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PAL content going 4:3 instead of 16:9

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John Riker
PAL content going 4:3 instead of 16:9
on Feb 17, 2014 at 9:33:37 pm

I usually have NTSC content however have a set of DVD's that are PAL and trying to convert them to MP4 in order to watch thru my media system without the disks. I will say they are acting odd but probably need different handling than I normally do. I have the MainConcept TotalCode add-on and using Premiere Pro CC. Because of TotalCode can read in the VOB files directly. The files are basically:

  • 25.00 fps

  • Pixel Aspect Ratio IN PREMIERE: 1.4587

  • Image Size: 720 x 576

  • Display Aspect Ratio in MediaInfo: 16:9


  • Looks wide aspect in main preview window, but when I display it in any pop-up editing plugins like NeatVideo it looks square (4:3) and the final output is the same. Any thoughts on what I need to fix this? Or what settings I need on input/output to get it displaying right?

    Thanks.

    JR


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    Ann Bens
    Re: PAL content going 4:3 instead of 16:9
    on Feb 17, 2014 at 9:47:16 pm

    Make sure the footage is interpreted as widescreen and your sequence is widescreen
    Might want to nest first before adding neat video.

    -----------------------------------------------
    Adobe Certified Expert Premiere Pro CC
    Adobe Community Professional


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    John Riker
    Re: PAL content going 4:3 instead of 16:9
    on Feb 17, 2014 at 9:56:02 pm

    Thanks for the reply. Interpret Footage, if that's what you were referring to, shows D1/DV PAL Widescreen 16:9 (1.4587) for the Pixel Aspect Ratio. Final output is square and visually stretched vertically. This happens with our without NeatVideo. Tried several other "Interpret" settings but all seem the same. Maddening.

    One other item to note you mentioned Sequence. I checked that and it has Pixel Aspect Ratio the same as about with Widescreen 16:9 but the Editing Mode, which I've never messed with before, says "Rovi TotalCode DVCPRO SD". Also preview file format says "DVCPRO 25 24p Wide".

    JR


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    Ann Bens
    Re: PAL content going 4:3 instead of 16:9
    on Feb 17, 2014 at 10:01:09 pm

    Which Premiere version and why the mainconcept code.

    -----------------------------------------------
    Adobe Certified Expert Premiere Pro CC
    Adobe Community Professional


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    John Riker
    Re: PAL content going 4:3 instead of 16:9
    on Feb 17, 2014 at 10:06:25 pm

    Premiere Pro CC so specifically 7.2.1 and Mainconcept because it can't handle MPEG2 content. Note even when I convert this content to MP4 with Handbrake still an issue in Premiere but either way TotalCode codec lets me work without converting multiple times.

    Thanks.

    JR


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    Jeff Pulera
    Re: PAL content going 4:3 instead of 16:9
    on Feb 18, 2014 at 1:44:14 am

    Export using square pixels (1.0 Pixel Aspect Ratio) at 1024x576 and this will maintain the proper 16:9 aspect when played in other applications

    Thanks

    Jeff Pulera
    Safe Harbor Computers


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    John Riker
    Re: PAL content going 4:3 instead of 16:9
    on Feb 18, 2014 at 2:36:07 pm
    Last Edited By John Riker on Feb 18, 2014 at 2:40:16 pm

    Genius. Thanks Jeff.

    I left the source materials and sequence as they are (1.4587 pixel aspect ratio) and on export set to 1.0 and width to 1024. Output is then as expected.

    Two other questions.

    1. Should I be doing anything additional with NeatVideo? When I add that plugin and click on it to manage any noise, it shows in the scrunched view that I was dealing with before your response. Not sure if that's something to be concerned with or how I'm supposed to be managing that.

    2. Are there any articles that describe how to calculate things as you did or tutorials to understand when/why you set things certain ways. Find I don't retain things unless I fully understand the why's.

    Thanks.

    JR


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    Jeff Pulera
    Re: PAL content going 4:3 instead of 16:9
    on Feb 18, 2014 at 3:05:01 pm

    Hi John,

    Glad to help. DV widescreen is not a true widescreen format - it is "anamorphic" 16:9, basically meaning "stretched". Note that whether shooting in a 4:3 or 16:9 record mode, PAL DV is always 720x576, right? So how do we arrive at widescreen? Easy, just change the shape of the pixels, known as Pixel Aspect Ratio, to accommodate.

    By using rectangular pixels, this makes the image wider when played back. The problem is, the player has to understand and respect the PAR. If the player assumes square pixels (1.0 PAR) as many do, then the video looks distorted on playback.

    So for computer/web viewing of anamorphic sources, what you want to do is always create the content using 1.0 PAR and then the video will always look correct.

    Divide 1024 by 16 and 576 by 9 and you get 64. Divide both sides of 1024x576 by 64 and you get 16x9. See how neat that all works out? For NTSC DV users, the widescreen export setting using 1.0 PAR would be 864x480. NTSC DV wide uses 1.2 PAR, and 720x1.2 = 864.

    HDV is also an anamorphic format, recording as 1440x1080 with a PAR of 1.333, and 1440x1.333 = 1920, putting HDV playback at 1920x1080. Note that 1440x1080 is actually a 4:3 ratio, so for instance if you export a still from an HDV clip in Premiere and open it in a viewer, it looks like 4:3 since square pixels are assumed for stills. In Photoshop, simply change the dimension of the still image to 1920x1080 and good to go then.

    720p and 1080i/p formats already use 1.0 PAR with 1280x720 and 1920x1080, so no changes needed there.

    Thanks

    Jeff Pulera
    Safe Harbor Computers


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    John Riker
    Re: PAL content going 4:3 instead of 16:9
    on Feb 18, 2014 at 5:01:33 pm

    Thanks for the detailed information. I think one more question. In my case, should the size be 1024x576 or 1050x576? From reading there is an 720x576 anamorphic ITU which seems to be linked to my pixel aspect ratio of 1.458 (article says 1050x576 is the right size), and a 720x576 anamorphic 'NLE' which seems to relate to a pixel aspect ratio of 1.42 (article says 1024x576 is the right size).

    Here is where I'm reading. Hopefully not bad to post links:

    http://www.sciencemedianetwork.org/wiki/Tutorials/Video/Pixel_Aspect_Ratio


    Thoughts?

    Steve


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    Jeff Pulera
    Re: PAL content going 4:3 instead of 16:9
    on Feb 18, 2014 at 6:16:19 pm

    Hi John,

    Looking at the chart you referenced, in the right-hand column regarding aspect ratio, you'll notice that the 1050x576 format does not come out to 16:9, so I would not worry about that one, stick with 1024x576.

    I believe what the writer is getting at is that DV PAL doesn't start with a PAR of 1.0 - PAL is 1.09 and NTSC uses 0.9, so what he's saying is that since the starting point is NOT a square pixel with 1.0 PAR, that changes what the wide conversion ought to come out to, if one wants to get technical about it. So if for instance there is a graphic of a perfect circle in the original clip, it may be slightly off after converting to square pixels.

    You'll find that 720x1.4587 does come out to 1050, so that's where that figure comes from, but for simplicity let's just say 1024x576 provides a 16:9 result and that is close enough without over-analyzing it all.

    At the urging of the BBC, Adobe did change some aspect ratio calculations starting with CS4 - http://www.mikeafford.com/blog/2009/03/pal-d1-dv-widescreen-square-pixel-se...

    Thanks

    Jeff Pulera
    Safe Harbor Computers


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    John Riker
    Re: PAL content going 4:3 instead of 16:9
    on Feb 23, 2014 at 1:18:43 am
    Last Edited By John Riker on Feb 23, 2014 at 1:22:09 am

    Thanks for the link and extra info. Good info that lead to other info. I read somewhere that for like after effect or something you can change the app so it works the "old" way instead of 1050 by default. Interesting enough in Premiere when I pick 1024 on output I get black bars on all sides. Then trim them off after so footage ends up around 1000 by something. When I select a width of 1050 on export shows no bars in preview but end up with 12 pixel on the right and left side but top is fine. Not sure if there is something in premiere to tell it in this case to use 1024 instead of 1050 by default so it doesn't stick in the black bars when converting. Assuming getting premier back to the cs3 way it used to work would change anything.

    Thanks.

    JR


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