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fcp to ae cs 5 color differences

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Kevin Reevesfcp to ae cs 5 color differences
by on Oct 22, 2010 at 7:13:27 pm

Hey all, so ive been pulling my hair out reading article after article about color spaces in after effects yet i still cannot manage to get the result i need. My ultimate goal is to be able to use after effects to help with the shows we do in either avid or final cut pro but i have yet to be able to bring in a clip from avid/final cut and have the color stay the same on our scope. This morning i took a 1920x1080 apple pro res 422 QT which i made in final cut, double checked it on the scope, brought it into after effects and set my working color space to be HDTV (REC709) and it seems that after effects is still manipulating the color, more specifically its clipping the blacks. Any ideas of what i am missing? I didnt do anything to this clip in after effects except import it and changed the project settings to be HDTV(rec709). Thanks for any tips.

kevin

Kevin Reeves
kevin@kappastudios.com
http://www.kappastudios.com


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Walter SoykaRe: fcp to ae cs 5 color differences
by on Oct 22, 2010 at 7:20:12 pm

[Kevin Reeves] "This morning i took a 1920x1080 apple pro res 422 QT which i made in final cut, double checked it on the scope, brought it into after effects and set my working color space to be HDTV (REC709) and it seems that after effects is still manipulating the color, more specifically its clipping the blacks. Any ideas of what i am missing? I didnt do anything to this clip in after effects except import it and changed the project settings to be HDTV(rec709). Thanks for any tips."

How are you rendering video out of After Effects? How are you monitoring the shift?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Kevin ReevesRe: fcp to ae cs 5 color differences
by on Oct 22, 2010 at 7:30:50 pm

I am rendering using these (1920x1080 QT apple pro res 422, rec709 color space)

We have a kona 3 card hooked up to a blackmagic ultra scope

Ill bring the rendered QT from after effects and place it in final cut right next to the clip that the original color bars QT was made from (full circle) and ill frame step back and forth and watch the black levels change.

Kevin Reeves
kevin@kappastudios.com
http://www.kappastudios.com


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Dave LaRondeRe: fcp to ae cs 5 color differences
by on Oct 22, 2010 at 7:39:53 pm

Well, here's a quote from Walter Soyka, a man who knows his colors, gamma and FCP:

"After importing the item [into FCP], select it in the browser, hit Cmd-9 to pull up item properties, right-click on the gamma value (defaults to Source) and select 2.20."

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Kevin ReevesRe: fcp to ae cs 5 color differences
by on Oct 22, 2010 at 7:55:10 pm

I read that earlier and for some reason fcp will not let me change that setting, and actually there is no value for the gamma.

To clarify the colors arent being stretched or pulled on my scope, its just that the blacks are being clipped.

Kevin Reeves
kevin@kappastudios.com
http://www.kappastudios.com


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Dave LaRondeRe: fcp to ae cs 5 color differences
by on Oct 22, 2010 at 7:58:32 pm

[Kevin Reeves] "for some reason fcp will not let me change that setting"

To double-check, you're highlighting clip in FCP's BROWSER and not in the timeline, correct?

I've also noticed that FCP can behave strangely if the media in the browser was recently in a different application that's been left open. You may have to quit AE.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Kevin ReevesRe: fcp to ae cs 5 color differences
by on Oct 22, 2010 at 8:13:59 pm

That is correct I selected it in the browser, command-9 and tried to select gamma but will not give me an option or an area to add a value.

I closed after effects and restarted fcp and it still will not let me change it.

I am curious because when i am in after effects, i use the kona 3 card to go to an external monitor as well as our blackmagic scope and i am seeing the blacks (more specifically the super black) being clipped there, before i even export. Makes me wonder if it is still a fcp gamma issue

Kevin Reeves
kevin@kappastudios.com
http://www.kappastudios.com


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Walter SoykaRe: fcp to ae cs 5 color differences
by on Oct 22, 2010 at 8:25:28 pm

I think that the gamma setting is only available for RGB formats (like the Animation codec) -- and this doesn't sound like a gamma issue to me. If it were, you should be seeing shifts across the entire tonal range.

ProRes is 10-bit, but After Effects defaults to 8-bit processing. If you switch your project to 16 or 32 bpc and re-render, do you still see the clipped blacks?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Kevin ReevesRe: fcp to ae cs 5 color differences
by on Oct 22, 2010 at 8:34:14 pm

Yes i just tried that and it is still clipping the black. This is bizzare

Kevin Reeves
kevin@kappastudios.com
http://www.kappastudios.com


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Dave LaRondeRe: fcp to ae cs 5 color differences
by on Oct 22, 2010 at 8:38:07 pm

Here's a thought: import that clip destined for AE back into FCP and see if there's been a color change.
If there is, it throws suspicion on that Blackmagic card's setup.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Kevin ReevesRe: fcp to ae cs 5 color differences
by on Oct 22, 2010 at 8:43:16 pm

Nope no change at all, it has to be some color setting in after effects that i am missing.

Kevin Reeves
kevin@kappastudios.com
http://www.kappastudios.com


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Chris WrightRe: fcp to ae cs 5 color differences
by on Oct 23, 2010 at 12:44:45 am

is output module set at are you using h709 or 709 235?
did you fix your interpretations for prores in AE with the funky text file edit?

http://technicolorsoftware.hostzi.com/


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Walter SoykaRe: fcp to ae cs 5 color differences
by on Oct 24, 2010 at 7:30:56 pm

[Kevin Reeves] "Ill bring the rendered QT from after effects and place it in final cut right next to the clip that the original color bars QT was made from (full circle) and ill frame step back and forth and watch the black levels change."

So you're round-tripping color bars -- are you seeing shadows clipped, or just super-blacks? I have had no problems round-tripping a few ProRes clips with FCP and AE CS5, but they had already been legalized. I haven't tried with super-black or super-white.

After Effects can see super-black when processing in float (32 bpc), but getting them back out to FCP is a challenge. Negative RGB values will be preserved by rendering to floating point TIFF or PSD sequences, but Quicktime Player doesn't do 32-bit image sequences, and Compressor clips them.

Chris mentioned Rec. 709 16-235 -- this might be your best bet for preserving super-black. You'd have to expand it back in FCP with a color correction filter.

CS5 has the proper interpretation rules for ProRes -- it's CS3 and CS4 that require manually editing the interpretation file.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Chris WrightRe: fcp to ae cs 5 color differences
by on Oct 24, 2010 at 7:55:45 pm

unfortunately, there's still a load of problems in cs5, see adobe's post
and yes, legal broadcast standards get rendered in 16-235, that's why your gamma goes all over the place.

http://blogs.adobe.com/toddkopriva/2010/05/prores-4444-and-prores-422-in.ht...

http://technicolorsoftware.hostzi.com/


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Walter SoykaRe: fcp to ae cs 5 color differences
by on Oct 24, 2010 at 8:15:42 pm

True, but I wouldn't say that there are loads of problems. There are two, and one of them is actually an AJA issue.

But neither of these sound like Kevin's problem. He's seeing clipped blacks, not radically distorted colors (the AJA ProRes 422 bug) or missing alpha information (the ProRes 4444 bug). I think the root of Kevin's problem is in the YUV > RGB > YUV transformation.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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