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linear workflow ?? -- coming from 7D footage

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jonas espinozalinear workflow ?? -- coming from 7D footage
by on Jan 5, 2010 at 6:15:11 pm

hi there, i am finishing a music vid i shot with the 7D.

I always convert my movie files to prores. I guess I could convert them to something else if there is a better option.

now i am probably typical in that by now i have a half baked idea of what linear workflow entails.

in this case, the specifics are foggy.

I export the 7d as prores. import into after effects. turn on 32bpc.

after that, i dont know:

-project settings (ex. HD 709)
-interpretation settings for my 7D prores footage
- out put settings to get out of linear back into gamma 2.2 or whatever for my output to prores. (I am assuming the AE render is where we reintroduce the 2.2 gamma?)

thanks so much - any other suggestions for 7D workflows would be great to hear.





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Dave LaRondeRe: linear workflow ?? -- coming from 7D footage
by on Jan 5, 2010 at 6:35:44 pm

Just one simple, little question: what are you using to EDIT this footage before you begin your AE work? Please don't say you're using After Effects to edit, because that's just about the worst thing you can do.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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jonas espinozaRe: linear workflow ?? -- coming from 7D footage
by on Jan 5, 2010 at 7:18:14 pm

haha, yeah AE is horrible to edit with

using FCP to edit, and spitting out a prores from there. i could use the scripts to export the xml

my main issue is understanding the linear concept.

ive seen a tutorial where a guy goes to linear/hd 709. and i tried it here and it looks ok, but what has to happen after in terms of settings.

i dont understand what settings i need in the output dialog, or if none, in quicktime pro for encoding h264 to keep everything looking right.

right now i out put a test, prores that looks ok, but when i encode a h264 using quicktime pro, the levels go brighter and it looks worse

thanks so much







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Dave LaRondeRe: linear workflow ?? -- coming from 7D footage
by on Jan 5, 2010 at 9:10:12 pm

[jonas espinoza] "my main issue is understanding the linear concept.... ive seen a tutorial where a guy goes to linear/hd 709"

I have no idea what you're talking about.

When I hear the term "linear", I think of the old days when people edited videotape. You edited one shot after another in their final order... in LINEAR fashion. Then nonlinear editors like FCP came along. You can place sound bites, fill in the timeline with B-roll, and in any order you wish.

What do YOU mean by "linear"?

As far as working with ProRes Goes, you might want to read this:
http://blogs.adobe.com/toddkopriva/2009/03/prores-422-colors-in-after-eff.h...

And finally, DO NOT render h.264 from AE.

Dave's Stock Answer #3:

Don't use AE to compress files for final delivery. The various compressors are there only to make quick 'n dirty files showing a project's progress to producers, clients, the kids, etc. AE is incapable of doing multipass encoding, a crucial feature that greatly improves the image quality of H.264 and MPEG-type files in particular.

Render a high-quality file from AE, and use a different application to do the compression. Popular ones are Adobe Media Encoder, Sorenson Squeeze and Apple's Compressor, which comes bundled with Final Cut Suite. Even compressing in Quicktime Pro is better than compressing in AE.

Making good-looking compressed files is almost as much an art as it is a science. It is NOT straightforward at all. I recommend asking a few questions at the COW's Compression Techniques forum.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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jonas espinozaRe: linear workflow ?? -- coming from 7D footage
by on Jan 5, 2010 at 9:29:14 pm

linear in terms of color management, gamma

thanks dave, but it sounds like this is something you havent dealt with a ton. i have kept hearing it suggested, but just having some troubles knowing when to get out of working in linear gamma

http://aeportal.blogspot.com/2009/12/understanding-linear-workflow.html

if anyone has anything to add on the above thread, it would be most helpful

thanks



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chad cottrellRe: linear workflow ?? -- coming from 7D footage
by on Jan 5, 2010 at 9:34:22 pm

Why would you be trying to work in such high color settings in AE, when your footage is (correct me if I'm wrong) no greater than 8-bit? Does the 7D shoot in something greater than that?

32-bit color space is even more extreme than what I would normally use when rendering broadcast-ready HD 3D animations. The files are huge, and they slow AE down.

If you were going to be introducing substantial effects over your footage, then perhaps I could see the need for the additional color space headroom. But, again, what is the bit depth that you're getting out of the 7D?


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Dave LaRondeRe: linear workflow ?? -- coming from 7D footage
by on Jan 5, 2010 at 9:43:24 pm

[chad cottrell] "Does the 7D shoot in something greater than that? "

It records to the h.264 codec. I'm pretty sure that's 8-bit. The footage was converted to ProRes, which can be either 8-bit or 10-bit; we don't know which.

So why work in a 32-bit comp when there's nothing at all to be gained by it? Beats me, but I've learned the hard way that these DSLR folks are something of a breed apart.

I just hope that for all the hoops this guy wants to jump through, he doesn't muck it up at the end. I hope he doesn't rely on those little pea-shooter viewers in FCP, but rather a video monitor capable of doing color grading.

Otherwise, all this obsessing about subtle variations in color isn't worth squat.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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jonas espinozaRe: linear workflow ?? -- coming from 7D footage
by on Jan 5, 2010 at 11:01:50 pm

no no no, i was using this as a basic test for working in linear color space. Ive been an AE guy for a while, i'm not some tumbleweed 'DSLR' guy making my first post on the cow about my first video.


http://prolost.com/blog/2005/1/26/color-correction-in-linear-vs-gamma-corre...

they say the reason for color correcting in linear space is it is more realistic and photographic. add modes are supposed to be more photographic and whites are supposed to stay white. obviously h.264 is what it is, but theres no reason to keep reintroducing h.264 math on it.

i thought linear work flows were all the rage these days, or dont you guys go to prolost etc.

http://prolost.com/blog/2006/2/7/linear-color-workflow-in-ae7-part-1.html

if anyone would like to add something helpful, im more than all ears



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Dave LaRondeRe: linear workflow ?? -- coming from 7D footage
by on Jan 5, 2010 at 11:21:45 pm

Well, if you're cutting in FCP 6 or later, you have probably the best color correction and grading software available, Apple's Color. Yeah, it's a ton to learn, but people who take the plunge swear by it.

And to tell you the truth, I hadn't heard of prolost before today because I don't deal with DSLR footage, I hadn't gotten the memo that linear color grading was all the rage, and there's already enough in AE to keep me busy for some time to come.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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cowcowcowcowcow
Todd KoprivaRe: linear workflow ?? -- coming from 7D footage
by on Jan 6, 2010 at 3:15:09 am

Just to clear something up: Working in a linear color space doesn't imply work in 32-bpc (bits per channel). Working in a linear color space just means that color operations are done in a color space in which values add together in a way that matches how light adds together in the real world.

We perceive and transmit colors/light in a non-linear way, which is why input and output formats are almost always "perceptually" (non-linearly) encoded. But intermediate compositing operations work better when they're done on values that are not "perceptually" encoded.

There's really nothing special for you to do to composite in a linear color space in After Effects other than checking an option in the Project Settings as described on this page. See this page for a little more information about linear light and tone response in general.

Now, to get to what your question really seems to be getting to: What color profile do you use for exporting? That's a fine question, but I'll repeat that it has nothing to do with the fact that you're compositing in linear light.

If your output is meant for someone to actually watch, then you choose your output color profile to match the system that they'll be using to watch it. See "Assign an output color profile".

If you are exporting an intermediate file for some visual effects work, and the person receiving the file expects it to be a linearly encoded file, then you should choose Convert To Linear Light. But it doesn't sound like that's what you're after.

If you want step-by-step instructions for working with color management and linear compositing, see this document and the overview provided here.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
putting the 'T' back in 'RTFM' : After Effects Help on the Web
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If a page of After Effects Help answers your question, please consider rating it. If you have a tip, technique, or link to share---or if there is something that you'd like to see added or improved---please leave a comment.


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jonas espinozaRe: linear workflow ?? -- coming from 7D footage
by on Jan 6, 2010 at 4:37:36 am

cool, thanks so much todd



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Jack JelichRe: linear workflow ?? -- coming from 7D footage
by on Mar 6, 2010 at 3:50:43 am

Another quick question in this vein Todd:

I've scoured the internet for an answer to this question but have been unsuccessful:
Does Magic Bullet Looks play nice in a 32bit work-flow?

I'm following the Adobe Whitepaper HDTV work-flow to the tee, yet when I open looks in my 32bit project in AECS4, it appears I'm being double gamma-ed!
I'm getting a nasty crushed image that doesn't correspond to what I see in after effects.

What am I missing?
Any thoughts would be much appreciated!


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