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Filippo Guerra
Export in h264 High10 Profile
on May 14, 2010 at 1:39:16 pm

Is it possible to encode a project in h264 format using the High10 profile? I can choose only High profile, but I would like to use 10 bit depth.
Currently i'm exporting .mov with h264 high, but with some sequences i've stairstepping/banding problems... I think that 10bit may solve the problems...

thanks


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Export in h264 High10 Profile
on May 14, 2010 at 2:27:15 pm

Dave's Stock Answer #3:

Don't use AE to compress files for final delivery. The various compressors are there only to make quick 'n dirty files showing a project's progress to producers, clients, the kids, etc. AE is incapable of doing multipass encoding, a crucial feature that greatly improves the image quality of H.264 and MPEG-type files in particular.

Render a high-quality file from AE, and use a different application to do the compression. Popular ones are Adobe Media Encoder, Sorenson Squeeze and Apple's Compressor, which comes bundled with Final Cut Suite. Even compressing in Quicktime Pro is better than compressing in AE.

Making good-looking compressed files is almost as much an art as it is a science. It is NOT straightforward at all. I recommend asking a few questions at the COW's Compression Techniques forum.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Filippo Guerra
Re: Export in h264 High10 Profile
on May 14, 2010 at 3:19:12 pm

i'm using adobe media encoder. But cannot find the option to use high10 profile....


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Export in h264 High10 Profile
on May 14, 2010 at 3:22:33 pm

Then you might just have to buy a compression application that has it!

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Filippo Guerra
Re: Export in h264 High10 Profile
on May 14, 2010 at 4:11:48 pm

can you suggest me one?


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Walter Soyka
Re: Export in h264 High10 Profile
on May 14, 2010 at 6:41:10 pm

What's the intended use of these files? Will the final display be 10-bit capable?

Banding is a pretty common problem with single-pass or low bit rate encodes. Are you using multi-pass encoding? Can you push your target bit rate or quality setting higher?

Also, the final output is a function of the encoder. I use Apple Compressor, Sorenson Squeeze, Telestream Episode, and Matrox CompressHD, and their h264 encoders all produce different looking outputs, even with comparable encode settings.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Filippo Guerra
Re: Export in h264 High10 Profile
on May 14, 2010 at 7:47:53 pm

The output will be a pc monitor.
I've tried different formata with Adobe media encoder, and the best result is .mov h264, but there's no options for two pass...
With compressor same problem, a lot of banding.
So i' starting to' think that the bit depth is the problem... I've got no banding at all with prores 4444, just a little bit with 422 (hundreds of millions color).
I'm starting to go crazy with that file...
I'll try some of the encoders you Are using...


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Export in h264 High10 Profile
on May 14, 2010 at 8:30:01 pm

[Filippo Guerra] "I've got no banding at all with prores 4444, just a little bit with 422 (hundreds of millions color)"

Well, precisely what do you think happens when you compress something? You toss away information in the image!

I wasn't fooling when I said you might want to ask about this on the COW's Compression Techniques forum. This stuff simply is NOT as cut-and-dried as you apparently think.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Filippo Guerra
Re: Export in h264 High10 Profile
on May 14, 2010 at 9:32:18 pm

Yeah i know, i wrote that just to' say that in the original file there's no banding.

I'll post in the compression forum, maybe it's better....


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Uli Plank
Re: Export in h264 High10 Profile
on May 15, 2010 at 8:41:50 am

If you footage is very clean (computer generated?), adding a little bit of noise can help.

Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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Walter Soyka
Re: Export in h264 High10 Profile
on May 15, 2010 at 3:51:50 pm

[Uli Plank] "If you footage is very clean (computer generated?), adding a little bit of noise can help."

This is a great point -- adding noise to the gradient should help smooth it out some.

It will also force the encoder to spend more bits on it, at the expense of other areas in the image. Like everything in compression, it's a tradeoff, and finding the right balance takes usually some time and effort. You could also do a noise reduction pass on the entire clip, which would free the encoder from spending bits on noise in the subject and let it allocate a few more to the gradient background.

We're still missing some information that could help. I understand that the final display will be a PC monitor, but we don't know anything about the delivery. Web, where file size may be a constraint? Or local playback, where the file size (and bit rate) could be much higher?

I also haven't seen Filippo confirm whether he's using multi-pass encoding, which should help quite a bit. Adding forced keyframes might help a bit, too, at the expense of file size. Again, I'm sure he could find some good help on this in the Compression techniques forum.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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