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Dirk Wellekens
Render settings
on Jul 19, 2018 at 11:01:29 am

Hi,

My old camcorder stopped working and I had to switch to a new one, which is of course capable of recording different resolutions. With my previous one (Panasonic) I recorded HA 1920, which was 50i. I rendered the final data to a Blu-ray ISO file (for my media player) and to an mts file with Sony AVC/MVC => AVCHD 1920x1080 50i, which I use for storage in case I need it later (I hope this is a right format for final storage)

My new camcorder can do 4K and 1080p. I suppose 4K might be too memory intensive, so I would think 1080p is the better solution with an advantage over 50i, right?

I have seen many discussions about how to render the 50p in Vegas, but most of them are about youtube, internet,... So my question is: what would be the recommended setting to render the 50p material into a final file for storage? I guess I can still render it to a Blu-ray ISO file as well with little adaptations?

A final question still: I read 50p is OK, but 25p is often not OK. So, when is the 25p preferred. I read somewhere that it has to do with technical and budget restrictions in film industry, but that doesn't sound to me as an argument to incorporate it in modern camcorders.

Dirk


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John Rofrano
Re: Render settings
on Jul 19, 2018 at 12:37:49 pm

[Dirk Wellekens] "My new camcorder can do 4K and 1080p. I suppose 4K might be too memory intensive, so I would think 1080p is the better solution with an advantage over 50i, right?"
You are mixing progressive shooting with frame rates. 50i is 25 frames per second. 25p is 25 frames per second. So 50i and 25p are both 25 frames per second. When you say your camera shoots 1080p what frame rate is that? Is it 25p or 50p? You should render to the same frame rate that it was recorded at. If it's 50p then render to 50p, if it's 25p then render to 25p.
[Dirk Wellekens] "I have seen many discussions about how to render the 50p in Vegas, but most of them are about youtube, internet,... So my question is: what would be the recommended setting to render the 50p material into a final file for storage? I guess I can still render it to a Blu-ray ISO file as well with little adaptations?"
The quality will never be better than the original footage but you didn't tell us what that is so we can't give an accurate recommendation. I would render to the original format. So if you are shooting AVCHD 1080p-50 @ 25Mbps then make your final renders AVCHD 1080p-50 @ 25Mbps. You could, of course, choose another format like Sony MXF and a higher bit rate but rendering to the same format that you shot with is perfectly fine for final file storage.
[Dirk Wellekens] "A final question still: I read 50p is OK, but 25p is often not OK. So, when is the 25p preferred. I read somewhere that it has to do with technical and budget restrictions in film industry, but that doesn't sound to me as an argument to incorporate it in modern camcorders."
Film is shot at 24 fps because it was just fast enough to give smooth playback without wasting film which was prohibitively expensive. PAL video is 25 fps because the AC electrical current in your home is 50Hz which limited the refresh rate of Cathode Ray Tubes (CRT) which were incapable of producing an entire frame at that rate so 2 half frames were interlaced (odd and even scan lines) producing 50i which resulted in 25 fps. The two have nothing to do with each other.

Modern camcorders can shoot 25p and 50p because televisions don't use cathode ray tubes anymore and modern TV displays are quite capable of delivering 50 full frames or more. 25p is preferred for footage shot at 25p or 50i. 50p is preferred for footage shot at 50p. If you are asking when is it preferable to shoot 25p vs 50p the only reason to shoot 50p if is you are recording fast moving objects and want smooth motion on playback. 50p produces smoother movement as you might expect. 25p is actually jerkier movement than 50i even though they both produce 25 frames per second which is why many people preferred 50p when shooting progressive.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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Dirk Wellekens
Re: Render settings
on Jul 19, 2018 at 1:58:55 pm

The older camcorder was 1080 50i (17Mbps). The new option is 1080 50p (28 Mbps - VBR). So, when I am shooting AVCHD 1080 50p you recommend making my final renders also AVCHD 1080 50p. Only, I don't see that option in Vegas, only AVCHD 50i. Also the templates for the Blu-ray also only show 50i. So, what do I use.

About your second remark. 50i and 25p are both 25fps, the 50i being interlaced, so I would guess 25p is better than 50i (as you capture all the information on 1 frame at 25p and in 50i it comes from odd and even lines). Is that right? But, as my camcorder only has 50i and 50p (no 25p), I should choose 50p anyway for best results?

Then, the camcorder can record AVCHD 1080/50p (28Mbps / VBR), (1920 x 1080/50p) and also MP4 1080p/50p(28M) (28Mbps / VBR), (1920 x 1080), which are comparable in bitrate and fps. Why should I choose one or the other? Furthermore, the MP4 can go up to 50Mbps, in contrast to the AVCHD. Is the bitrate for AVCHD limited and should I thus go for MP4 if I really want the best quality (at the expense of storage capacity, of course)? Which template to use then?

Finally, there is also a 24p option. What is that for?

Dirk


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John Rofrano
Re: Render settings
on Jul 19, 2018 at 6:56:36 pm

[Dirk Wellekens] "So, when I am shooting AVCHD 1080 50p you recommend making my final renders also AVCHD 1080 50p. Only, I don't see that option in Vegas, only AVCHD 50i. Also the templates for the Blu-ray also only show 50i. So, what do I use."
AVCHD is a subset of MPEG4. You can always use the Customize Template button and change the template to match your footage. It looks like Vegas Pro might not allow you to change the AVCHD to progressive. If that is the case, you can start with the Internet MP4 template and modify it to render 50p. The results will not be AVCHD compliant but they will be MPEG4 50p. Also look under both the Sony AVC and MainConcept AVC render types because both have different AVC/MPEG4 templates.

As for Blu-ray, that specification supports AVCHD but it doesn't support HD1080-50p which is why the templates won't allow you to create that can call it Blu-ray compliant.
[Dirk Wellekens] "About your second remark. 50i and 25p are both 25fps, the 50i being interlaced, so I would guess 25p is better than 50i (as you capture all the information on 1 frame at 25p and in 50i it comes from odd and even lines). Is that right?"
It depends on your definition of "better". With 25p motion is only sampled 25 times a second. With 50i motion is sampled 50 times a second. So 50i will give you smoother motion than 25p even though they are both 25 frames per second. The 50i will have more motion blur but some people (including myself) feel that is "better" than less blur but more jerky movement. As I said... It depends on your definition of "better". 😉
[Dirk Wellekens] "Then, the camcorder can record AVCHD 1080/50p (28Mbps / VBR), (1920 x 1080/50p) and also MP4 1080p/50p(28M) (28Mbps / VBR), (1920 x 1080), which are comparable in bitrate and fps. Why should I choose one or the other?"
AVCHD is a standard so that consumers can buy gear and software that works together. MP4 is a much broader standard but there is no guarantee that it is compatible with other MP4 formats. I don't think it matters much which you choose but I have always used AVCHD for better compatibility with the software you might be using to edit it. The quality will be the same either way because both formats use the same bit rate.
[Dirk Wellekens] "Finally, there is also a 24p option. What is that for?"
Some people like the cadence of film. If you are going for a "shot on film" look then 24p will help you get there but you must be careful to pan slowly because you can't swing a camera around at 24p like you can at 50p and get smooth pans.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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Dirk Wellekens
Re: Render settings
on Jul 19, 2018 at 8:36:35 pm

Very informative. Thank you


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Graham Bernard
Re: Render settings
on Jul 20, 2018 at 5:56:01 am
Last Edited By Graham Bernard on Jul 20, 2018 at 7:59:47 am

As always, John delivers both the evidenced based science and options for creativity, explained in a most attainable way - Thanks JR!

Here’s a great YT for the reasons NOT to shoot in 24fps .... But, and here’s the thing, Mr Peter “Hobbit” Jackson did shoot in 2x24fps ie 48fps and you’ve all seen the difference. Look for the comments. Now, his sig FPS has now been stamped on others captures. Look out for this peek into experimentation explanation given by this extraordinary explanation. Kudos to the presenter, Ted from the A-Team.







* Grazie

Video Content Creator and Potter
PC 7 64-bit 16gb * Intel® Core™i7-2600k Quad Core 3.40GHz * 2GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 560 Ti
Cameras: Canon XF300 + PowerShot SX50HS Bridge


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John Rofrano
Re: Render settings
on Jul 20, 2018 at 12:00:31 pm

[Graham Bernard] "Mr Peter “Hobbit” Jackson did shoot in 2x24fps ie 48fps and you’ve all seen the difference. "
That is true. Going from 24 to 48fps is definitely a difference; the smoother motion is noticeable. Going from 25 to 50fps is probably noticeable too. I'm in NTSC land and 30 fps is already soother than 24 or 25 so going from 30 to 60fps is not as noticeable which is why I still shoot at 30 and only use 60 when I'm shooting fast moving scenes like motor sports. Following a LeMans race car at 200MPH @ 60fps vs 30fps is a big difference in smoothness. Shooting talking heads using 60fps vs 30fps is imperceptible. I've seen people shoot interviews at 60fps and IMHO it's a waste of frames and bandwidth.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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Dirk Wellekens
Re: Render settings
on Jul 20, 2018 at 8:13:02 pm

So, if I understand correctly: for, let's say holiday movies, landscapes,..., 25fps is to be preferred over 50fps (because of more or less equal quality, but lower bandwith) and 25fps means 50i rather than 25p. Is that a correct conclusion?


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Graham Bernard
Re: Render settings
on Jul 21, 2018 at 6:51:13 am

[Dirk Wellekens] "So, if I understand correctly: for, let's say holiday movies, landscapes,..., 25fps is to be preferred over 50fps (because of more or less equal quality, but lower bandwith)"
And if your holiday included an excursion to Le Man or the INDY500? I'm being obdurate on purpose. You choose the FPS for the job in hand. And as you've asked the question again - no problem with that - I felt that you may have needed further "validation". You pick the TOOL for the job.

* Grazie

Video Content Creator and Potter
PC 7 64-bit 16gb * Intel® Core™i7-2600k Quad Core 3.40GHz * 2GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 560 Ti
Cameras: Canon XF300 + PowerShot SX50HS Bridge


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John Rofrano
Re: Render settings
on Jul 21, 2018 at 5:16:24 pm
Last Edited By John Rofrano on Jul 21, 2018 at 5:19:53 pm

[Graham Bernard] "And if your holiday included an excursion to Le Man or the INDY500?"
Actually I was referring to IMSA racing which include the 24 Hrs of Le Mans but specifically I was referring to the GT Le Mans (GTLM) class of cars which race only 1.5 hrs from my house at Lime Rock Park in Lakeville, CT USA where the Northeast Grand Prix takes place each year. So I have shot these cars and they go by fast!. ;-)

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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John Rofrano
Re: Render settings
on Jul 21, 2018 at 5:04:45 pm

[Dirk Wellekens] "So, if I understand correctly: for, let's say holiday movies, landscapes,..., 25fps is to be preferred over 50fps (because of more or less equal quality, but lower bandwith) and 25fps means 50i rather than 25p. Is that a correct conclusion?"
Yes, that is how I would make best use of the various frame rates.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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Dirk Wellekens
Re: Render settings
on Jul 21, 2018 at 5:44:36 pm

OK. That is clear. Thanks a lot.


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Dirk Wellekens
Re: Render settings
on Jul 22, 2018 at 7:46:14 am

One final thought: it feels a bit odd that the preferred way to film with a modern camcorder (for this particular case) is based on a method (interlaced) that is actually obsolete and no longer used in modern playback (tv's, computer screens,...). If the interlaced mode can be considered as such an intelligent/efficient compression mode, why was it abandoned and is it no longer an option, while it nevertheless remains one of the options in state-of-the-art camcorders. Any comments about that?


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John Rofrano
Re: Render settings
on Jul 22, 2018 at 7:54:49 pm

[Dirk Wellekens] "it feels a bit odd that the preferred way to film with a modern camcorder (for this particular case) is based on a method (interlaced) that is actually obsolete and no longer used in modern playback (tv's, computer screens,...)."
Most people shoot progressive these days because there is no reason to shoot interlaced now that modern TV sets support progressive display (as long as you own a modern TV and are sure that everyone who wants to watch your video has a modern TV). So I wouldn't say that interlaced is the preferred way. It's just very popular because it's been around a long time and is widely supported. (kind of... if it ain't broke, why fix it?)

As I said, 50i is smoother than 25p even though they are both 25 fps. If you want to shoot progressive and get the same smoothness, shoot 50p.
[Dirk Wellekens] "If the interlaced mode can be considered as such an intelligent/efficient compression mode, why was it abandoned and is it no longer an option"
Interlacing is not compatible with digital computer screens where "computer" includes cell phones, tablets, and just about any display that isn't a TV. If you are shooting for delivery on YouTube then you should be shooting progressive. If you're shooting for broadcast TV then interlaced is more widely compatible.
[Dirk Wellekens] "... while it nevertheless remains one of the options in state-of-the-art camcorders. Any comments about that?"
Two words:

Backward compatibility!

Cameras still support it for the same reason that all cable TV providers still support SD stations even though the same station is broadcast in HD. There are lots of old TV sets still in use and the broadcast industry is very proud of backward compatibility. Color TV was 100% comparable with Black & White TV. No one had to buy new equipment. Compromises were made to ensure backward compatibility and we are still paying for those trade-offs today. Why did HDV use standard DV tape? Backward compatibility. They had to compromise the bit rate to fit on SD tape but no one wants to through out everything they have to move to something new.

I don't own a 4K TV, I don't own a 4K camera, and I could care less about 4K because my family still watches SD channels on our HD TV! (which are reduced to a postage stamp in the middle of the screen because they are both letter boxed and pillar boxed but that doesn't seem to bother them ¯\_(ツ)_/¯) I bought a few Blu-ray discs until I realized that the kids can't watch them in the car on our DVD player so I went back to buying DVD's again and it's really hard to tell the difference between Blu-ray and DVD on anything smaller than a 32" TV. Now everyone is watching movies on a 6" phone! Quality no longer matters at that point.

Every new TV must support interlacing but the reverse is not true... old TV's do not support progressing and there is plenty of interlaced equipment still out there and camera manufacturers and broadcasters will be supporting it for many years to come. Just like the NTSC frame rate is 29.976 instead of 30 fps because of technology limitations from the 1920's (almost 100 years ago!!!). Outdated compromises that will be with us forever because of the strong desire for backward compatibility.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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