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converting 23.976 to 1080/60i

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Yorgo Alexopoulosconverting 23.976 to 1080/60i
by on Aug 30, 2010 at 8:36:31 pm

Hello,

I have a client that has asked me to deliver uncompressed QuickTime at 1080/60i. The project is all stuff made in after effect; mainly camera moves on photographs. I have set everything up at 1920x1080 at 23.976 fps. I rendered everything at 29.976 using a 3;2 pulldown - they are telling me there is a slight stutter... Am I not doing this correctly? Isn't 60i really mean 29.976 interlaced? Any thoughts on how I might re render all of this or do I need to go into all the projects and make the compositions 30fps?

thanks
Yorgo


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Dave LaRondeRe: converting 23.976 to 1080/60i
by on Aug 30, 2010 at 9:11:20 pm

[Yorgo Alexopoulos] "...I have set everything up at 1920x1080 at 23.976 fps. I rendered everything at 29.976 using a 3;2 pulldown - they are telling me there is a slight stutter... "

First, let's get the frame rate correct. Your AE Comp should be at 23.976, not 29.976. When you add the comp to the render queue, go to the Render Settings for the comp and add the 3:2 pulldown there. There is a drop-down selection for it: choose any of the five patterns, they are all fine. Finally, select Upper Field First for the field order, which is also in the render settings.

AE will then render a 29.97 file from the 23.976 comp in the proper field order for 1080i.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Yorgo AlexopoulosRe: converting 23.976 to 1080/60i
by on Aug 30, 2010 at 9:29:42 pm

Dave,

Thanks for the response. I do have everything set up the way you said:
My comps are set up as follows:
1920x1080
23.976 fps
I am pre rendering an image sequence (PNG) at 23.976 then re-rendering the sequence with a 3;2 pulldown as follows (and I am also making sure that the sequence is interpreted at 23.976 in my project before the re-render):

Render setting:
1920x1080
3;2 pulldown
wsswww

My final is a 1920x1080 uncompressed QuickTime at 29.976fps

is this not a 1080/60i movie? I thought it was? and they are saying it is slightly stuttering...


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Dave LaRondeRe: converting 23.976 to 1080/60i
by on Aug 30, 2010 at 9:34:01 pm

What is the FIELD ORDER when you do this? For 1080, it must be Upper Field First. If you have it set to None or Lower Field First, there will be problems.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Yorgo AlexopoulosRe: converting 23.976 to 1080/60i
by on Aug 30, 2010 at 9:39:12 pm

Dave -


I rendered it Lower Field first... I bet that is the problem!! I'll re-render upper and see if that solves. it thanks. Just a quick note... when I am asked for 1080/60i movies as long as I'm delivering 1920x1080 rendered upper field at 29.976 fps I am good to go?

Best,
Yorgo


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Dave LaRondeRe: converting 23.976 to 1080/60i
by on Aug 30, 2010 at 9:58:14 pm

[Yorgo Alexopoulos] "when I am asked for 1080/60i movies as long as I'm delivering 1920x1080 rendered upper field at 29.976 fps I am good to go?"

That depends entirely on the frame rate you are expected to deliver.

23.976 is a FILM frame rate. 60i is a VIDEO frame rate. Motion is different at these two rates.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_rate

I find it difficult to believe that people actually get jobs from paying customers without this basic knowledge.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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George AlexopoulosRe: converting 23.976 to 1080/60i
by on Aug 30, 2010 at 11:40:36 pm

Yeah - I was never able to get final deliver specs outta them at the start so I just set everything up the way they had it in their offline edit (23.976) and figured I'd just 3;2 pulldown it if I needed to finish at 29.98... There is a better "film" look I get when I produce things at 23.976 or 24fps rather than starting out at 30fps

thanks for all your help today.


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Walter SoykaRe: converting 23.976 to 1080/60i
by on Aug 30, 2010 at 9:23:25 pm

[Yorgo Alexopoulos] "have a client that has asked me to deliver uncompressed QuickTime at 1080/60i. The project is all stuff made in after effect; mainly camera moves on photographs. I have set everything up at 1920x1080 at 23.976 fps. I rendered everything at 29.976 using a 3;2 pulldown - they are telling me there is a slight stutter... "

Follow Dave's advice to the letter if they are expecting to receive 24p with pulldown for their 60i.

However, if they were expecting to receive 60i, it may be that 24p frame rate that they're not happy with, and pull-down will not make the lower temporal resolution of 24p go away.

To get real, native 60i versions (not 24p with pull-down), simply create new comps at 1920x1080 / 29.97 fps. Drop your 1920x1080 / 23.976 comp into the 29.97 comp.

Make sure that none of the comps have "Preserve frame rate when nested" checked in their advanced composition settings, and make sure you turn on field rendering for output.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Yorgo AlexopoulosRe: converting 23.976 to 1080/60i
by on Aug 30, 2010 at 9:43:40 pm

Thanks Walter...

I'll try what you both suggest. So, is 1080/60i need to be 29.97 (exactly) or is 29.976 still appropriate for 1080/60i delivery?

also - if I do what you suggest would it not be cleaner to go into all the comps individually and reset them to 29.97fps and move the keyframes into place? I am afraid that by just dropping in 23.976 comps into a 29.97 comp might create issues with the movement of elements?

thanks
Yorgo


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Walter SoykaRe: converting 23.976 to 1080/60i
by on Aug 30, 2010 at 10:53:35 pm

There are two frame rates we're discussing. 23.976, and 29.97.

29.976 is NOT a standard frame rate.

There's no need to manually adjust all your keyframes. The procedure I outlined above will allow After Effects to smoothly and automatically re-interpret your animation at 29.97 fps (provided that you have no video footage).

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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George AlexopoulosRe: converting 23.976 to 1080/60i
by on Aug 30, 2010 at 11:34:06 pm

thanks walter - will do.


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