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Do YOU own an HMC-150 or HMC-40?

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Todd Geer
Do YOU own an HMC-150 or HMC-40?
on Jun 15, 2010 at 4:36:21 pm

There exists an issues with timecode and the AVCHD specification in the HMC line - maybe other cameras too. There are a handful of posts out there about the problem and involve a range of editing applications.

I am working with Panasonic to solve the problem, but without others piping in with "Yea, mine does that too," they will not see it as a large enough issue to resolve.

If you have an HMC-150 or -40, or other AVCHD camera, please let me know if you are experiencing this simple symptom.

- Each of the AVCHD files recorded on the HMC-150 or HMC-40 and brought into an editing application, show a starting timecode of zero (00:00:00;00)

Your help is greatly appreciated!


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jerry norman
Re: Do YOU own an HMC-150 or HMC-40?
on Jun 16, 2010 at 12:18:55 pm

I experience this. Using HMC150 and Vegas 9.0e.

Jerry


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Todd Geer
Re: Do YOU own an HMC-150 or HMC-40?
on Jun 16, 2010 at 2:04:10 pm

Awesome, thanks Jerry!


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Alf Hanna
Re: Do YOU own an HMC-150 or HMC-40?
on Jun 16, 2010 at 3:59:35 pm

Tod,not sure I totally understand. if I drag a clip from my HMC-150 onto my timeline, where are you talking about? The timeline doesn't reset to the clip's "streams" setting, is that the setting you mean?

For example, when I look at a clip, the streams setting shows 00:00:09:.510

This was the second clip I shot that day, so it's likely that the first clip *was* 9 seconds long. So using Sony Vegas Pro 9.0d (not sure why I've not upgraded on this machine) it doesn't appear to be 'resetting' the timecode, if in fact the 'streams' info is the real timecode.

However, am I not seeing the right problem?

Hope this helps. I'll also look at my desktop machine and see if the same clip behaves in the same way on VP 9.0e which is what I have on that box.

Alf


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Alf Hanna
Re: Do YOU own an HMC-150 or HMC-40?
on Jun 16, 2010 at 4:11:30 pm

Sorry, it's obvious that the 'streams' is the length of the clip. So I don't think I understand what I'm looking for. Is the problem you describe only showing up if I set the timecode when shooting to something other than zero'ing out (resetting the timecode with each clip?). Once I clearly understand how to look for this, I'll try it with a bunch of older clips (I bought the HMC 150 in December) and see if I can see any change over time, i.e. are earlier clips unaffected by the issue, and later ones are).

Hope this helps.

Alf


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Todd Geer
Re: Do YOU own an HMC-150 or HMC-40?
on Jun 16, 2010 at 4:24:37 pm

Thanks for all the effort!! If my previous post is goobered and I wasn't clear, let me know.

And it doesn't seem to have anything to do with zero-ing, or resetting, or free run or rec run Timecode settings of any kind in the camera - the timecode recorded, as shown in the Playback mode on the camera (it IS there), simply is not seen by any Vegas install or user I've checked with.

The more folks who say, "I have Vegas and it doesn't show AVCHD Timecode" the more information I can get to Sony.

Thus far, NO Vegas user reports proper timecode display of AVCHD files in Vegas.

Thanks!


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Alf Hanna
Re: Do YOU own an HMC-150 or HMC-40?
on Jun 16, 2010 at 5:55:00 pm

You are right. There is no timecode in for any of my projects. While at this point it has not been an issue, I would *love* to see this fixed as I would hate to have it be an issue under deadline. In fact, with this knowledge, I would be likely to rent a competing camera if I needed to be editing with timecode sync. I'm sure Panny doesn't want that kind of thing to be happening. It might end up being an Sony EX-3!

I prefer editing with Vegas over FCP, so this might be an issue there as well. I use either depending on the job. So it's important to me to have no bugs of significance or without a known workaround on either platform.

I love my 150, and consider it a great investment. Please do your best to move this up the priority list with the software dev teams there.

Alf


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Todd Geer
Re: Do YOU own an HMC-150 or HMC-40?
on Jun 16, 2010 at 8:37:13 pm

Done. I submitted your input to Sony in my service request. They must be looking at it hard - they haven't even responded to me about it yet!

Panasonic wrote back to me and their statement was:

-----
Hello,

We checked with the Panasonic Product Engineering Group and they indicate the following:

Once you transcode it, the new TC will be different and this is an editing software issue.
Also with long GOP there is the possibility of missing frames during transcoding.
This does not appear to be a Panasonic problem with the camera.

Thanks
Raj
-----

I'm hoping that Sony will figure it out.

CS5 can see the timecode. Avid Media Composer can see the timecode. I understand that FCP can see the timecode. Vegas does not.

I'll keep you in the loop.


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Todd Geer
Re: Do YOU own an HMC-150 or HMC-40?
on Jun 16, 2010 at 4:16:58 pm

Hi, Alf - I think you're on the right track.

Basically, looking at Vegas's "Project Media" tab/window, "Details" view, there's a column labeled "Timecode In."

For any clip recorded with the 150, what is the "Timecode In" value? Do any of them start with something other than 00?

Subclips will show something other than zero, if you have any. We're looking for the original clips themselves.

In addition to the "Timecode In" column, the start and end timecodes of a clip are displayed on the clip when dropped onto the timeline. Options, Preferences, Video, "Show source frame numbers..." set to "Timecode." Any clips on the timeline after that setting is set to "Timecode" show timecode information?

Thank you!



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Todd Geer
Re: Do YOU own an HMC-150 or HMC-40?
on Jun 29, 2010 at 7:41:56 pm

For all following this post, Sony hasn't dropped the ball and is forwarding to development:


Thank you for your patience. I would just like to let you know that, since I am reproducing the issue here, I am going to be sending this issue off to our development team. They will look into the issue and offer solutions if available. If not, the issue will be bugged. I will update you once I hear back from them.



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Gilles Gagnon
Re: Do YOU own an HMC-150 or HMC-40?
on Jun 9, 2011 at 7:03:24 pm

Any news on this Todd?

Gilles

Gilles


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Todd Geer
Re: Do YOU own an HMC-150 or HMC-40?
on Jun 9, 2011 at 8:42:12 pm

So sorry. I thought I covered all of my posts on this issue.

Yes, Vegas now sees the avchd timecode as it was recorded from the camera. Yipee! It was a fix they put in a while back now. It might have even been with version 9, but I've lost track.

Strange thing is, I added Premiere to my toolbox and although I saw posts stating that it noted the proper timecode, I actually see that it does not. Weird.


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Gilles Gagnon
Re: Do YOU own an HMC-150 or HMC-40?
on Jun 9, 2011 at 8:45:19 pm

Thanks Todd, I appreciate you checking back in.

Before I purchase a 150... did the AVCHD work well for you in Vegas?

Gilles


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Todd Geer
Re: Do YOU own an HMC-150 or HMC-40?
on Jun 9, 2011 at 9:29:01 pm

It does not play smooth like the less compressed files, but with no fx and with my speedy processor, it plays at expected rate. Add some tracks and some effects and it will slow down. I often use either the "Proxy Stream" script to create easier-to-work-with proxy files (Google it) or transcode using Cineform NeoScene. In most cases, I just use the avchd files and do occasional ram preview or selective prerender. If you're looking for always 29.970 frame rate while playing the timeline, you probably won't get it. I have a pretty good box, 4 core and 8gb memory.


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Gilles Gagnon
Re: Do YOU own an HMC-150 or HMC-40?
on Jun 9, 2011 at 9:49:58 pm

Thanks for that Todd, very helpful.

I have an i7 920 w 12 gb ram. (a Dell Studio XPS). Let's hope that works out, if I get the Panny 150.

Gilles


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Gilles Gagnon
Re: Do YOU own an HMC-150 or HMC-40?
on Jun 9, 2011 at 9:54:00 pm

one more thing...

if/when you use proxy stream...

do you lose quality?

how long does it take to do the conversion? (ie, example for for a 30 min clip?)

Gilles

Gilles


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Todd Geer
Re: Do YOU own an HMC-150 or HMC-40?
on Jun 10, 2011 at 1:06:03 am

Yea, I sure assume that machine would kick some butt!

Yes, there is quality loss, but only during the time that the proxy files are used. The app is real handy. It creates proxy files for temporary use during editing when you need to zip around the interface and get an idea of what's where, then before you render out the final result, you switch back to the originals. Top quality, one generation.

I interned at High Noon Entertainment in Denver this last Spring semester and that's what they do too. They ingest the tapes for an episode as very low quality, crappy resolution files. They then do the editing. Before they do the final render, they re-ingest the tapes as high resolution and spit out what you see on TV. The proxy files are about as low quality as a bad web video.


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Todd Geer
Re: Do YOU own an HMC-150 or HMC-40?
on Jun 10, 2011 at 1:08:52 am

Oh, and conversion time. I don't recall it ever getting in my way. I save up and do a lot of the tedious stuff overnight. I've never come back in the morning and still had it running. I guess it would depend on the project size. Because it's a script in Vegas, it's simply Vegas that's doing the rendering. It brings in file1 to the timeline, renders as whatever proxy type you want, then closes that project, doesn't save, and brings in file2, etc.


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Gilles Gagnon
Re: Do YOU own an HMC-150 or HMC-40?
on Jun 10, 2011 at 1:52:12 am

Thanks for all that info Todd,

Great stuff!

Gilles


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