget?
by on Jul 14, 2015 at 12:28:24 am

[Brian Cooney] "yeah many of us... multitudes, are having issue with PPro on the trashcans.."

The main problems I've heard of are with Resolve and the 6-core and 12-core machines. Issues related to the hex-core CPU configuration on that system.

Of course, there is a school of thought that suggests getting one of the last 12-core Mac Pro towers, load it up with RAM, install SSDs, and add a high-end NVIDIA card. I suspect Premiere Pro CC might perform quite well on that hardware. It's what Fincher's editing team used for "Gone Girl", along with a very hot-rodded SAN.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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David Roth WeissRe: does your NLE match your budget?
by on Jul 14, 2015 at 1:12:22 am

[Oliver Peters] "The main problems I've heard of are with Resolve and the 6-core and 12-core machines. Issues related to the hex-core CPU configuration on that system."

Wow!!! That's interesting stuff Oliver... It's way beyond my pay grade however... What badness does the hex-core CPU configuration mean for those using resolve???

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions


David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Oliver PetersRe: does your NLE match your budget?
by on Jul 14, 2015 at 1:21:34 am

[David Roth Weiss] "Wow!!! That's interesting stuff Oliver... It's way beyond my pay grade however... What badness does the hex-core CPU configuration mean for those using resolve???
"


Honestly I don't know either. I couldn't find anything right now, but in the past I've seen comments on various forums and the commonality was the 6-core and 12-core machines. In looking, I also found this issue related to the D700 GPUs.

http://appleinsider.com/articles/14/12/30/apples-latest-mac-pro-continues-t...

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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David Roth WeissRe: does your NLE match your budget?
by on Jul 14, 2015 at 1:25:37 am
Last Edited By David Roth Weiss on Jul 14, 2015 at 1:26:15 am

[Oliver Peters] "Honestly I don't know either. I couldn't find anything right now, but in the past I've seen comments on various forums and the commonality was the 6-core and 12-core machines."

Gotcha! Jeeze, whatever it does, it must really piss-off a few people. :)

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions


David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Oliver PetersRe: does your NLE match your budget?
by on Jul 14, 2015 at 1:30:00 am

[David Roth Weiss] "Gotcha! Jeeze, whatever it does, it must really piss-off a few people. :)"

That might be why Apple suggests the 8-core as the "sweet spot". ;-)

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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