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CS5 is still wrong!!!!!!!!

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Chris Reynolds
CS5 is still wrong!!!!!!!!
on May 20, 2010 at 3:26:36 am

Just installed CS5 and I can't believe that adobe still have the aspect and dimensions wrong. Fine if thats what they believe, but the whole world classes a TV as 16:9. So does every other software package in the world!!!! 1050 x 576 in not 16:9. This completely stuffs us up for pulling anything into our online suites. You can't even add your own pixel aspect of 1.42. This is just MAD!!!!!!

Cheers, Chris


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Kazumi Hatori
Re: CS5 is still wrong!!!!!!!!
on May 20, 2010 at 5:33:07 am

I think there is a more user-friendly to do that,
i.e. keeping both ratio to choose / new or old value switching in preference


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Dave LaRonde
Re: CS5 is still wrong!!!!!!!!
on May 20, 2010 at 4:35:03 pm

[Kazumi Hatori] "i.e. keeping both ratio to choose / new or old value switching in preference "

You know, that is an EXCELLENT idea! I say since it's your idea, you should submit it to Adobe as a Feature Request:

https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform

If you hurry, they just might be able to incorporate it into the AE 10.0.2 upgrade...

...by the way, that upgrade I just mentioned is total fiction on my part. I have NO clue when such a thing may become reality.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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adam taylor
Re: CS5 is still wrong!!!!!!!!
on May 20, 2010 at 8:12:22 am

You are forgetting pixel aspect ratio - depending upon how you create your 16:9 will mean you have many options regarding the shape of the individual pixels. Some people work with square shaped pixels, others with rectangular pixels.

Its a bit early in the morning to be sure, and i've not had my caffeine yet, but basically i think tvs use rectangular pixels, and computer screens use square ones.

I believe you are looking at a square pixel version of a 16:9 image. If you needed to work for tv, then you'd pick a format that is non-square, and actually has a lower number on the x axis - being rectangular you need less of them to fill the same space.

Also a few months back, i read an article by adobe that highlighted a miscalculation that had been used by the entire industry for years and had lead to everyone working with dimensions that were actually wrong. Only by a few pixels here and there, but wrong nonetheless.

Thats probably why the numbers are not quite what you expected them to be. In fact, they are probably more right than they have ever been. (I may live to regret to regret that last statement if Adobe has got it wrong!!)


Adam Taylor
Video Editor/Audio Mixer/ Compositor/Motion GFX/Barista
Character Options Ltd
Oldham, UK

http://www.sculptedbliss.co.uk


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Bernat Aragones
Re: CS5 is still wrong!!!!!!!!
on May 20, 2010 at 10:40:13 am

Adobe has got it wrong! I completely understand pixel aspect ratios. I have been doing this for long enough to have grey hair and I did start when I was 19. Thats why I use the square pixel example as each pixel is square 1:1. So how does 1050 x 576 equate to 16:9? It doesn't. Regardless of all of this it needs to match up to any finishing system as you can't master out of after FX. So anything you do in after FX unless in HD will not simply import into Flame, Smoke, Quantel, Avid DS FCP and so on. Next thing Adobe will tell us is that HD is accually 1955 x 1080!!

Rant over, Chris


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Chris Reynolds
Re: CS5 is still wrong!!!!!!!!
on May 20, 2010 at 10:40:57 am

Adobe has got it wrong! I completely understand pixel aspect ratios. I have been doing this for long enough to have grey hair and I did start when I was 19. Thats why I use the square pixel example as each pixel is square 1:1. So how does 1050 x 576 equate to 16:9? It doesn't. Regardless of all of this it needs to match up to any finishing system as you can't master out of after FX. So anything you do in after FX unless in HD will not simply import into Flame, Smoke, Quantel, Avid DS FCP and so on. Next thing Adobe will tell us is that HD is accually 1955 x 1080!!

Rant over, Chris


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Dave LaRonde
Re: CS5 is still wrong!!!!!!!!
on May 20, 2010 at 4:29:55 pm

[adam taylor] "Its a bit early in the morning to be sure, and i've not had my caffeine yet, but basically i think tvs use rectangular pixels, and computer screens use square ones. "

Well, get yourself a big mug of good, strong joe. If it were that simple, life would be sweet.

Starting with AE 9, Adobe changed the resolutions of comp presets in response from certain TV-production-related companies. The reason: to make the comp sizes reflect what IN REALITY goes on in TV cameras; according to these companies, the original resolutions we've used for years are little more than arbitrary numbers.

Now, there's a big, long explanation for this somewhere (unknown to me), but suffice to say that I still stick by the old standbys. I have enough challenges working with AE that I don't need to fool with new resolutions right now.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Walter Soyka
Re: CS5 is still wrong!!!!!!!!
on May 20, 2010 at 1:45:28 pm

The BBC agrees with Adobe -- they have specified 16:9 as 1050x576 square pixels.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Gary Hazen
Re: CS5 is still wrong!!!!!!!!
on May 20, 2010 at 2:54:10 pm

Yes, the BCC managed to convince Adobe to correct the pixel dimensions. Chris' point is that all the other developers are using the same dimensions that have served the industry for a very long time. Will the others change? I doubt it. I don't understand changing the specs on a format that's fading away (standard def). This is like changing the harness used for a horse drawn carriage during the dawn of the automobile. Why bother?

At the end of the day the difference between the old 16:9 dimensions and the new 16:9 dimensions is so small no will notice if you use the wrong dimension. Well, no one except the uptight tea sippers at the BBC.

Fortunately HD is square pixels so everyone will be on the same page.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: CS5 is still wrong!!!!!!!!
on May 20, 2010 at 3:51:32 pm

The reasons why Adobe changed pixel aspect ratios and comp presets beginning in AE 9 still apply in AE 10. If you want to work in the old standby resolutions, ain't nothin' stoppin' you. It's just not as automatic as it once was.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Todd Kopriva
Re: CS5 is still wrong!!!!!!!!
on May 20, 2010 at 10:28:25 pm

Apple made the same fix in Final Cut Pro recently:
http://blogs.adobe.com/toddkopriva/2010/01/final-cut-pro-7-using-correcte.h...

We made the change because many companies (including makers of other video software) asked us to. It was the right thing to do. Here's my summary.

You can always keep using the old, wrong numbers if you like.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
putting the 'T' back in 'RTFM' : After Effects Help on the Web
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If a page of After Effects Help answers your question, please consider rating it. If you have a tip, technique, or link to share---or if there is something that you'd like to see added or improved---please leave a comment.


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cowcow
Chris Reynolds
Re: CS5 is still wrong!!!!!!!!
on May 20, 2010 at 10:31:27 pm

Unfortunately it is not that simple. I wish it was. Any footage that you import has to have a pixel aspect attached to it. So it you work with a comp that is 1024 x 576 which we do so it works with the rest of the suits. Then you have to manually scale every clip that you throw into that comp to fit.

If both Adobe and BBC think they have it that right then how do you fit a 1920 x 1080 (which is 16:9) into a 1050 x 576 comp. It doesn't fit they are two different sizes. So even in there own program you to manually adjust the scale on the x or y axis to fit the footage.

So Adobe which one is correct. 1920 x 1080 or your 1050 x 1024?

Cheers, Chris



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Todd Kopriva
Re: CS5 is still wrong!!!!!!!!
on May 20, 2010 at 11:47:59 pm

If you've read through the resources that I point to (especially this one, and especially its last page) and still have specific questions about how to work with the new aspect ratios, I'd be happy to help.

One thing to keep in mind is the difference between production aperture and clean aperture: not every pixel that comes off the camera is usable image; some of it is padding to be cropped away. The mistake that was made back in the 90s when the wrong numbers were perpetuated was that the folks doing the math didn't recognize that. And we've had slight mismatches and subtle distortions ever since. Until we fixed it.

BTW, I already posted the article that says that Apple made the change, too. Now here's a thread that mentions that the Foundry made the change in Nuke:
http://www.vfxtalk.com/forum/nuke-5-1v6-wrong-pal-aspect-ratio-t20709.html?...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
putting the 'T' back in 'RTFM' : After Effects Help on the Web
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If a page of After Effects Help answers your question, please consider rating it. If you have a tip, technique, or link to share---or if there is something that you'd like to see added or improved---please leave a comment.


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Chris Reynolds
Re: CS5 is still wrong!!!!!!!!
on May 21, 2010 at 12:15:53 am

Thats fine but it still makes our life harder as every online tool still has the pixel aspect set to 1.42. And you still haven't answered my question as to which one is right

1920 x 1080 or 1050 x 576 as they don't match up!!! Make it a preference if you have too.

Software is about ease of use!! Not having to manually scale objects in the x and y to fit comps. As we are in the cross over period for the last couple and probably the next couple of year we are constantly working with both SD and HD. As a graphics artist they preferred pixel aspect ratio of 1:1 hence why we work at 1024 x 576 in SD. If I make a circle at 1024 x 576 and pull it into any of my online suits which we have all been doing for the past 15years it look like a circle. That is with operators who have a train eye. We have broadcast monitors in all those suites along with plasmas. So if we can't tell the how one earth is the public going to tell. I even measured the circle with a ruler and it is a perfect circle. So one again please explain? I am not some student at home who has a cracked version of FCP. I own a post house and have been working with every software package that exists for post production for a long time. One of the most important things it having a standard, and Adobe has just broken that.

Cheers, Chris





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Chris Reynolds
Re: CS5 is still wrong!!!!!!!!
on May 21, 2010 at 12:17:24 am

Thats fine but it still makes our life harder as every online tool still has the pixel aspect set to 1.42. And you still haven't answered my question as to which one is right

1920 x 1080 or 1050 x 576 as they don't match up!!! Make it a preference if you have too.

Software is about ease of use!! Not having to manually scale objects in the x and y to fit comps. As we are in the cross over period for the last couple and probably the next couple of year we are constantly working with both SD and HD. As a graphics artist they preferred pixel aspect ratio of 1:1 hence why we work at 1024 x 576 in SD. If I make a circle at 1024 x 576 and pull it into any of my online suits which we have all been doing for the past 15years it look like a circle. That is with operators who have a train eye. We have broadcast monitors in all those suites along with plasmas. So if we can't tell the how one earth is the public going to tell. I even measured the circle with a ruler and it is a perfect circle. So one again please explain? I am not some student at home who has FCP on his Imac. I own a post house and have been working with every software package that exists for post production for a long time. One of the most important things it having a standard, and Adobe has just broken that.

Cheers, Chris



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Dave LaRonde
Re: CS5 is still wrong!!!!!!!!
on May 21, 2010 at 3:13:22 pm

[Chris Reynolds] "Software is about ease of use!!"

Unfortunately, video is not. Consider for a moment the old-style resolutions in SD and HD:
  • 720x480
  • 720x486
  • 720x576
  • 640x480
  • 1280x720
  • 960x720
  • 1920x1080
  • 1440x1080

I submit that a lot of the confusion arises from the efforts of camera manufacturers, always trying to shove ten pounds of a vile, stinky brown substance into a five-pound bag.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Erik Lindahl
Re: CS5 is still wrong!!!!!!!!
on May 21, 2010 at 3:23:25 pm

I'd agree with the fact that even if "we've been working wrong" - so what, SD is going out and HD is coming in - why fix something that isn't broke?

A transition like this should have an easy built in toggle to say the least. I even talk with one of the rep's at IBC last year about this and he hinting "things might change in AE CS5" and that a HUGE number of people where complaining about the new, odd, standard (be it more correct or not, it just makes life complicated).

In PAL-land things have been easy:
- 720x576 pixles is the base image. 4x3 square pixles = 768x576, 16x9 square pixles = 1024x576.

In PAL-HD land things are bit more complex but still rel. easy:
- 1280x720 and 1920x1080 25 or 50p or 50i are the base resolutions, square pixles no fuss
- Some formats are anamorphic and might thus use 960x720 or 1440x1080 pixles.

Adding the 1050x576 and god know what to the 4x3 PAL aspect is just confusing. As the poster has noted, does this also affect non-square HD-formats? Main thing is most post-workflows rely on the 1024 standard. PLEASE make this an option in CS5.

------------------------
Erik Lindahl
Freecloud Post Production Services
http://www.freecloud.se


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Dave LaRonde
Re: CS5 is still wrong!!!!!!!!
on May 21, 2010 at 3:42:29 pm

[Erik Lindahl] "PLEASE make this an option in CS5. "

Well then, if this is really important to you, don't rely on a plea in a thread to get through to Adobe when they already have a built-in mechanism for this very thing: fill out a Feature Request.
https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform

The more requests they get, the harder they think about it: the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

I don't know ANYONE at Adobe who has ever bitten me... and I'm known to say unkind things about the company from time to time.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Erik Lindahl
Re: CS5 is still wrong!!!!!!!!
on May 21, 2010 at 3:47:13 pm

I did that before, I've had contact with both the national and international support (who sadly came a cross as having zero insight to the problem or what the difference in pixel aspect ratios actually is). The rep at IBC seemed very keen on talking about features like this but I guess after talking to 200 people at a tradeshow something "small" like this might slip through. Sadly this is a major issue (I had a few projects break converting to CS4 before finding a fix).

------------------------
Erik Lindahl
Freecloud Post Production Services
http://www.freecloud.se


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Todd Kopriva
Re: CS5 is still wrong!!!!!!!!
on May 21, 2010 at 4:00:43 pm

> I did that before, I've had contact with both the national and international support (who sadly came a cross as having zero insight to the problem or what the difference in pixel aspect ratios actually is).


Talking to Technical Support or a person (probably a sales person) at a tradeshow isn't the same as submitting a feature request. The people who read the feature request form submissions are the After Effects team, not some distant support or sales folks.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
putting the 'T' back in 'RTFM' : After Effects Help on the Web
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If a page of After Effects Help answers your question, please consider rating it. If you have a tip, technique, or link to share---or if there is something that you'd like to see added or improved---please leave a comment.


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Erik Lindahl
Re: CS5 is still wrong!!!!!!!!
on May 21, 2010 at 4:14:52 pm

I know. It's just a huge change that really can cause head-aches in set workflows and current projects (even future ones since we often have to play ball with other apps).

I just submitted a file again. To a degree I'd classify it as a bug since the new standard can totally ruin footage with the old 1024x576 standards. Esp. complex projects with a lot of comps with pre-comps and footage with 1024x576 square footage.

------------------------
Erik Lindahl
Freecloud Post Production Services
http://www.freecloud.se


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Todd Kopriva
Re: CS5 is still wrong!!!!!!!!
on May 21, 2010 at 3:50:36 pm

> why fix something that isn't broke?

It was broken. (Most) people just didn't notice because the distortions were somewhat minor. But people who were trying to do pixel-perfect post-production work did notice.

As I noted, the Foundry and Apple fixed this as essentially unannounced bug fixes last year. People just focus on Adobe making this change because 1) we did it first and 2) we actually provided a lot of documentation and explanation.

I pointed to several resources in my previous posts that go into a lot of detail about not just why the change was made but _exactly_ how to work with the new numbers. I'm not going to rehash all of those details on this thread, since I'd just be retyping things that I (and Chris Meyer) typed last year and the year before.

If you have a request for how things should be different, please use the feature-request form.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
putting the 'T' back in 'RTFM' : After Effects Help on the Web
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If a page of After Effects Help answers your question, please consider rating it. If you have a tip, technique, or link to share---or if there is something that you'd like to see added or improved---please leave a comment.


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Erik Lindahl
Re: CS5 is still wrong!!!!!!!!
on May 21, 2010 at 4:03:05 pm

I haven't tested CS4 > FCP7 with the new values but the old ones are interpreted as expected and a reply to your previous link states FCP7 doesn't recognize 1050x576 as a native 16x9 PAL file. Might be it does or doesn't, the issue is you "broke" a set standard with out giving us an in-app work-around to go back to what we'd used to use. Editing the out-of-app prefs files in the methods you provide can still make AE interpret files wrong and you manually have to check this every time you import footage or start a new comp. Given this can be an issue in a lot of video-apps it's a far greater one having to rely on 2 different PAL 16x9 standards.

------------------------
Erik Lindahl
Freecloud Post Production Services
http://www.freecloud.se


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