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I really must be doing something wrong.

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Michael W. ToweI really must be doing something wrong.
by on May 1, 2015 at 3:15:21 pm

Hey Folks,

So I am at my wits end with Premier and I am not sure what else to do. Here's the situation...

I have a project that is a 26 minute broadcast show that was started on a PC version of PP. It was then handed off to me to finish, I am on a MAC. The project has gotten so slow on PP that I feel as if I am editing with handcuffs on. When I open the project file it links up to all the media rather quickly, but then I can't get playback for a good 10+ minutes. During this time if I hit play it takes a long time t start playback and II only have audio. After that 10 minutes I get a playback delay between 5 and 10 seconds.

I think there is a combination of factors causing these issues, one of them being that I am not a PP expert by ant stretch of the imagination. The other is that the show was shot in 4K on GH4's and A7's and the media was brought in natively, not transcoded. Additionally with 3 cameras on the interviews it's a lot of footage.

First my system specs...
New Mac Pro 3GHz 8Core E5
32G Ram
Dual Fire Pro D700's
G-Speed Studio Raid with 500 MB/s throughput

Things I have done to ry and seep up Premier
Setting program monitor resolution to 1/4
Set video previews to ProRes422 (After rendering the timeline this did speed things up a bit, but of course I have to render segments after every change.)

I truly can't believe that this is how PP is supposed to run as no one would be using it. So my question is what the heck could I possibly be doing wrong to cause this atrocious system performance?

Thanks in advance for any help you might have,

Mike

Michael W. Towe
President M2 Digital Post
http://www.m2digitalpost.com


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Andy EdwardsRe: I really must be doing something wrong.
by on May 1, 2015 at 4:23:56 pm

Hi Michael,

How much free space is on your Raid? Your Thunder bolt 2 raid should be able to handle the 4K if the drive is not to full.

Is the project still building peak files when you first open it? (blue bar lower right hand corner of the interface) This will cause lag in playback until the peak files are done building. Are you getting any warning or events when opening the project? (little red caution icon lower right hand corner)

Did you try and have the windows user export out a XML of the project and you start with a new "mac project" and import the XML. Were you both on the same version of Premiere or is yours newer?

Have you tried starting a new mac project and importing your old sequences into the project through the media browser?

We've cut a couple 4K shows at the network on a lower spec'd new mac pro, but it was hooked up to a SAN via 10gig fiber and it helps with the 4K footage.

Are you finishing in 4K or HD? Is there time to transcode all the footage to ProRes and re-import?

Andy Edwards


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Michael W. ToweRe: I really must be doing something wrong.
by on May 1, 2015 at 5:00:18 pm

Hi Andy,

Thanks so much for the response. Answers below...

- The raid is 18TB (After Raid 5 striping) and currently has 15TB available

- No peak files still building. The blue bar goes away about the same time as the media loading finishes. However after it finishes loading the media I am looking at Media Pending for a good 5 minutes. After I get picture it's another 5 minutes before I can playback picture and sound.

- No warnings or events when opening the project.

- Same version of PP on PC and Mac. I have not tried the XML trick, but at this point I have done so much work on the project that wouldn't be practical. Maybe as a test at a later date though

- I have not tried a new project and import of the old sequences. I'll give that a shot and see. However I am a lille confused on this. If I do this wouldn't I just have the sequences in the new project, and none of the bins and media? Or would I just need to reimport all the media into the new project as well?

- I'm finishing in 1080 so the sequence is just that. Unfortunately at this point I don't have time to transcode. I am powering through it because I have to deliver to color by tomorrow morning. However after that when I have some time to futz with it I will do a transcode and see if that helps. I suspect it will.

Thanks again for the response. I really want to get to the bottom of what has gone sideways with this project. This has to have been one of the most painful edits I have had to deal with in years and I would rather not go through it again. As much as I want to scream and yell at Premier I also understand that this may be a system or operator error.

Michael W. Towe
President M2 Digital Post
http://www.m2digitalpost.com


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Andy EdwardsRe: I really must be doing something wrong.
by on May 1, 2015 at 10:19:38 pm

[Michael W. Towe]

- No peak files still building. The blue bar goes away about the same time as the media loading finishes. However after it finishes loading the media I am looking at Media Pending for a good 5 minutes. After I get picture it's another 5 minutes before I can playback picture and sound.

If premiere is still building things in the background, especially with lots of 4K footage, this will happen. What codec was your footage?

- Same version of PP on PC and Mac. I have not tried the XML trick, but at this point I have done so much work on the project that wouldn't be practical. Maybe as a test at a later date though

Give it a shot, but with your deadline so close, you just want to get through the best you can to make delivery.

- I have not tried a new project and import of the old sequences. I'll give that a shot and see. However I am a lille confused on this. If I do this wouldn't I just have the sequences in the new project, and none of the bins and media? Or would I just need to reimport all the media into the new project as well?

When you import the sequence it brings in your media associated with the sequence into your Project folder. Use the media browser for things like this vs. the project import menu. Path to your old project in media browser, double click on it, should then get a menu to choose what sequences you want and them import to your project. The sequences should come in as read only so no changes can be made, but then you can select all, copy and paste into new sequence you've made. Once that happens your project bin should populate with all your media in the sequence.

Andy


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Dennis RadekeRe: I really must be doing something wrong.
by on May 4, 2015 at 12:06:13 pm

Make sure your media cache is on a local drive and be sure to clear/clean your media cache first. This will cause a rebuild possibly of the media cache initially, but in order to troubleshoot this isn't a bad thing. Also, trash your preferences as a good housekeeping measure.

How much RAM have you allocated to Adobe apps in the preferences? Some times folks put too MUCH RAM to Adobe. Rule of thumb is to have 50-75% to Adobe and when you have problems, generally, put LESS RAM to Adobe. So for 32GB, I would probably have 18-20GB allocated for Adobe. If you put it to 26-28GB, then that is definitely a part of your problem.

Are you using 3rd party I/O hardware? are you on the latest version of Premiere Pro? Spelling Premiere Pro the right way is tantamount to making it work correctly...Okay, maybe not - it's just my pet peeve! ;-)

Also, 4K H264 media is a true bear to decode - think about the computational complexity of a 4k frame where most of the frames are not full frames - hard for even a great new Apple Macpro to compute. You could test performance by using Consolidate and Transcode feature in project management to see if performance improves that way. I think it might.

Hopefully, some of the above helps you out.

Best,
Dennis - Adobe guy


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Michael W. ToweRe: I really must be doing something wrong.
by on May 4, 2015 at 4:09:01 pm

Hi Dennis,

Answers below...

[Dennis Radeke] "Make sure your media cache is on a local drive and be sure to clear/clean your media cache first. This will cause a rebuild possibly of the media cache initially, but in order to troubleshoot this isn't a bad thing. Also, trash your preferences as a good housekeeping measure.

Media cache is on the same raid as the media, I'll try clearing that out. I did trash the preferences once already, no help there.

How much RAM have you allocated to Adobe apps in the preferences? Some times folks put too MUCH RAM to Adobe. Rule of thumb is to have 50-75% to Adobe and when you have problems, generally, put LESS RAM to Adobe. So for 32GB, I would probably have 18-20GB allocated for Adobe. If you put it to 26-28GB, then that is definitely a part of your problem.

I'll give that a shot, I was set to 26GB for Premiere Pro.


Are you using 3rd party I/O hardware? are you on the latest version of Premiere Pro? Spelling Premiere Pro the right way is tantamount to making it work correctly...Okay, maybe not - it's just my pet peeve! ;-)

I do have an AJA T-Tap but that was the first thing I disconnected to make sure it was not adding to the issue. Disconnecting did not help.

Incorrect spelling of Premier Pro is simply a bug in Mikebrain Ver. 19.66. I have reported this bug to to both of the manufacturers at Mombrain LLC and Dadbrain, Inc. However they keep assuring me that the hardware is bug free and I should contact the elementary programers at Schoolbrain, Inc.

Also, 4K H264 media is a true bear to decode - think about the computational complexity of a 4k frame where most of the frames are not full frames - hard for even a great new Apple Macpro to compute. You could test performance by using Consolidate and Transcode feature in project management to see if performance improves that way. I think it might."


Personally I think this is the biggest contributor to the problem. I have delivered the show to color so now it's off of my plate. However there is another editor working on this project on a MacPro and he will be doing just that before he starts on the show he is cutting. I suspect he will have a much easier time at it.

Thanks for the reply,

Mike

Michael W. Towe
President M2 Digital Post
http://www.m2digitalpost.com


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Chris HarlanRe: I really must be doing something wrong.
by on May 9, 2015 at 2:55:24 pm

[Michael W. Towe] "Incorrect spelling of Premier Pro is simply a bug in Mikebrain Ver. 19.66. I have reported this bug to to both of the manufacturers at Mombrain LLC and Dadbrain, Inc. However they keep assuring me that the hardware is bug free and I should contact the elementary programers at Schoolbrain, Inc.
"


I live for moments like that.


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Andy EdwardsRe: I really must be doing something wrong.
by on May 4, 2015 at 8:04:58 pm

[Dennis Radeke] "How much RAM have you allocated to Adobe apps in the preferences? Some times folks put too MUCH RAM to Adobe. Rule of thumb is to have 50-75% to Adobe and when you have problems, generally, put LESS RAM to Adobe. So for 32GB, I would probably have 18-20GB allocated for Adobe. If you put it to 26-28GB, then that is definitely a part of your problem.
"


Interesting Dennis. Thanks for the tips. How come Premiere and AME default to almost maximum amount of RAM in the preferences when first run? Wouldn't it make sense to have the default be far less RAM if this is such a problem with sharing RAM with the OS or other programs? VS. setting up Premiere or all the Adobe applications to take a large chunk of RAM and cause potential issues for the user.

Andy Edwards


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Dennis RadekeRe: I really must be doing something wrong.
by on May 5, 2015 at 11:49:04 am

[Andy Edwards] "How come Premiere and AME default to almost maximum amount of RAM in the preferences when first run?"

They don't. I believe it will typically default to around 70% and round up or down to the nearest gigabyte. That is the nominal and best starting point to provide best performance for both OS and applications.

I will have to dig in my email archives to remember (again) why lowering the RAM in some cases will help performance, but I do remember that it has to do with bottle necking - as you might expect.


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Alex UdellRe: I really must be doing something wrong.
by on May 5, 2015 at 3:28:22 pm

Hi Dennis...

isn't factoring the number of cores present in the CPU also a contributing factor?

Alex


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Dennis RadekeRe: I really must be doing something wrong.
by on May 5, 2015 at 3:31:37 pm

[Alex Udell] "isn't factoring the number of cores present in the CPU also a contributing factor?"

Yes, for sure. I use the analogy of the # of cores being the cylinders of the engine and the amount of RAM as how much gas is going into the engine. If you're not getting enough gas, you don't go very fast.


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Mike JacksonRe: I really must be doing something wrong.
by on May 7, 2015 at 7:50:19 pm

I've experienced this same issue on both a feature and the very late stages of a pilot I just finished - Premiere keeps working away at something mysterious after all footage is loaded, peak files generated, etc.

In the final stages of the feature, wait times could be up to 15 minutes before I could get cutting. What was interesting was that the amount of footage (4Tb) barely increased after the first couple of weeks, but the load times kept going up. Similarly, it was only at the very end of the pilot that I started noticing the 'start-up lag'. Again, no new footage had been added to the project.

So what changed in both projects and slowed them down? The only thing I can think of is THE NUMBER OF SEQUENCES. By the end of both of these projects I had many many versions of each sequence. I've never been able to get ths confirmed by anyone at Adobe, but my personal theory is that Premiere has to think about all your sequences before it's ready to go. When I've deleted large numbers of sequences from my projects, the load time has definitely improved.

I also concur with the recommendation to transcode 4k H264. We had a ton of 4k GoPro drone footage in both shows, and it was just too sluggish to work with efficiently.



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Alex UdellRe: I really must be doing something wrong.
by on May 8, 2015 at 2:08:10 am

Mike...that's interesting...have you ever thought about working forward by importing the needed sequences into a new project so that you can step back if necessary, but be lighter and faster at the current stage?

just a guess based on what you posted...


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Mike JacksonRe: I really must be doing something wrong.
by on May 8, 2015 at 2:24:31 am

Well, it's only now, with two big projects done, that the possible culprit (many sequences) has become clear.

That said, with the accumulation of producer notes, network notes, etc. etc, it leads to a lot of versions, and the constant need to refer (or revert back) to them at a moment's notice. Other people may like to work differently, but for myself, I'd rather pay the 'load time tax' once at the start of my work day, and then be able to move nimbly between sequences for the rest of the day. Alternative methods, requiring me to stop and load other sequences repeatedly during the day, just slow me down while I'm 'in the zone'. It's a totally valid way to work though, and might be the best option for some people.

But all THAT said, the instant we lock picture I now blow out all the old sequences ; )



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Alex UdellRe: I really must be doing something wrong.
by on May 8, 2015 at 10:25:53 am

great point. had through thru the context.

:)

Alex Udell
Editing, Motion Graphics, and Visual FX


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