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24 fps footage yet every 5th frame is a duplicate

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Dale Hildebrand
24 fps footage yet every 5th frame is a duplicate
on Sep 5, 2010 at 10:17:15 pm

Hi,

I have a planet earth sequence that came out of cinema 4D. The planet is a TIFF sequence. I also have a star field in the BG - also a TIFF sequence. There are also a number of flair layers.

Brought both the star field and planet into After effects, though there were some settings that were off at first. The comp was 23.976 instead of 24 and the subsequent nest some how ended up at 30 fps. Obviously my mistake for overlooking this at first. Problem was noticed when I scrubbed through or rendered out that every 3rd or 4th frame was a duplicate.

I then went in and changed or confirmed that all items and comps were set at 24 fps (comp settings and interpret footage). Problem is, now when I scrub through or render out every 5th frame is a duplicate. It's like a pull-down issue, but again, everything was from a TIFF sequence, there was never any interlaced footage.

Any suggestions as to how I could rectify this would be greatly appreciated. This is starting to age me.

Cheers,
Dale


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Chris Wright
Re: 24 fps footage yet every 5th frame is a duplicate
on Sep 5, 2010 at 10:24:52 pm

did you pre-render anything? and you might have overlooked something in a huge project such as that. every single comp has to be fixed, use a comp setter script and see where the bug is.

http://technicolorsoftware.hostzi.com/


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Dale Hildebrand
Re: 24 fps footage yet every 5th frame is a duplicate
on Sep 6, 2010 at 1:34:48 am

No, I did not pre-render. Also, tried a comp setter (though have to admit I don't know much about them)but it did not change the situation.



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Steve Roberts
Re: 24 fps footage yet every 5th frame is a duplicate
on Sep 6, 2010 at 1:35:57 am

Could it have something to do with the fact that AE naturally interprets still sequences at 30 fps?



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Dale Hildebrand
Re: 24 fps footage yet every 5th frame is a duplicate
on Sep 6, 2010 at 2:05:30 am

Interesting, though that does seem an odd limitation or bug. From what I can recall, my past experience has been that 24fps plays out at 24fps.



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Steve Roberts
Re: 24 fps footage yet every 5th frame is a duplicate
on Sep 6, 2010 at 3:57:55 am

It's a default.
Since a still sequence has no frame rate flag (unlike a video clip), AE has to pick something for it, and it picks 30.



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Dale Hildebrand
Re: 24 fps footage yet every 5th frame is a duplicate
on Sep 6, 2010 at 11:42:06 am

Yes, you are right. So any thoughts on how to deal with my predicament?



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Walter Soyka
Re: 24 fps footage yet every 5th frame is a duplicate
on Sep 6, 2010 at 12:35:08 pm

Use Interpret footage to change the assumed frame rate of the footage.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Dale Hildebrand
Re: 24 fps footage yet every 5th frame is a duplicate
on Sep 6, 2010 at 1:03:50 pm

Yes, I did Interpret footage to change the assumed frame rate of the footage. In fact I tried 30 fps, 24 fps, 23.98 and 23.976. When doing each of these I changed both the composition settings as well as interpret footage. Same problem every time - frame doubles every fifth frame.

I should point out though, I have several solid layers with flairs (sun and sun flairs) - all of these layers keep moving with the proper cadence (no 5th frame duplication).



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Walter Soyka
Re: 24 fps footage yet every 5th frame is a duplicate
on Sep 6, 2010 at 1:23:51 pm

[Dale Hildebrand] "In fact I tried 30 fps, 24 fps, 23.98 and 23.976... Same problem every time - frame doubles every fifth frame."

Are you sure the duplicated frames don't exist in the footage? If all the comp frame rates in AE match the source footage consistently, AE shouldn't be introducing any frame duplication.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Dale Hildebrand
Re: 24 fps footage yet every 5th frame is a duplicate
on Sep 6, 2010 at 2:07:56 pm

Good question. The "Earth sequence" for example came out of cinema 4D where the project settings were 24fps. I exported a series of TIFFs from there, these TIFFs were in turn imported into AE. In AE as Steve pointed out, they were automatically imported at 30fps. I then interpreted to 23.976. Does the duplicate frame exist because of the original 30fps import, I don't know. It's not like interpret fixes the problem and I can't see how pulldown removal would help for there is no upper and lower field - it's just a series of stills.



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Walter Soyka
Re: 24 fps footage yet every 5th frame is a duplicate
on Sep 6, 2010 at 2:39:48 pm

If you double-click on the footage in the Project panel, you can step through it frame by frame with PgDn and PgUp in the Footage Viewer. If you see duplicated frames here (regardless of what frame rate AE is interpreting), then there are duplicate frames in the render. This might also explain why you were seeing extra duplicated frames when the media was interpreted at 24 fps in a 30 fps sequence.

If you do not see duplicate frames here, then there is still a mismatch somewhere. AE should only be duplicating every fourth frame when your media is 24 fps and your comp is 30 fps.

As a test, if you re-import the footage, interpret it at 24fps, then drop it in a new 24fps sequence, do you still see the duplication?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Dave LaRonde
Re: 24 fps footage yet every 5th frame is a duplicate
on Sep 7, 2010 at 2:24:18 pm

I'm not so sure this footage was created properly in C4D in the first place.

In Final Cut Pro, 23.976 can be placed into a 29.97 edit timeline. When that happens, the field count goes like this: 2-2-2-4. The fourth frame gets duplicated.

It seems like the assumption has been, "well, the original footage's frame rate is right". I have my doubts, and I think a close examination of the settings in C4D would help eliminate one possible problem, although it's a remote possibility.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Dale Hildebrand
Re: 24 fps footage yet every 5th frame is a duplicate
on Sep 7, 2010 at 3:20:26 pm

I've discovered that the star field was the culprit. It is duplicating the 4th frame = the fifth frame is a duplicate. For some reason it was making the planet move have the same cadence. Planet is now fixed. Unfortunately the star field was built by someone else so don't have the source. Hopefully I can track it down and get this sorted out soon.



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Chris Wright
Re: 24 fps footage yet every 5th frame is a duplicate
on Sep 7, 2010 at 7:54:34 pm

1. you can custom decimate the extra 4th frame then reconstitute a
new pattern using virtualdub's decimate feature,

2. enable time remapping then use this expression to remove every bad frame. This one is set at removing every 13th frame. I don't know what your length from one bad frame to the next is, so edit f/12.

f = timeToFrames();
n = Math.floor(f/12);
framesToTime(n+f);

then simply put it in a new comp or re-render out and re-interpret it in AE again tweaking timestretch, compressor, twixtor, timewarp, for furthur use if desired.

http://technicolorsoftware.hostzi.com/


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Mike Gottschalk
Re: 24 fps footage yet every 5th frame is a duplicate
on Jul 11, 2011 at 4:05:05 am

Chris Wright, you and your expression are my hero. This saved me such a hassle with some 5th frame duplicate footage. I just changed the 12 to a 5 here:

f = timeToFrames();
n = Math.floor(f/5);
framesToTime(n+f);

But did I simply luck out that it removed the correct frame each time? What if my footage was 1-2-2-3-4-5 etc. ? Can I offset which of the n frames gets removed?

Huge thanks again,
Mike Gottschalk



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Mike Gottschalk
Re: 24 fps footage yet every 5th frame is a duplicate
on Jul 11, 2011 at 7:04:38 am

Well, I just got to another sequence with the same duplicate fifth frame issue—but this time with a different cadence. I added one frame to the expression, and it worked. I think I lucked out again, but I'm guessing you can add one, two, three, four, or five frames until the pattern works when you step through the footage. Here's the one that worked for me:

f = timeToFrames();
n = Math.floor(f/5);
framesToTime(n+f+1);

Note the added frame at the last line ( "+1" ) to get the cadence right, in this case.

—Mike



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