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Adobe admits PPro 2.0 HDV export to tape flaw. no solution

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HDflyer
Adobe admits PPro 2.0 HDV export to tape flaw. no solution
on May 13, 2007 at 8:16:40 am

I have been trying to export a HDV 1080I project back to tape (at 1080I) and always get a grainy picture upon playing the tape back on my large plasma TV. When the camera isn


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Vincent Becquiot
Re: Adobe admits PPro 2.0 HDV export to tape flaw. no solution
on May 13, 2007 at 5:45:08 pm

Well, working with HDV natively in Premiere should probably be the first issue. Most of us don't, because it is very, very slow... and that's the actual first flaw.

As for the grain issue, it's going to be there because you are recompressing to HDV, which is already highly compressed to start with.

If you added any effects, color correction, the quality is going to take an additional big hit. There could be additional issues with the export out of Premiere, but don't expect a clean export either way.

Just think of it as taking VOBs out of a DVD, editing them and exporting to DVD again. If you've seen those results on a plasma, you'll know what I mean...

Cheers,

Vince



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Tim Wilson
Re: Adobe admits PPro 2.0 HDV export to tape flaw. no solution
on May 13, 2007 at 9:23:36 pm

[Vincent Becquiot] "Most of us don't, because it is very, very slow"

It was only a very few years ago when those of us in the NLE biz were playing the "my HDV's more native than yours" game. My own pitch was "Our HDV is late, but we're doing it right by making it native."

So what's your HDV workflow, Vincent?



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Vincent Becquiot
Re: Adobe admits PPro 2.0 HDV export to tape flaw. no solution
on May 13, 2007 at 11:59:43 pm

Hey Tim,

Well, my workflow "was" the Axio route, and although I never got to the point of purchasing the sytem, I have a good friend who was willing to share it enough for me to realize that it was a much more workable system than the software solution Premiere offers (which is not really a big complaint for me on the side of Premiere), but the other big two do handle HDV much better natively.

My biggest complaint has really been the compressed look of HDV, and that's for a whole different discussion.

I now only work with SD and DVCPro, and a bit of HDCAM. If you asked me, I'd say that the workflow for DVCPro is even worse than HDV on the editing side, but the look is much more pleasing, and you can obviously work in true 1080p.

Because it is my feeling that HDV may not be around that much longer, I would be surprised if Adobe were to work that hard at speeding up the process...

BTW Tim, what do you like to edit with in that little bit of spare time you have left ?

Cheers,

Vince


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Tim Wilson
Re: Adobe admits PPro 2.0 HDV export to tape flaw. no solution
on May 14, 2007 at 2:18:48 pm

[Vincent Becquiot] "I'd say that the workflow for DVCPro is even worse than HDV on the editing side"

Another thread I think, but I'd love to hear why you think so. I have zero experience with this, but I read on the FCP board all the time that people are shooting HDV, and capturing to DVCPro via HD-SDI, because of what they see as workflow advantages.

[Vincent Becquiot] "it is my feeling that HDV may not be around that much longer"

I've wondered about this myself. I understand why it was developed -- a way to get HD cameras, tapes, data rates and prices into the smallest footprints -- but I can't help see it as an interim step. A very, very relevant one that's played a critical role in HD adoption, but....

Of course, I feel that Blu-ray and HD DVD are interim formats with a far shorter life ahead of them, so what do I know? :-)

[Vincent Becquiot] "what do you like to edit with in that little bit of spare time you have left ?"

I have no spare time. :-) After wandering in the wilderness of linear editing, I started with Premiere in 1995, then moved to Media 100 in 1996 for my business. Mostly FCP once I moved to Boris. When I was at Avid, I spent a lot of time with Xpress Pro and Media Composer, vastly preferring the latter. (Nice that it's available as software-only now.)

Now the wheel has turned, and I'm back to Premiere. I don't edit much at all -- mostly screen-capture movies from Camtasia -- but there's a lot of other things to do with Premiere that I'm also enjoying.

Far more time spent working on The COW magazine, though, where I'm getting to know InDesign, and COW podcasts, for which I'm using Audition. So definitely an Adobe dude....

Hey, drop me a line when you get a chance, tim(at)creativecow.net

Happy to hear from other folks too. Just don't ask me any technical questions offline. :-) I know almost nothing compared to the sages here.

tw



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Vincent Becquiot
Re: Adobe admits PPro 2.0 HDV export to tape flaw. no solution
on May 14, 2007 at 5:05:45 pm

Tim,

My DVCPro comment was referring to the fact that you can't import the format to Premiere without third party software period. I guess I can say I am lucky to have been able to invest into an AJA card, but not everyone can justify that investment. The other software options that I have seen are not much cheaper, and much slower, except maybe for Raylight which I've seen plugged here a few times, but have yet to put my hands on.
I wish I had more time to experiment as well ;-)

The FCP workflow, I am not familiar with, but an HD SDI import is obviously a great option on either platform, if one can afford the card and storage costs. That's easily 10 times the cost of Premiere, which many don't realize until after they purchased the software.

Nice to see you going around these forums, hope to hear more from you.

Anyway to make the magazine weekly ? :-)

Cheers,

Vince


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Mike Cohen
Re: Adobe admits PPro 2.0 HDV export to tape flaw. no solution
on May 14, 2007 at 5:15:38 pm

this could be the most relevant thread recently. Premiere is a great tool, but combined with other tools it can be even better.

"Premiere edits HDV natively" is good marketing.

"Buy Premiere, and then buy a AJA or Blackmagic or Matrox product so you can do what we say you can do." Not good marketing!

Interesting theory about HDV.

Mike Cohen

PS - Love the magazine Tim.


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Tim Wilson
Re: Adobe admits PPro 2.0 HDV export to tape flaw. no solution
on May 15, 2007 at 11:21:21 am

Thanks for the good word on the magazine, guys. We really love doing it.

For anyone not subscribed, this is pretty much last call to get a print copy of the next issue. (You can always get them in PDF too -- many people do both.) It's free of course, and oh so tasty.


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Five Talents
Re: Adobe admits PPro 2.0 HDV export to tape flaw. no solution
on May 17, 2007 at 4:10:15 pm

I just got into HDV recently and was thinking about using the same workflow to preserve some of the edited HDV home movie to tape (at least until later I can really burn HD or BR DVD.) I would expect this is just like the standard DV workflow since HDV has been established for a long time now. Apparently I have to think again.

HDFlyer,

What do you mean by "Adobe using too low a bit rate"? Isn't HDV always 25Mbps? I know there is quality difference between different codec, and HDV's high compression rate will most likey lose some original quality, so the issue may be at the codec engine and the nature of HDV compression instead of bit rate? It would be a big flaw if Adobe does not use 25Mbps to render HDV project when exporting.

Vincent,

If I am just editing HDV in PPro 2 and doing all the color correction/effect/transition without leaving PPro... I would think there is no 'quality loss' since all of these operations are done without generating any intermediate HDV generations. It would be a different story if you export your edited result to m2t, and do some post in other program then export back to PPro as m2t again. In this case there would be a loss of quality since two more generations of HDV compression were incurred. Am I right in the understanding above?

I know HDV editing is PPro is not as fast as miniDV, but have found it quite acceptable on my Opteron dual core 2.6GHz, which can handle one stream in real time with about 35-45% CPU usage. I have tried the trial version of Cineform Aspect HD but did not find it to speed up much more (using High quality convert, it's about twice the size and using about 25-35% when playing one stream in PPro 2.) I actually have some occasional frame delay when playing cineform file, but not on HDV/m2t file. I know this "less compressed" intermediate format is good if you need to exchange files between different applications and want to preserve quality after several video generations... but am not sure if for a home/consumer's simple editing use is it worth the cost? BTW, what is your approach to archive your project's HD output if you are not using HDV tape (using large Hard Drive, I guess)?






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Vincent Becquiot
Re: Adobe admits PPro 2.0 HDV export to tape flaw. no solution
on May 18, 2007 at 12:16:06 am

Remember that, just as it happens with DV, the quality loss comes from the fact that you are altering the original footage. In color correcting the footage and exporting back to HDV, you are forcing a new compression to HDV, no way around it. We still call that a generation loss from back in the days.

The only way to export without that quality loss is using the uncompressed setting. If you have to go to HDV tape, then you have to choice, but for DVD authoring, you will be better off either exporting to Mpeg2 DVD, or uncompressed if you have the space.

Cheers,

Vince


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Rajarshi
Re: Adobe admits PPro 2.0 HDV export to tape flaw. no solution
on May 24, 2007 at 11:19:49 am

Well, working with HDV natively in Premiere should probably be the first issue. Most of us don't, because it is very, very slow... and that's the actual first flaw


vincent,

I have a Athlon64 3000, with 2 gig RAM. Using Cineform Aspect HD I captured HDV clips. The source HDV clips play fine in media player,but when Im trying to play it in the PPro2 tileline, its stuttering playback...

Please suggest...

RAj



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Arson XL
Re: Adobe admits PPro 2.0 HDV export to tape flaw. no solution
on May 23, 2007 at 10:06:56 am

HDV is still consumer quality HD. It uses a standard DV tape and the same bitrate as MiniDV Standard Definition. HDV It has to compress your HD footage more to fit it on that bitrape/tape.


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