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Media Management

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Video Opp
Media Management
on Mar 6, 2006 at 7:52:50 pm

OK, call me late in complaining about this, but I have been on a shoot for the last couple of months and am just now settling back in to my editing room. I have downloaded the sample version of PPro 2.0 and played around with it some. I have to say that I am greatly disappointed that Adobe did not do anything to improve media management. I know that most of the people who use PPro may not even realize that there is a problem here because they work on such small projects, or projects that while long, may only have about 100 clips in total. Perhaps those designing the program don


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Pat McGowan
Re: Media Management
on Mar 6, 2006 at 10:26:37 pm

Add to this the inability to apply effects and/or settings "globally" to clips on a timeline and the positive attributes (which are many) of PPRO 2.0 pale, quickly.


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Steven L. Gotz
Re: Media Management
on Mar 6, 2006 at 10:42:30 pm

Actually, it is quite simple to apply effects to multiple clips on the sequence. Just apply them to one and then copy and then Paste Attributes.

It would be handy to be able to have bins work like Windows Explorer, but Adobe must not have recieved enough feature requests to put it into the product. Add your name to the feature request list by putting in your own request.


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videoworx
Re: Media Management
on Mar 7, 2006 at 1:01:00 am

you can also apply an "adjustment layer" (I forget what premiere 2.0 calls it) to apply a pile of effects to multiple clips at the same time...


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Carl
Re: Media Management
by
on Mar 7, 2006 at 5:33:44 pm


"you can also apply an "adjustment layer" (I forget what premiere 2.0 calls it) to apply a pile of effects to multiple clips at the same time.."



.- Nope, you can't.

The "invisible layer" (that's the name) is only for a very (VERY) limited number of effects.
Only the Generate-type fx, like Timecode, particles or Knoll lights will work.
There is no change (at all) or possible adjustment on the layers underneath using this invisible layer.

It's just an ordinary, simple and vulgar alpha channnel, like a title layer.

Would have been a NIIIICE feature to have an adjustment layer, not the "invisible layer" bad joke.

Anyway, Premiere never have had an adjustment layer (still doesn't), so at least it's not a bug or a step back.

If we lived without it before, we will survive.

But it would have been a NIIIICE feature and a good selling point.



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Carl
Re: Media Management
by
on Mar 7, 2006 at 5:48:06 pm

The same with the cumbersome and clumsy Multicam implementation in 2.0

We never had it, so at least is not a step back.


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Ron Shook
Re: Media Management
on Mar 7, 2006 at 1:20:55 am

Steven,

[Steven L. Gotz] "It would be handy to be able to have bins work like Windows Explorer, but Adobe must not have recieved enough feature requests to put it into the product. Add your name to the feature request list by putting in your own request."

That's all well and good to have feature requests go through the standard channels and be toted up on lists for implementation when it can be gotten to, but that certainly doesn't measure the anguish of the long form, heavy duty editor with thousands of sources, who grits his or her teeth all day, every day because a necessary feature wasn't implimented because it wasn't necessary to the short form or light editor, and didn't get enough numbers on the list. Those absolute numbers of the feature request list need to be tempered with judgments about the quality and overarching nature of the requested features, not just the numbers.

So, I sure hope that Adobe has someone of stature in their shop that monitors this and other heavily used forums and that together with those like yourself, who perhaps have their ear, can provide that tempered judgement that goes beyond the absolute numbers to the core of useability.

Ron Shook





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Video Opp
Re: Media Management
on Mar 7, 2006 at 1:17:50 pm

I have sat down with someone who is on the design team for PPro who sat there and told me that he "hates the bin structure of PPro". There has got to be something going on here that is more then, "not getting enough feature requests".



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Paul King
Re: Media Management
on Mar 7, 2006 at 1:54:36 pm

This is a funny thing, I have never heard of this before.

Are ya pissed yet?

You actually put the point across well and you are correct.

BTW - transparent video in Premiere has very limited uses - I dont think it works for mose effects (it does for TC burn in).

Pat's also right, copying and pasting FX is fine, however because you cant clear all effects from a group of clips, you cant easily make a change to the FX across all those clips when you repaste - you get duplicate FX.

I think we need a bit of "are we there yet?". "are we there yet?".
"are we there yet?".
"are we there yet?".
"are we there yet?".
"are we there yet?".
"are we there yet?".
"are we there yet?".
"are we there yet?".
"are we there yet?".
"are we there yet?".
"are we there yet?".

Here's ya bloody media management now stop saying that! :]



Paul


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Dave Friend
Re: Are we there yet?
on Mar 7, 2006 at 2:21:58 pm

Paul,

Are you trying to tell us that, like exasperated parents, Adobe is ignoring us and considers our questions as petulant cries?

Dave


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Pat McGowan
Re: Are we there yet?
on Mar 7, 2006 at 3:41:16 pm

Petulant, now there's a word you don't hear every day.

When I hitch my wagon to a vendor I do not want to listen to my editors complain about slowdowns in workflow, I do not want to listen to my editors complain about missing features like the lack of global effects, I do not want to listen to my editors compain about system stability. I do not want my editors to worry that they are riding the wrong technical horse and limioting their career paths. I do not want to be left out in the cold by a big corporate machine.

It's the same old story and it's getting a bit stale. After several years as a PAYING CUSTOMER of software/hardware vendors, I am losing my tolerance for the old "hurry up and wait for the next version" for features and reliability that should be fundamental in a product offering.

Adobe, listen to your users and get the basics right. Bring some heavy hitting professinal users in to your product development pipeline, now. I guarantee that it will pay dividends in your quest for market share and after sale revenue.





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Video Opp
Re: Are we there yet?
on Mar 7, 2006 at 5:21:55 pm

Well, I for one am voting with my credit card this time round. I have three seats of PPRo 1.5 and will not be updating any of them. Last summer I moved to another solution, primarily because of the bin structure issue. I had high hopes for 2.0, and was fully planning on coming back once the bins were fixed. But, now that is clear that this problem has not been addressed, I will be staying with a program where media sorting and retrieval is a delight rather then a pain.

I believe Pat has hit the nail on the head. Even though Adobe markets their video package as a "Pro" product, the developers apparently seem to be stuck working with consultants that are either hobbyists or working in a very narrow venues that do not require large amounts of clips in any given project.. (Wedding Producers, please know that I have the greatest respect for what you do and do not mean to imply that you are not "Pro") If they truly want to market their editor to documentary producers, they need to start working with and listening to the simple requests of documentary producers.

If Adobe would like to grow in the market they need to research the needs of all sectors of the market and design their product based on the needs of the users that they want to attract rather then the volume of feature requests. If you only have a few documentary producers in your user base because of defects in your design, you are not going to get a lot of feature requests for the missing elements.

If anyone from Adobe is listening, please consider this advice: Having a bin structure that makes it easy to sort and retrieve clips is not going to cause you to loose any of your loyal client base, and it will help you open up other market sectors. It seems like a


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Paul King
Re: Are we there yet?
on Mar 7, 2006 at 7:03:59 pm

Who's that?


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Video Opp
Re: Are we there yet?
on Mar 7, 2006 at 9:24:01 pm

"Who's that?"

In Edius, Media Management, at least as far as sorting and retreval goes, is an absolute delight! A typical project for me has two or three thousand clips that I like to sort through four or five layers of folders. In PPro this is a nightmare. In Edius it is a breeze! I gave up features and endured learning a crazy interface to get this, it was that important to me. Now, whenever I have to open up an old PPro project to make some tweeks for a client, I am reminded once again what a pain PPro is on this point and I can't wait to get back to Edius. I was hoping 2.0 would solve this, but to my absloute amazement it has not.

For me, editing is a pain to start with. Frustrate me everytime I need to sort or find a clip and your program is not likely to remain my program of choice. Make my editing time easy and you will win my mind (and my credit card).



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Paul King
Re: Are we there yet?
on Mar 7, 2006 at 7:10:32 pm

Hi Dave

No I'm saying you need to cry more petulantly in order to get this one over the line. I am with you all on this, the problem is that there's not been enough of us in Adobe's face about it.

When we see these posts it's very hard to sit here and say nothing, however as a tester that's all NDA allows me to do. Did I ask for MM repeatedly - yes. Was I drowned out by "I want to make a DVD from the timeline cause I cant be arsed authoring a DVD" - hell yeah.

Unfortunately I have to take it up the arse over v2.0 because I test, even though I cried petulantly about these issues.


Thanks



paul


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Alex Hawkins
Re: Are we there yet?
on Mar 8, 2006 at 2:09:57 am

[Paul King] "Was I drowned out by "I want to make a DVD from the timeline cause I cant be arsed authoring a DVD" - hell yeah."

Paul if this really was the case then that speaks volumes. I can't really believe that. If that is where their focus lies it doesn't bode all that well for professionals who don't really make alot of DVD's but who just print to tape alot. . . I just read this thread after posting my earlier response. . .Oh well.

Alex



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Dave Friend
Re: Are we there yet?
on Mar 8, 2006 at 3:36:16 pm

I believe Paul is saying that if you want something you should tell Adbobe about it because the more noise they hear on any given topic the more likely they are to act. I don't know how much this or any other public forum influences their thinking. It's not readily apparent that a lot of weight is placed on the suggestions/complaints/comments posted here.

The best course is probably for each and every one of us to use Adobe's official "Product Feature Request" web form at http://www.adobe.com/support/feature.html

Maybe we should use this forum to coordinate "mass mailings" via their request page?

Dave


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Video Opp
Re: Are we there yet?
on Mar 8, 2006 at 7:05:47 pm

I have no confidence in this method. Users and testers have been presenting this bin structure problem since September of 2003, when PPro 1.0 first came out. This method has not worked through two revisions. The problem, though frequently reported, has not been taken seriously.

I am finished sending the same feature request over and over. In any relationship there comes a time when you just have to accept the fact that the other party is not listening, and move on!








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Tim Kolb
Re: Media Management
on Mar 7, 2006 at 7:58:59 pm

[Video Opp] "I have sat down with someone who is on the design team for PPro who sat there and told me that he "hates the bin structure of PPro". There has got to be something going on here that is more then, "not getting enough feature requests"."


Yes...and it isn't like a few of us who supply Adobe with input on these things haven't been asking for these features...and, yes, many of us have some credentials.

I think there has to be a technical limitation in there somewhere, because separate bins have been asked for incessantly since PPro arrived on the scene, from all types of users.



TimK,

Kolb Productions,
Creative Cow Host,
Author/Trainer
http://www.focalpress.com
http://www.classondemand.net


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Pat McGowan
Re: Media Management
on Mar 7, 2006 at 9:40:05 pm

I'd sure be interested to know if there is, in fact, a structural barrier to the implementation of a flexible bin structure. I don't feel like getting led around by the nose by Adobe for the next several years.

Fact is, as far as we can tell, that this and the lack of an ability to apply and unapply effects to a series of clips are the two major gotchas with PPRO. Fix these and lots of doubters will flock to the product.

So........any product management types from Adobe care to enlighten us (the customers)? Hmmmmmm???


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Steve Freebairn
Re: Media Management
on Mar 7, 2006 at 10:32:58 pm

Can you please tell that person to push for MXF support for panasonic's P2 cameras.


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Pat McGowan
Re: Media Management
on Mar 8, 2006 at 1:37:57 pm

I think it's fair to say that a lot of video professionals (no disrespect to those who do not make the living using these tools) have made a decision to buy PPRO and find it wanting in a few critical areas.

Adobe developers and product managers: pay attention and get this message to management!! Get this stuff done (mxf support, media management, global effects manipulation) as a first priority for a patch. There is a lot of pent up need in the market and if Adobe does not respond, it may miss a significant percentage of market share. In other words, you'll miss major $$$$, maybe that will get the message across?


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Paul King
Re: Media Management
on Mar 8, 2006 at 4:04:02 pm

I look at it this way.

Here is a list of this that should never have beaten Media Management - bins independant of projects, sequences independant of projects, ability to swap out media with different resolutions and with different properties (like with audio or without)effects clearing to multiple clips, append, add and overwrite effects when pasting, speed and duration change to multiple clips.

Clip notes
DVD authoring
Imbeded title files
Half baked transparent video
GPU effects - how sh1t are they?
Timeline page scrolling

All these thing were lower down my list.


Paul


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Video Opp
Re: Media Management
on Mar 8, 2006 at 7:14:22 pm

Exactly.

Bin structure was fine in Premier. There was no reason that it should have taken 100 leaps back in time when the program went "Pro" The very first building block of the new program should have been a flexible bin structure that allows for easy sorting and retrieval of media. This program should not have made it out the 1.0 door without this. The fact that we are now two releases down the road without this being fixed leaves me stunned. I just can't believe it. I really can't believe it!




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Mike Cohen
Re: Media Management
on Mar 8, 2006 at 7:43:37 pm

I for one have my 2.0 upgrade still sitting in the box. One of these days we will give it a go.
Coming from Media 100 where you can have multiple bins and timelines open in separate windows, and drag clips from one to the other to your heart's content, moving to Premiere has required a different workflow. And why can't you click in the bin, and hit a letter or number on the keyboard and be taken to the first clip beginning with that letter or number? Too much mouse work to find a clip.


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Alex Hawkins
Re: Media Management
on Mar 8, 2006 at 10:15:08 pm

OOooooo I dunno Paul, Timeline Scrolling would be pretty high on my list....

. . . Seriously.

Alex Hawkins
Canberra, Australia


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